Catholic Info
Traditional Catholic Faith => Politics and World Leaders => Topic started by: Matthew on March 21, 2010, 11:28:37 PM
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Unbelievable -- especially this part:
Applause and chants of "Yes we can" erupted from the Democratic side of the House chamber as the vote on health care neared passage.
What, are our legislators, our elected officials, a mindless mob now reduced to chanting 1-syllable slogans like a mob with a congregate IQ of about 50?
(You know how the IQ of a mob is inversely proportional to its number -- that is, the larger the mob, the lower the IQ.)
Matthew
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How is all this government health care is going to be
paid for. Higher taxes, and hoping that china will
continue to purchase our debt, and treasury
bonds. In return, we buy cheap goods made
by slave labor from walmart.
The socialist democrats knows that this new
government health care is going to fail,
because it is designed to fail.
The purpose is designed to bankrupt the
economy, so the country can be merged into
a one world government.
In a one world government, only the wealthy
will get proper medical care.
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The one world government already happened, you're living in it and have been for some time now.
People think that the "nєω ωσrℓ∂ σr∂єr" will be somehow opposed to American freedom. No, the nєω ωσrℓ∂ σr∂єr, Universal Democracy, IS American freedom. It is our separation of Church and state and the rise of the Jєωιѕн money power over all nations. The Jєωs have been trying to dissolve the monarchies for a long time, as well as the Catholic dogmas, and that has been accomplished. Our time is one of near-total dissolution.
Do you know why Jєωs hate Catholic monarchies? Because while Jєωs could rise to be ministers and stewards, their blood kept them from being kings and queens. That is why they are always behind democratic movements. It is democracy people should fear, as well as communism, although they are part of the same movement.
I don't think that the socialist system they've set up will last very long. Either this is the end of the world and Anti-Christ appears soon, like right after Ratzinger, or we head into the Minor Chastisement. If the latter is the case, then America simply goes down, taking much of Europe with it, while a remnant is left to recover. I go back and forth on this. Well, it's not for us to know. It does feel like the time of the Flood that Christ says will mark the end of the world, almost exactly, bleak and desolate and wasted.
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Won't this allow force vaccinations? If so America is in trouble. PS our economy WILL with out a doubt collapse in a few years due to this great disaster that has been passed.
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Unbelievable -- especially this part:
Applause and chants of "Yes we can" erupted from the Democratic side of the House chamber as the vote on health care neared passage.
What, are our legislators, our elected officials, a mindless mob now reduced to chanting 1-syllable slogans like a mob with a congregate IQ of about 50?
(You know how the IQ of a mob is inversely proportional to its number -- that is, the larger the mob, the lower the IQ.)
Matthew
largely, yes they-and most AMericans-are mindless low IQ mob.....
even "conservatives" kept ringing the cahnt "no socialised health care", ignoring the many yrs they increased, supported and ignored Medicaid, Medicare, etc,etc....which is govt controlled medicine.......conservatives are as stupid as liberals, just less passionate.....
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One just wonders exactly how stupid the masses out there really are. If you have the brains of a vegetable, how can anyone think that the government can give or pay for everyone's ANYTHING? The money simply doesn't exist!
And how can these vegetables (no insult to the vegetable kingdom intended) possibly miss or fail to realize, that if you have everyone in the country flooding the system, there will be obscene waiting lists for EVERYTHING?
It's just ridiculous. It is literally as though the majority of people alive today have the IQ of about a 4 year old. They just nod and smile, whatever the left tells them. It's incredible! I know it's bad out there, but... every time it really hits me in the face like this, it's just amazing to experience the reality of this... that people really ARE that dumb. And it's terrifying, because those very dumb people, are now running the country!
It's just unfathomable that there are scores of obvious, common sense problems with the very idea being proposed, and that so many people... and especially those supposedly smart enough to run the country... have just missed all of them. (Again, except those pulling the strings.)
It's the one thing I will never understand about real-life bad guys... in order to be one, it is a prerequisite that you have to be incredibly stupid and ignorant about whatever it is you are trying to do wrong. How so many people go that way, is just unfathomable. (Except when I consider the problem of human temptation to be stupid rather than to be moral.)
All I can say is, I just hope that if they get away with this, and it isn't stopped somehow in the courts or whatever because of it's unconstitutional nature, that when the very real consequences of this literal insanity hitting up against reality begin to come down on us, people will wake up at some point and say "this is nuts". I know it's been inflicted on other countries, and they're just putting up with it but... this is America. This country was founded by rebellion, essentially. So I guess I'm hoping that when push comes to shove, and reality comes to bear on these idiots, that there will be enough guts left in the country for it to correct itself.
Of course, probably in order for this particular flavor of errors to stop spreading throughout the world (as Our Lady said they would be), Russia needs to be consecrated. And I really am beginning to think that this is what it will take. I just hope Bishop Fellay or someone will point out that things are happening and continuing to happen as Our Lady said they would, without REAL compliance to her request.
