Author Topic: Ideal Catholic state (Read 13832 times)

Canuk the Lionheart · « **Reply #30 on:** February 19, 2011, 11:19:24 PM »

Ok, so our basic form of government will be German style feudalism like in the days of the Holy Roman Empire. We will have a group of land holding lords who will elect the next monarch from amongst themselves. And yes, we should name our nation after St Thomas Moore, it is fitting considering he wrote a philosophical tretis on creating an ideal society.

Kailyn · « **Reply #31 on:** February 19, 2011, 11:36:00 PM »

Quote

As for first principles, remember how I said the best, or ideal government would be the one that most resembles an image of the trinity?

I would like to unconditionally agree with this statement; but my question would be, is the "best" or "ideal" government possible? Perhaps there's some plan "laid up in heaven" that we can discuss, but can it be transcribed to an actual, real state given our imperfect human existence? (Which would make the Thomas Moore title very apropos).

Lybus · « **Reply #32 on:** February 20, 2011, 09:01:19 AM »

I spelled his name wrong; It's More, not Moore. Sorry about that.

Yes, the Holy Roman Empire did come to mind actually. Unfortunately, I don't know much about it as I would like save through my high school World History class (and you can guess what kind of opinion my teacher had on it).

And Kailyn, I would have to say no to your question, that it is impossible to have an ideal "State." an Ideal state would have citizens that committed no sin, in which case there would be no need for a government or state, so the ideal "state" would be no state.
Our goal is to form a government that takes into account man's sin and reaches towards an ideal state, though not really reaching it perfectly. At least, that's how it would be realistically. We are trying to get as close to an ideal state as possible, and I think looking at what the Holy Ghost has done on Earth is the closest possible we can go.

Kailyn · « **Reply #33 on:** February 20, 2011, 01:14:03 PM »

Hmmmm... problem is I believe we can get closer in speech to the ideal state than we can in the real world, based upon a perfect model. And that seems doomed to failure.

Also, I think our use of the word "state" presumes too much, if we really are trying to build the best possible city.

Lybus · « **Reply #34 on:** February 20, 2011, 04:57:46 PM »

Quote from: Kailyn

Hmmmm... problem is I believe we can get closer in speech to the ideal state than we can in the real world, based upon a perfect model. And that seems doomed to failure.

Also, I think our use of the word "state" presumes too much, if we really are trying to build the best possible city.

I"m not entirely sure what you mean. Could you clarify?

gladius_veritatis · « **Reply #35 on:** February 20, 2011, 05:56:24 PM »

In several of his works, Fr. Denis Fahey outlines the main points that make for a rightly-ordered state. I will see if I can find an online version to post here. IMO, such a framework is the best place to begin a discussion like this one.

Kailyn · « **Reply #36 on:** February 20, 2011, 07:12:02 PM »

Lybus, I totally misread what you wrote, so please ignore what I was saying, it's not pertinent. I thought you were being a whole lot less realistic than you actually are.

I would be very interested to see this outline. Hope you can find it gladius_veritatis.

Until then, I had several comments/questions, and I do apologize for the somewhat fractured nature I know this post will have.

First things first. This post was begun as a "a philosophical experiment with my fellow traditional Catholics." This raises the question, at least in my mind, of the relation between the political and the philosophic, and to what degree they are compatible. I'm inclined to believe that they ultimately are, but that they are anything but easily paired.

I also really liked the point brought up about having "saintly kings" and what will be required to have them, though I personally don't feel ready to leap that far ahead in the discussion. It seems like first we'd need to bang out more on the family's relation to the city, the structure of that family, and education of children.

