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Author Topic: VII and Ecuмenical councils  (Read 3487 times)

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Offline Desmond

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VII and Ecuмenical councils
« Reply #15 on: January 11, 2016, 03:28:31 PM »
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  • Quote from: confederate catholic


    the first councils are clear that patriarchs are heads of their particular churches. cardinals are not as old an institution as the patriarchates.


    Ok, but those particular churches are/were then in Schism and NOT part of the Catholic Church.

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    the church itself held them non ecuмenical as i pointed out this position not ratifying 4 Const. until 200 years later,
     how then could its decisions have been retroactively infallible? as i pointed out the bishops of France and Spain refused to confirm the acts of the last Lateran council,how could they do this if those councils were truly ecuмenical?



    Of course it this was true, a corollary would be that the Catholic Church is defective and incomplete, and does not coincide with the Church of Christ, as NewChurch informally recognises.

    Basic "Christian Unity" (the original Church) could only be reached with reconciliation with the other 4 patriarchates.

    Offline confederate catholic

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    VII and Ecuмenical councils
    « Reply #16 on: January 13, 2016, 11:06:34 AM »
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  • .I am pretty sure that cardinals in the age of the reformation know that the other patriarchates were seperated.  The councils are then held as general and not ecuмenical. This makes Rome just as whole and complete.
    قامت مريم، ترتيل وفاء جحا و سلام جحا


    Offline Desmond

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    VII and Ecuмenical councils
    « Reply #17 on: January 13, 2016, 01:39:33 PM »
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  • Quote from: confederate catholic
    .I am pretty sure that cardinals in the age of the reformation know that the other patriarchates were seperated.  The councils are then held as general and not ecuмenical. This makes Rome just as whole and complete.

    No it does not, as it implies that Rome (the Papacy) is unable to hold Ecuмenical Councils, on its own, and as a corollary that the Church is incomplete without some (an arbitrary number) or all other historical Sees.


    Offline confederate catholic

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    VII and Ecuмenical councils
    « Reply #18 on: January 14, 2016, 03:30:53 PM »
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    No it does not, as it implies that Rome (the Papacy) is unable to hold Ecuмenical Councils, on its own, and as a corollary that the Church is incomplete without some (an arbitrary number) or all other historical Sees


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    Commentators on the Decretum, known as the Decretists, generally concluded that a pope could change the disciplinary decrees of the ecuмenical councils but was bound by their pronouncements on articles of faith, in which field the authority of a general council was higher than that of an individual pope. Unlike those who propounded the 15th-century conciliarist theories, they understood an ecuмenical council as necessarily involving the pope, and meant that the pope plus the other bishops was greater than a pope acting alone[/i]


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    John Henry Newman, while personally convinced, as a matter of theological opinion, of papal infallibility, opposed its definition as dogma, fearing that the definition might be expressed in over-broad terms open to misunderstanding. He was pleased with the moderate tone of the actual definition, which "affirmed the pope's infallibility only within a strictly limited province: the doctrine of faith and morals initially given to the apostolic Church and handed down in Scripture and tradition."[/i]


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    Communion with the bishop of Rome does not imply submission to an authority which would stifle the distinctive features of the local churches. The purpose of the episcopal function of the bishop of Rome is to promote Christian fellowship in faithfulness to the teaching of the apostles


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    As for the Roman claim that the pope possesses universal immediate jurisdiction over the life of the local churches (the limits of which are not clearly specified), many Christians fear that this jurisdiction may be subject to an illegitimate and uncontrolled use[/i]. This "universal immediate jurisdiction" should be exercised, however, not in isolation, but in collegial association with his brother bishops, who are equally concerned for the unity and truth of the universal Church (the result of their office and not of their association with the bishop of Rome).

    Yet the bishop of Rome, the Windsor statement declares, has the right in special cases to intervene in the affairs of a diocese and to receive appeals from the decision of a diocesan bishop. It is because the universal primate, in collegial association with his fellow bishops, has the task of safeguarding the faith and the unity of the universal Church that the diocesan bishop is subject to his authority.

    However this kind of authority, although it is defined not as autocratic power over the Church, but as a service in and to the Church, which is a communion in faith and charity of local churches, needs in its practical application to be safeguarded against any abuses which may lead to suppression of theological and liturgical traditions of which the bishop of Rome does not approve.


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    Based on Christian Tradition, it is possible to affirm the validity of the church of Rome's claims of universal primacy. Orthodox theology, however, objects to the identification of this primacy as "supreme power" transforming Rome into the principium radix et origio of the unity of the Church and of the Church itself. The Church from the first days of its existence undeniably possessed an ecuмenical center of unity and agreement. In the apostolic and Judaeo Christian period this center was first the church of Jerusalem and later the church of Rome "presiding in agape" according to St Ignatios of Antioch


    how the pope uses his jurisdiction has not been defined obviously you must be against the abuse of this power in Vatican II
    قامت مريم، ترتيل وفاء جحا و سلام جحا

    Offline confederate catholic

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    VII and Ecuмenical councils
    « Reply #19 on: January 14, 2016, 03:32:04 PM »
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  • From Vatican I- even they see a difference between councils

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    the ecuмenical councils, particularly those in which East and West met in the union of faith and charity,
    قامت مريم، ترتيل وفاء جحا و سلام جحا