If man will not have God (the REAL God and His REAL religion) to rule over them, then man WILL embrace the vain and destructive and tyrannical quest for the impossible Utopia. There is no other option. Godlessness EQUALS this garbage. We WILL have the one, or else we WILL have the other.
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As long as their is tv, americans will not rebel. Most people will tolerate anything as long as they can eat and be entertained. I am not saying that they will have full bellies, but as long as they can subside on just enough food, then no rebellion. Most of the people I know would happily put and guard their neighbor in a prison or death camp, if it meant that they and their family could continue eating fairly well and watch tv. The Russians that put millions into death camps and gulags where far more moral than the Americans of today.
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What item(s) in this legislation as got you all so whipped up into a frenzy ?
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The legislation doesn't bother me. It will insure more americans.
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I want all those that are against the bill that recieve any sort of government money to be honest and send it all back. They should have the courage of their convictions. All medicare and medicaid recipients, send the money back. All government workers on the health insurance dole, send the money back. All gov pensioners, send the money back. All soldiers and those that use the VA, send the money back. All those that receive any gov tax breaks and other wealth transfers, write a check to Caesar. I am sick of the fox news hypocrits on this issue.
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I forgot Social security, food stamps, and house loans.
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Anyone who has ever worked for the gov and lived off the dime of those that do not, please send the money back. Anyone who has ever been to the ER and caused my insurance premiums to go up, please cut me a check.
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The legislation doesn't bother me. It will insure more americans.
It should bother you that it will greatly expand abortion and corrupt medicine even more than it is now.
My brother is in medical school. This is bad news for the future.
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I mean those that have gone to the ER and not paid their bill and caused my insurance premium to go up.
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In this wicked country, anyone that wants an abortion now can get one. It will not cause millions of more abortions.
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Abortions are free to the poor now already.
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It should bother you that it will greatly expand abortion and corrupt medicine even more than it is now.
How does it do that, how does it expand abortion and corrupt medecine... ?
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Those trad Catholics that have children with pre-existing conditions are going to be very thankful for this bill.
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Seems like we agree on at least one thing Sedetrad. I'm still genuinely interested to read a reasoned and thoughtful argument that would justify all the anger and the fear I see.
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It should bother you that it will greatly expand abortion and corrupt medicine even more than it is now.
How does it do that, how does it expand abortion and corrupt medecine... ?
Let me get this straight: it passed only when Stupak caved, but it does nothing to advance abortion?
If that's the case why was there controversy over Stupak's amendment?
Obama was willing to risk the whole program over abortion: that tells me everything I need to know.
Don't play the dishonest skeptic/retard.
Corruption of medicine occurs when doctors are compelled to do immoral things. This bill will great increase the compulsion to do such things.
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I have yet to read one.
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Seems like we agree on at least one thing Sedetrad. I'm still genuinely interested to read a reasoned and thoughtful argument that would justify all the anger and the fear I see.
You are lying. You don't care about euthanasia, abortion or rationing.
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Rationing exists under the current system. Abortion occurs under the current system. Euthanasia occurs under the current system. If you do not understand that, then I don't knwo what to say.
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Rationing exists under the current system. Abortion occurs under the current system. Euthanasia occurs under the current system. If you do not understand that, then I don't knwo what to say.
Yes, I know it does. I also know that this bill will make all of those things worse.
You can't be Catholic and support it.
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How does it do that, how does it expand abortion and corrupt medecine... ?
Corruption of medicine occurs when doctors are compelled to do immoral things. This bill will great increase the compulsion to do such things.[/quote]
Justified or not, the Stupak bloc was concerned that the bill could or would allow for Federal money to found abortions and they decided to sign (or cave in as you say) when Obama signed a decree stating (it was actually a restatement) that Federal money cannot fund abortions. It's that simple.
Corruption of medicine occurs when doctors are compelled to do immoral things. This bill will great increase the compulsion to do such things.
You mean I suppose abortions, but it does not make a difference on abortions, as far that I can tell. How does this bill compel to do immoral things ? If you don't know, why just not stop the conversation rather then calling me names.
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Justified or not, the Stupak bloc was concerned that the bill could or would allow for Federal money to found abortions and they decided to sign (or cave in as you say) when Obama signed a decree stating (it was actually a restatement) that Federal money cannot fund abortions. It's that simple.
If the executive order was equivalent to the Stupak amendment they could have just accepted that amendment. The executive order can be rescinded at any time. Even the Catholic Bishops oppose the bill as it is.
You mean I suppose abortions, but it does not make a difference on abortions, as far that I can tell. How does this bill compel to do immoral things ? If you don't know, why just not stop the conversation rather then calling me names.
You are a liar if you do not acknowledge the agenda of Obama on this issue. I'm not going to waste any time on you. If Obama had his way Catholics wouldn't be allowed to practise medicine in good conscience. That is certain beyond any reasonable doubt.
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Yes, I know it does. I also know that this bill will make all of those things worse.
But how ? Are you referring to Palin's "death panels" ? I won't even argue with you, even though I am convinced that those are bunk. I just want to understand the anger.
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You are a liar...
How can I lie just by asking questions ?
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I just want to understand the anger.