There were also several comments regarding the family, and this seems to be a very important starting issue - the relationship between the family and th city, or the private realm and the common good. The city necessarily requires people to attend to the common good, and this can come at a cost to the private realm. The prime example of this is war. Citizens must defend their city, even if doing do requires the sacrifice of their own lives. This... doesn't seem to be in the best interest of the individual. Of course, in a Catholic state, there are religious reasons to spur the individual on, but it seems there is still a tension there. (By the way, can we agree that every human being naturally seeks his own happiness?) The family represents a potential challenge to the common good, with a father inclined to place the good of his loved one above that of other citizens, and the city itself.

Lybus, I'm still very interested in this tripartite division you're proposing - do you think you could explain any more of it?

gladius_veritatis · « **Reply #37 on:** February 20, 2011, 07:25:38 PM »

Well, here is a very short version:

1. The Catholic Church, Supernatural and Supranational, is the ONE way established by God for the ordered return of human beings to Him. ALL states and nations are bound to acknowledge it as such, and all men of all nations are called upon to enter it as Members of Christ.

2. The Catholic Church is the SOLE divinely-appointed guardian of the whole moral law, natural and revealed.

3. Christian Marriage, the foundation of the Christian family, as the symbol of the union of Christ and His Mystical Body, is ONE and INDISSOLUBLE.

4. Children must be educated as Members of Christ's Mystical Body so that they may be able to look at everything, nationality included, from that standpoint.

5. Ownership of property should be widely diffused in order to facilitate families in procuring a sufficiency of material goods for their members. Unions of owners and workers in Guilds will reflect the solidarity of the Mystical Body of Christ.

6. The Monetary System of a country is meant to be at the service of production in view of the virtuous life of Members of Christ in happy families.

The essential ideas are all there:

The proper attitude of the state toward Holy Church, the need for a rightly-ordered monetary system that SERVES production (which, in turn, serves the needs of men), framing laws so they promote/protect Christian marriage, family life, Christian education, laborers, etc.

He expands a great deal upon these points in his books, one of which is already in the Library section of this site.

Kailyn · « **Reply #38 on:** February 20, 2011, 07:30:09 PM »

Not sure if I'm ready to dive into 5 and 6.

gladius_veritatis · « **Reply #39 on:** February 20, 2011, 07:33:23 PM »

There is neither obligation nor rush to do so :)

Canuk the Lionheart · « **Reply #40 on:** February 21, 2011, 04:50:13 AM »

Ok let's tackle, number one on the list. All, Catholics are part of the Body of Christ, and our official state religion. How will non Catholics be treated and what will be the standing of other religions?

Urban1095 · « **Reply #41 on:** March 04, 2011, 07:11:56 PM »

Quote from: Canuk the Lionheart

Hi, this is Crusading Canuk (lost password for old account..) anyways, I just wanted to try a philosophical experiment with my fellow traditional Catholics. Imagine we are starting a new nation to be based on Catholic principals. Which political system would we use, economics, immigration, armed forces etc...

1. American

2. Democratic

3. Constitutional, with Bill of Rights

4. Secular government, based on Enlightenment principles

:geezer: :dancing: :cheers:

Catholic Samurai · « **Reply #42 on:** March 04, 2011, 07:50:55 PM »

Quote from: Urban1095

Quote from: Canuk the Lionheart
Hi, this is Crusading Canuk (lost password for old account..) anyways, I just wanted to try a philosophical experiment with my fellow traditional Catholics. Imagine we are starting a new nation to be based on Catholic principals. Which political system would we use, economics, immigration, armed forces etc...

1. American

2. Democratic

3. Constitutional, with Bill of Rights

4. Secular government, based on Enlightenment principles

:geezer: :dancing: :cheers:

Put down your MJ and sober up.

Kailyn · « **Reply #43 on:** March 05, 2011, 10:23:49 PM »

Quote from: Urban1095

4. Secular government, based on Enlightenment principles

Which principles?

Catholic Samurai · « **Reply #44 on:** March 05, 2011, 10:43:42 PM »

Quote from: Kailyn

Quote from: Urban1095

4. Secular government, based on Enlightenment principles

Which principles?

Separation of Church and state perhaps?