If you really want to understand, it might help if someone broke your face with his fist.
It is common knowledge that the removal of all sorts of conscience clauses, the subsidy of abortion, the practice of euthanasia are all things heartily supported by liberals in all countries with socialized medicine.
You say you don't understand the anger. I don't believe you.
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You are a liar...
How can I lie just by asking questions ?
It's easy to lie by asking questions. That question itself is dishonest because it pretends ignorance.
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It is common knowledge that the removal of all sorts of conscience clauses, the subsidy of abortion, the practice of euthanasia are all things heartily supported by liberals in all countries with socialized medicine.
But there is no removal of conscience clause, no subsidy of abortion, and no legalization in the bill for euthanasia... is there ?
The position of the USCCB is as follows
In our Catholic tradition, health care is a basic human right. Access to health care should not depend on where a person works, how much a family earns, or where a person lives. Instead, every person, created in the image and likeness of God, has a right to life and to those things necessary to sustain life, including affordable, quality health care. This teaching is rooted in the biblical call to heal the sick and to serve "the least of these," our concern for human life and dignity, and the principle of the common good. Unfortunately, tens of millions of Americans do not have health insurance. According to the Catholic bishops of the United States, the current health care system is in need of fundamental reform
http://www.usccb.org/healthcare/position.shtml
It really boils down to this... does this bill fund or subsidize abortions. I don't see that it does, but I'm willing to read otherwise.
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Rationing exists under the current system. Abortion occurs under the current system. Euthanasia occurs under the current system. If you do not understand that, then I don't know what to say.
True, but I belive forced vaccinations may occur due to this bill. If the gov. grows that can not be good for Catholics. What is next if the Feds. can tell us what hospital to go to and when to be vaccinated? Perhaps they willl try to controll education next, force homeschoolers into public schools. This bill spells disaster.
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It's easy to lie by asking questions. That question itself is dishonest because it pretends ignorance.
I see what you mean... but it's not my intent.
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It is common knowledge that the removal of all sorts of conscience clauses, the subsidy of abortion, the practice of euthanasia are all things heartily supported by liberals in all countries with socialized medicine.
But there is no removal of conscience clause, no subsidy of abortion, and no legalization in the bill for euthanasia... is there ?
The position of the USCCB is as follows
In our Catholic tradition, health care is a basic human right. Access to health care should not depend on where a person works, how much a family earns, or where a person lives. Instead, every person, created in the image and likeness of God, has a right to life and to those things necessary to sustain life, including affordable, quality health care. This teaching is rooted in the biblical call to heal the sick and to serve "the least of these," our concern for human life and dignity, and the principle of the common good. Unfortunately, tens of millions of Americans do not have health insurance. According to the Catholic bishops of the United States, the current health care system is in need of fundamental reform
http://www.usccb.org/healthcare/position.shtml
It really boils down to this... does this bill fund or subsidize abortions. I don't see that it does, but I'm willing to read how it does.
I'd like to know what the USCCB has done for tradition. These sort of articles are worthless to me. Most American Bishops give communion to pro- abort. polititians.
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I'd like to know what the USCCB has done for tradition. These sort of articles are worthless to me. Most American Bishops give communion to pro- abort. polititians.
TheD, I only posted because it was portrayed as if they were holding a very different position.
I appreciate that you fear mass vaccination, but I fail to see how this bill contributes to that possibility.
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I would have to read more closely, I am not sure if it says anything about vaccinations, but it is possible.
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I do not know enough about this bill to speak of any potential harm it will do, but was pleased with the message we received this morning from our health care support.
We belong to a cost-sharing group which is not insurance -- Christian Healthcare Ministries. Members share the costs associated with major medical issues and pay for their own smaller things like routine office visits. Early on, they were concerned that this legislation would eliminate CHM by requiring members to obtain insurance. However, the bill allows for participation in this group to meet the "insured" requirement.
I don't know how the pre-existing condition rules will apply to them. Presently, as a rule pre-existing conditions aren't shared by members of the program. Participation might eventually cost us more, but it seems they won't be outright eliminated by the bill.
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The legislation doesn't bother me. It will insure more americans.
No it won't. It will PROMISE to... but it won't be able to fulfill that promise, because there isn't enough money to keep social security and medicare going, let alone to fund anything even remotely like this. And just where do you suppose the magic money will come from? Oh... that's right... our pockets. Oh, and with so many more people trying to GET health care, with there being still only so many doctors, there will be obscenely-long waiting lists to GET that medical care. Like in every other country that has national health care. And the list goes on. To say nothing of the unconstitutionality of FORCING people to buy health care. Whether they want it or not. Also to say nothing of the doors it opens to the government, who will (everyone thinks) be paying for this, to then regulate every aspect of our lives by law, in order to ensure our "health" even further.
The problems with this thing are a long, long list. The least of them, perhaps, is the obvious idiocy in overlooking that we can neither pay for this, nor can we (given the limited number of doctors, who will be UNDERPAID for their services, driving them into financial crisis) rationally add so many individuals into the mix, when there are already waiting lists for life saving measures like transplants. It's hard enough to get that heart transplant when THIS many people need that heart. When that number doubles or triples or what not, how easy will it be for your loved one to get it THEN? We'll go from SOME people getting the care they need, to everyone getting crappy care, if they can get care before it's too late at ALL.
Look at any country with this kind of thing, and you can see the disaster in action. Which is why, until now, people have been coming to the US for health care. No waiting lists. None of the crap they have to put up with back home. Just go, pay, and get treated wherever and by whomever you want. Not for long, though.
All communistic/socialistic/utopian schemes begin or are founded upon a seemingly well meaning principal. Just like eugenics wanted with all of the good intentions in the world (in their warped heads), to eliminate racial minorities by abortion. The problem is, whatever the rosy intentions, these things do not work, and are not just or right or good.
Stealing is a sin. Justice is every man keeping the fruits of his labors. Communism is stealing or forcing people to part with what is rightfully and justly theirs, in the name of everyone supposedly getting a free lunch. In the end, only the guys at the top get anything like the lunch everyone had in mind, for free, while everyone else gets to eat dirt, even after they are forced to give up everything they have to get it.
There is nothing moral about stealing by force the wealth of the many, to pay for those who unfortunately were not able to afford medical care. This is not charity. This is theft. And people will suffer for it. The idea of "no more poverty" or "no more hunger" or "no more sickness" or the like, are all empty dreams that are not possible under anything but total Catholicism. Welcome to reality. This isn't heaven, this is Earth. Heaven is the next place. Here we suffer, get sick and die. Even good communists who pay all they have for everyone's everything.
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I am sorry that having more people get medical care will make it less likely for you to get your organ transplant as quickly as you would if those people were not insured and thrown into the street.
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Our system has been stealing and redistributing for along time. If this will help those poor people I know get better medical care, then it is fine by be. I am sorry that you may have to suffer inconvenience as a result. We don't live in a Catholic soiety WE LIVE IN A SATANIC one. I am just trying to see as many people helped as possible in an evil system.
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I am taxed to support a military that is far larger than is necessary to defend my nation. I do not complain. I am taxed to support the medical bills of the elderly and pay for their 1 million dollar medical bills in the last years of their life. I do not complain. This theft bill does not bother me in the least in comparision to all others that have come before it.
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The I won't get the best and most costly medical care that I and my family deserve because these other poverty stricken slubs are now getting care is a sick argument for your position.
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Dulcamara, help me out... is there really people who adamantly don't want health insurance ? Who are these people...
Why do they so stubbornly don't want insurance ? Do you think they are reasonable people ? This concept is so bizarre to me.
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But there is no removal of conscience clause, no subsidy of abortion, and no legalization in the bill for euthanasia... is there ?
Yes there are all of those things in there. Whether you admit it or not.
I said even the bishops came out against the bill and they did.
Anyway, you haven't explained why the Stupak amendment was rejected.
If you can't explain that then you can't argue the bill doesn't fund abortion.
If you can't explain that then you are proving yourself to be a liar.
You are stinking, filthy rat liar and child murder supporting piece of shit.
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Dulcamara, help me out... is there really people who adamantly don't want health insurance ? Who are these people...
Why do they so stubbornly don't want insurance ? Do you think they are reasonable people ? This concept is so bizarre to me.
We don't want a government controlled health system. What's hard to understand about that?
You and the child murdering rats who want to fund abortion couldn't accept the Stupak amendment. Because they support child murder.
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I am taxed to support a military that is far larger than is necessary to defend my nation. I do not complain. I am taxed to support the medical bills of the elderly and pay for their 1 million dollar medical bills in the last years of their life. I do not complain. This theft bill does not bother me in the least in comparision to all others that have come before it.
You can't support a bill that does these evil things regardless of any good you think may come of it.
That's the bottom line.
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There is no use in discussing this further, as some clearly have lost their wits.
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There is no use in discussing this further, as some clearly have lost their wits.
If the bill does not fund abortion then the Stupak amendment would be acceptable.
Since the Stupak amendment was not accepted it is proof that the bill does fund abortion.
It's not losing my wits to call you stinking, lying, filthy, child murder supporting garbage.
It's just the truth. You and abortionist rats scurrying around feeding on the limbs of aborted fetuses funded by tax payers in the name of health insurance are a deadly plague.
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Well, I guess I did get to the source of your anger, which was my original question. :laugh1:
I appreciate your passion, and encourage you to use this to dig deeper into the bill in finding in what way this bill will provide federal money to fund abortions.
In my view, the Stupak amendment was not really necessary, and it's purpose was to reassure the constituents of those conservatives democrats up for reelection that were pressured by pro-life groups. But current laws already prohibits the use of federal funds for abortions. This Bill only maintains the status quo, and in addition, there is that decree signed by the President.
Now you may say I lie, but this can be fact-checked by anyone for accuracy. My conscience is crystal clear.
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In my view, the Stupak amendment was not really necessary,
If it was "unnecessary" then why did it hold up the bill?
and it's purpose was to reassure the constituents of those conservatives democrats up for reelection that were pressured by pro-life groups.
It obviously did more than reassure if the Democrats were willing to risk the success of the whole bill on refusing it.
But current laws already prohibits the use of federal funds for abortions. This Bill only maintains the status quo, and in addition, there is that decree signed by the President.
What you're saying is undoubtedly incorrect or misleading, and you still haven't explained why the Stupak amendment was unacceptable.
Now you may say I lie, but this can be fact-checked by anyone for accuracy. My conscience is crystal clear.
Crystal clear even though you brushed aside explaining why the Stupak Amendment was considered unacceptable. No, I don't think so.
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Our system has been stealing and redistributing for along time. If this will help those poor people I know get better medical care, then it is fine by be. I am sorry that you may have to suffer inconvenience as a result. We don't live in a Catholic soiety WE LIVE IN A SATANIC one. I am just trying to see as many people helped as possible in an evil system.
One may never do evil that good may come of it. Read the bill, and then see if you would still like the poor to be helped by the working of that much evil.
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Our system has been stealing and redistributing for along time. If this will help those poor people I know get better medical care, then it is fine by be. I am sorry that you may have to suffer inconvenience as a result. We don't live in a Catholic soiety WE LIVE IN A SATANIC one. I am just trying to see as many people helped as possible in an evil system.
One may never do evil that good may come of it. Read the bill, and then see if you would still like the poor to be helped by the working of that much evil.
I can't see anyone getting helped from this bill. But I am still amazed at how so many buy into the media hype about obama. Its almost like a fairy tale: obama is seen as a crusader against a corrupt system when in reality he is part of that system. No Catholic can support obama.
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Some links explaining the anti-Christian aspects of the bill:
http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2010/mar/10031505.html
even if the Stupak amendment had been accepted the bill would still be unacceptable:
http://www.all.org/newsroom_judieblog.php?id=2844
As I said, my brother is in medical school. It's very sad to think he may well be driven out of medicine when these anti-Christian totalitarians take over the field.
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Dulcamara, help me out... is there really people who adamantly don't want health insurance ? Who are these people...
Why do they so stubbornly don't want insurance ? Do you think they are reasonable people ? This concept is so bizarre to me.
Well, if the government were a magical machine that produces wealth and benevolently shares it, then yes, I'm sure all of us would say "sign me up!" But since the government has to squeeze the money, dollar by dollar out of already increasingly poor families, and in this case, for a goal we cannot possibly afford in reality even then... I dare say nobody wants to be taxed to death, and nobody really wants the little health care they CAN afford to be absolute crap, because of the complete ruin of the field of health care as a whole... which is what the garbage in this bill is about.
This is what's funny/strange to me... The democrats are just seething over what they see as the "evil republicans who don't want poor, helpless people to have free health care". Two little things I'd like to point out to you. #1... if I have an emergency, the emergency room can not refuse to treat me, even if I do not have the first red cent. #2... republicans (and myself) are not against everyone getting treated by doctors and being well... IF IT WERE POSSIBLE TO MAKE THIS HAPPEN!
The problem is, it is NOT possible to make this happen. And the government is trying to employ unjust, unconstitutional and unethical means of TRYING to do it, when it CAN NOT WORK. And when it goes against God's law of justice to do what they are trying to do. Justice does NOT say that every man shall enjoy the same circuмstances! Justice DOES say, the authority of the government to steal our money or rule our lives by law, is LIMITED. Authority comes from God, and is there pretty much only to back up God's laws, and keep order in society. NOT to take over everyone's lives in a vain attempt to override the circuмstances God gave to every individual man, and build an impossible heaven on earth.
If the money and the number of doctors (who magically did not have to make a living) could suddenly appear... great! What rotten bast@rd WOULDN'T want that?! Unfortunately, what happens is....
1) taxes will be raised until many of us are pushed to the financial breaking point (or over it, if we're there already).
2) there will not be enough doctors to treat all of the new people who will be rushing to get this "free" medical care, so EVERYONE will have to wait. This means if you need health care in a non-emergency state (that is, if you're not bleeding out of every pore), but you really do need care like... NOW... that's just too bad. Because 800 other people will be in line before you. (or your poor friends). So if your organs fail or you die in the meantime, well... tough luck, pal. Have a nice wait. And that will go for all of the poor people out there, who are now thinking (idiotically) that they're going to be first in line.
3) Because it is paid for "by the government" (BS, but whatever...), the government will stick it's nose into every aspect of our personal lives, with LEGAL AUTHORITY, in the name of policing the health care it must then pay for. If they can hook it up to some health risk, they'll be able to find the excuse to regulate just about anything by law. And like a dirty minded person can turn anything into something dirty, the same will happen with the connections related to your health. ALL of your life will be connected (supposedly) to it, somehow, and therefore all of your life will be fair game for government regulation in the name of public health interests and keeping costs down. (Sorry. That's no saint in the white house.)
4) Since the government is paying for it, everything must be cheaper... TOO cheap. Like with what's happening with the Walgreens stores who are now refusing new medicare patients for subscriptions, because the government is refusing to pay them enough to cover even the costs of the medicines themselves. Imagine this happening to the entire health care industry. And the guy who gets ripped off is just supposed to suck it up and go bankrupt, I guess. Only problem is, the people getting ripped off in the middle does NOT have bottomless pockets, no matter what initials they have before their names. What happens when all of the proverbial Wallgreenses go bankrupt, because the government mandates they must allow the people to rip them off into bankruptcy? Now apply that to doctors, to providers of medical devices, etc.. How long do you think there will be doctors who are willing to LOOSE money to do what they do for a living, or else go to jail or face fines for NOT agreeing to do so?
5) Looking at the problem of doctors, just imagine all of the new ones (qualified or not ) that will have to be passed on through the educational system half-baked, so that it even LOOKS like there's enough of them to cover all the people who will be overloading the system.
And so forth. These are the kinds of problems that people are objecting to. Not the idea of poor people getting treated. But the FACT that the proposed solution is, in reality, a disaster, covered up by the smoke and mirrors of everybody's bleeding heart and rosy intentions. Problem is, the REALITY is what we'll all be living with, not the fantasy world where money grows on trees (and not in the pockets of the poor families we're supposedly championing here)... the reality where the government is NOT run by benevolent people, but by people who would rather have a police state than a free state. YOUR intentions may be noble as they come. But the intentions of the people who think all money should go to and be dished out by the government, along with every other aspect or "freedom" in your life, are not so noble.
Liberalism, if it is anything, is the mindset that all people are incompetent, rebellious morons, who are better off slaves of a nanny/police state, and servants of a super-rich elite who shears the sheep under them. Common sense says, we cannot agree with these people when they try to accomplish just that, no matter WHAT they claim their intentions are. Their intentions may have wonderful appearances, and quite often sound very well and good. But their actions are all bent toward that same mindset. That you and I should work day in and day out, send all our money in to them, and then let them run every aspect of our lives, or else.
If they set up a group to eliminate Catholics by killing them, and called it "the committee for protection of religious rights," doubtless a good many well meaning idiots who happen to be Catholics would vote for it, while condemning those who are opposed, yelling "YOU JUST HATE CATHOLICS!" Well, hope you've made your peace, because after the well-intentioned vote comes the hellish reality.
It's not the appearances or the fantasy vision of some good thing being realized as if by magic that is the problem. The problem is the reality under the appearances or utopian vision. The devil is ALWAYS in the details. And this is no exception.
The best way to get fools to swallow lies is to simply wrap them up in some token truth. The best way to get fools to accept bad laws/etc, is to wrap them in benevolent language and ideas that no decent person would in their right mind object to... if what they proposed were really realistic or really possible. If they WERE possible, or the reality proposed WAS what they make it out to be, then no good person WOULD object. Since they aren't, that's why you have this violent outcry.
The health care bill is a disaster wrapped in the golden utopian dream of helping the poor. All of them. And who wouldn't want to help the poor?! Who is that downright EVIL, that they WOULDN'T want to help the poor?! Only problem is, the REALITY of this bill is not going to accomplish helping the poor. It's going to accomplish ruining anything of decent health care ANYONE in this country has. And that isn't going to help ANYONE! It's simply going to lead to more people joining the poor in their misery. And I know misery loves company, but... last time I checked, imposing one's own misery on others is not moral, or Catholic.
Lots of old-world peasants thought it wonderful and noble to rob and dethrone the aristocrats and to cut off their heads, simply because they were rich, and the peasants weren't. Or they had power, and the peasants didn't. Only problem is, it wasn't moral or right to do that, however much they dreamed that it would make every man a king. Now lots of new-world peasants want to do pretty much the same thing... "We can't get health care, so let everyone else die with us!" Well, problem is, that's not Catholic. That's satanic.
Remember. I am one of the poor who faces disaster if something really bad happens to me. But that doesn't change that as a Catholic, I cannot steal, or any other unjust thing, in order to save my own bacon. That is wrong, no matter what happens. And I would not wish the disaster that is to come, on my worst enemies to save myself, let alone on the poor who will suffer much more under the coming tax burden, and, ironically, to pretty much no avail.
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Dulcamara, help me out... is there really people who adamantly don't want health insurance ? Who are these people...
Why do they so stubbornly don't want insurance ? Do you think they are reasonable people ? This concept is so bizarre to me.
actually, yes-that is the great lie about the much bandied "40 million uninsured Americans"...I have met many, in private industry and Govt, that refuse teh health insurance, either because they wantthe extra money and feel thy are never going to get sick or do not like some facet of that.National health care would of course reward them...yes, I have heard people say "hey, I am healthy and never sick", as if sudden diseases, accidents,etc will never happen to them.....so, to in the 70's and 80's did my mother hear the same things, that was when IBM was huge on great health care and benefits....
so yes, many people think they are invincible and when they are not, it is free health care for them to the rescue-paid for by the tax payers and those that are responsible....
to what Andy has said, true, for yrs we HAVE HAD socialized medicine, in form of Medicare, Medicaid, etc.....all of which had provisions ofr contraception, abortion and sterilization......inclding Bush era increases to Planned Parenthood via title X and other programs.......including federal health palns that support the above and DC employees, same thing.....
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Dulcamara, help me out... is there really people who adamantly don't want health insurance ? Who are these people...
Why do they so stubbornly don't want insurance ? Do you think they are reasonable people ? This concept is so bizarre to me.
We don't want a government controlled health system. What's hard to understand about that?
You and the child murdering rats who want to fund abortion couldn't accept the Stupak amendment. Because they support child murder.
we have had Govt insurance for yrs in one form or the other, this new Bill is just a dreadful step towrd more involvement, mark my words, Medicare and Medicaid were just temp steps towrd national health care......your tax $$ for yrs have been providing abortion, sterilization, contraceptives to Americans and to foreigners as part of the unconstitutional aid packages.....Republicans have just been better at lying and playing the "Christian card"......
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There is no use in discussing this further, as some clearly have lost their wits.
If the bill does not fund abortion then the Stupak amendment would be acceptable.
Since the Stupak amendment was not accepted it is proof that the bill does fund abortion.
It's not losing my wits to call you stinking, lying, filthy, child murder supporting garbage.
It's just the truth. You and abortionist rats scurrying around feeding on the limbs of aborted fetuses funded by tax payers in the name of health insurance are a deadly plague.
as one that deals daily, all day with medical records, the fear mongering about giving and getting records and HIPPA laws is astounding......
and no, the bills is not aceptable, Stupak or Tupac..both increase socialism and the role of Govt in health, which is a private matter.......
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Thank you Dulcamara for taking the time to articulate your opinion.
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If it is ok for Granny and your parents when they reach 65 to get their VERY EXPENSIVE million dollar health care and the obese and slovenly gov employess that I know from the government or those that routinley go on disability at much younger ages and get very expensive health care, then it is ok for the younger people to get their much less expensive health care. I want all of you complaining to be honest and make sure your parents and grandparents if they are complaining of this don't take those million dollar gov plans that come out of my pocket. I want you younger trad caths to buck up and pay for your parents and grandparents med bills. Have the courage of your convictions. They and you should not be part of the satanic system and should trust in God.
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Everyone should trust in God, always. I am trying to say that it is impossible in the modern world to not be a part of the satanic system. We buy our clothes and food from evil companies. We pay taxes that murder millions in evil wars and foreign and domestic funded abortions. We buy our products from communist china slave mart. The list can go on for 20 pages. I think we all get my drift. Their has not been a gov bill passed in the last 20 years by either party that does not contain some small gross evil in it somehow. I am just trying to live in the reality of this evil world. I did not make it this way. I did not vote for Obama or McCain. I did not vote at all because I do not morally beleive in it. I am just trying to point out the hypocracy of many trads raging against this one bill when their were thousands of others that came before it that were also evil that they approved of. I am sick of it.
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If it is ok for Granny and your parents when they reach 65 to get their VERY EXPENSIVE million dollar health care and the obese and slovenly gov employess that I know from the government or those that routinley go on disability at much younger ages and get very expensive health care, then it is ok for the younger people to get their much less expensive health care. I want all of you complaining to be honest and make sure your parents and grandparents if they are complaining of this don't take those million dollar gov plans that come out of my pocket. I want you younger trad caths to buck up and pay for your parents and grandparents med bills. Have the courage of your convictions. They and you should not be part of the satanic system and should trust in God.
Your characterization is far from Christian-many people, either do to mental or physical isseus, are trying to deal with obesity and are not all "slovenly"....neither of these statements implies a "trust in God" approach at all....
socialism is not of God, btw....
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I am overweight, but am working to lose it all. It is very hard. I can tell you from experience that 98 percent of fat people are fat because of their diet and lack of exercise. I will now do the chrisitian thing and take out the 2 to 5 percent that are that way due to medical issues.
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Everyone should trust in God, always. I am trying to say that it is impossible in the modern world to not be a part of the satanic system. We buy our clothes and food from evil companies. We pay taxes that murder millions in evil wars and foreign and domestic funded abortions. We buy our products from communist china slave mart. The list can go on for 20 pages. I think we all get my drift. Their has not been a gov bill passed in the last 20 years by either party that does not contain some small gross evil in it somehow. I am just trying to live in the reality of this evil world. I did not make it this way. I did not vote for Obama or McCain. I did not vote at all because I do not morally beleive in it. I am just trying to point out the hypocracy of many trads raging against this one bill when their were thousands of others that came before it that were also evil that they approved of. I am sick of it.
I too am sick of the hypocrisy of the Dems and the Repubs....I voted Baldwin in 2008, Peroutka 2004, as you know in NC, the board of elections has a lot of chicanery and falsehoods, votes thrown away-still happy with my vote, it was for good people
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You are lying. You don't care about euthanasia, abortion or rationing.
I come from a country much poorer than the USA but with a child mortality rate less than half if not more than you do because our values our different. We see society and family while you just think of yourselves as individuals. Stop screaming about abortions when all you are really concerned about is being taxed more.
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Of course it is deeply sinful to vote for any party which is pro-abortion.
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Everyone should trust in God, always. I am trying to say that it is impossible in the modern world to not be a part of the satanic system. We buy our clothes and food from evil companies. We pay taxes that murder millions in evil wars and foreign and domestic funded abortions. We buy our products from communist china slave mart. The list can go on for 20 pages. I think we all get my drift. Their has not been a gov bill passed in the last 20 years by either party that does not contain some small gross evil in it somehow. I am just trying to live in the reality of this evil world. I did not make it this way. I did not vote for Obama or McCain. I did not vote at all because I do not morally beleive in it. I am just trying to point out the hypocracy of many trads raging against this one bill when their were thousands of others that came before it that were also evil that they approved of. I am sick of it.
I agree with you here. Rebuplicons have done NOTHING to end abortion and have not reversed one thing liberals started.
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You are lying. You don't care about euthanasia, abortion or rationing.
I come from a country much poorer than the USA but with a child mortality rate less than half if not more than you do because our values our different. We see society and family while you just think of yourselves as individuals. Stop screaming about abortions when all you are really concerned about is being taxed more.
your country was founded by Catholics, ours by masons, deists, prots,etc........theirin the difference.....
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I am overweight, but am working to lose it all. It is very hard. I can tell you from experience that 98 percent of fat people are fat because of their diet and lack of exercise. I will now do the chrisitian thing and take out the 2 to 5 percent that are that way due to medical issues.
me too, sometimes tend to gluttony.....looked at myself lsast night, look just like my dad and granddad when they were my age.......was not happy what I saw......
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In a way you are lucky in a sense, my dad is a runner and runs 6 miles a day and is in perfect shape. I am overweight and am heavier than him. HeH!
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your country was founded by Catholics, ours by masons, deists, prots,etc........theirin the difference.....
But Cuba which was founded by Marxists who are worse than prods and deists by a long shot has a much lower child mortality rate (if the child isnt murdered in the womb) than the USA. I dont see what is intrinsically evil about the state insuring the welfare of its citizens. The Roman Empire had welfare programmes and the Fathers never condemned them though some of them said that they didnt go far enough.
That said Obama's support for abortion is intrinsicaly evil.
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In a way you are lucky in a sense, my dad is a runner and runs 6 miles a day and is in perfect shape. I am overweight and am heavier than him. HeH!
Maybe try improving the quality of your food and therefore it would be easier to cut down on the quanity.
I just eat decent organic stuff which is more expensive but also better for you and tastier.
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your country was founded by Catholics, ours by masons, deists, prots,etc........theirin the difference.....
But Cuba which was founded by Marxists who are worse than prods and deists by a long shot has a much lower child mortality rate (if the child isnt murdered in the womb) than the USA. I dont see what is intrinsically evil about the state insuring the welfare of its citizens. The Roman Empire had welfare programmes and the Fathers never condemned them though some of them said that they didnt go far enough.
That said Obama's support for abortion is intrinsicaly evil.
actually, no, Marxism came in 1959, Cuba wa a republic many years before that......usually dictatorships, like Batista, but a full, official marxist nation not until 1959.....
what is evil is that the state has no role in welfare-remember, states kill people far more than any other group...left to the mercy of the state, how long before the old are snuffed out? the retarded? handicapped?? Those that do not have a 'right" attitude?
Due to Prussian centralization and almost worship of the state, that is why Hitler murdered millions, long before any Jєωs.....even now in Britain, you are stuck after a certain age, getting reduced benefits and little....Welfare is the domain of the Church and hr community
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That said Obama's support for abortion is intrinsicaly evil.
true, but lets say we get the welfare state you think is fine..your wife has more than the alloted number of children...the state can then yank your health, retirement,etc if you do not abort the unalloted children......or they can force you, for the good of all other citiziens, to abort.
I have BCBS and what ever things they cover, they are not yanking coverage because someone had a 3rd child, is a Trad Catholic....
the Govt that gives you everything is a Govt that can take everything away..Also, that Govt has complete control over you, after all, we do not control our politicians, do we?
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"he who is a pensioner of the state is a slave of the state.....The state had entered to solve [unemployment] by dole and work relief, by setting up so many bureaus that we were swamped with initials.... Labor was aiding in the creation of the Welfare State, the Servile State, instead of aiming for the ownership of the means of production and acceptance of the responsibility that it entailed."
-Peter Maurin
"The child does not belong to the state; it belongs to the parents. The child was given by God to the parents; he was not given by God to the state."
-Peter Maurin
"we are headed in this country towards a totalitarianism every bit as dangerous towards freedom as the other more forthright forms. We have our secret police, our thought control agencies, our overpowering bureaucracy.... The American State, like every other State, is governed by
those who have a compulsion to power, to centralization, to the preservation of their gains. And it is the liberals--The New Leader, New Republic, Commonweal variety--who have delivered the opiate necessary for the acceptance of this tyranny among "progressive" people. It is the fallacy of attempting social reform through the State, which builds up the power of the State to where it controls all avenues of life"
-Catholic Worker editor Robert Ludlow in 1951