Dulcamara, help me out... is there really people who adamantly don't want health insurance ?  Who are these people...

Why do they so stubbornly don't want insurance ?  Do you think they are reasonable people ?  This concept is so bizarre to me.

We don't want a government controlled health system.  What's hard to understand about that?

You and the child murdering rats who want to fund abortion couldn't accept the Stupak amendment.  Because they support child murder.

There is no use in discussing this further, as some clearly have lost their wits.

Well, I guess I did get to the source of your anger, which was my original question.    

I appreciate your passion, and encourage you to use this to dig deeper into the bill in finding in what way this bill will provide federal money to fund abortions.  

In my view, the Stupak amendment was not really necessary, and it's purpose was to reassure the constituents of those conservatives democrats up for reelection that were pressured by pro-life groups.  But current laws already prohibits the use of federal funds for abortions.  This Bill only maintains the status quo, and in addition, there is that decree signed by the President.

Now you may say I lie, but this can be fact-checked by anyone for accuracy.  My conscience is crystal clear.

Our system has been stealing and redistributing for along time. If this will help those poor people I know get better medical care, then it is fine by be. I am sorry that you may have to suffer inconvenience as a result. We don't live in a Catholic soiety WE LIVE IN A SATANIC one. I am just trying to see as many people helped as possible in an evil system.

One may never do evil that good may come of it. Read the bill, and then see if you would still like the poor to be helped by the working of that much evil.

Quote from: sedetrad

Our system has been stealing and redistributing for along time. If this will help those poor people I know get better medical care, then it is fine by be. I am sorry that you may have to suffer inconvenience as a result. We don't live in a Catholic soiety WE LIVE IN A SATANIC one. I am just trying to see as many people helped as possible in an evil system.

One may never do evil that good may come of it. Read the bill, and then see if you would still like the poor to be helped by the working of that much evil.

I can't see anyone getting helped from this bill.  But I am still amazed at how so many buy into the media hype about obama.  Its almost like a fairy tale: obama is seen as a crusader against a corrupt system when in reality he is part of that system.  No Catholic can support obama.

Dulcamara, help me out... is there really people who adamantly don't want health insurance ?  Who are these people...

Why do they so stubbornly don't want insurance ?  Do you think they are reasonable people ?  This concept is so bizarre to me.

Well, if the government were a magical machine that produces wealth and benevolently shares it, then yes, I'm sure all of us would say "sign me up!" But since the government has to squeeze the money, dollar by dollar out of already increasingly poor families, and in this case, for a goal we cannot possibly afford in reality even then... I dare say nobody wants to be taxed to death, and nobody really wants the little health care they CAN afford to be absolute crap, because of the complete ruin of the field of health care as a whole... which is what the garbage in this bill is about.

This is what's funny/strange to me... The democrats are just seething over what they see as the "evil republicans who don't want poor, helpless people to have free health care". Two little things I'd like to point out to you. #1... if I have an emergency, the emergency room can not refuse to treat me, even if I do not have the first red cent. #2... republicans (and myself) are not against everyone getting treated by doctors and being well... IF IT WERE POSSIBLE TO MAKE THIS HAPPEN!

The problem is, it is NOT possible to make this happen. And the government is trying to employ unjust, unconstitutional and unethical means of TRYING to do it, when it CAN NOT WORK. And when it goes against God's law of justice to do what they are trying to do. Justice does NOT say that every man shall enjoy the same circuмstances! Justice DOES say, the authority of the government to steal our money or rule our lives by law, is LIMITED. Authority comes from God, and is there pretty much only to back up God's laws, and keep order in society. NOT to take over everyone's lives in a vain attempt to override the circuмstances God gave to every individual man, and build an impossible heaven on earth.

If the money and the number of doctors (who magically did not have to make a living) could suddenly appear... great! What rotten bast@rd WOULDN'T want that?! Unfortunately, what happens is....

 1) taxes will be raised until many of us are pushed to the financial breaking point (or over it, if we're there already).

 2) there will not be enough doctors to treat all of the new people who will be rushing to get this "free" medical care, so EVERYONE will have to wait. This means if you need health care in a non-emergency state (that is, if you're not bleeding out of every pore), but you really do need care like... NOW... that's just too bad. Because 800 other people will be in line before you. (or your poor friends). So if your organs fail or you die in the meantime, well... tough luck, pal. Have a nice wait. And that will go for all of the poor people out there, who are now thinking (idiotically) that they're going to be first in line.

3) Because it is paid for "by the government" (BS, but whatever...), the government will stick it's nose into every aspect of our personal lives, with LEGAL AUTHORITY, in the name of policing the health care it must then pay for. If they can hook it up to some health risk, they'll be able to find the excuse to regulate just about anything by law. And like a dirty minded person can turn anything into something dirty, the same will happen with the connections related to your health. ALL of your life will be connected (supposedly) to it, somehow, and therefore all of your life will be fair game for government regulation in the name of public health interests and keeping costs down. (Sorry. That's no saint in the white house.)

4) Since the government is paying for it, everything must be cheaper... TOO cheap. Like with what's happening with the Walgreens stores who are now refusing new medicare patients for subscriptions, because the government is refusing to pay them enough to cover even the costs of the medicines themselves. Imagine this happening to the entire health care industry. And the guy who gets ripped off is just supposed to suck it up and go bankrupt, I guess. Only problem is, the people getting ripped off in the middle does NOT have bottomless pockets, no matter what initials they have before their names. What happens when all of the proverbial Wallgreenses go bankrupt, because the government mandates they must allow the people to rip them off into bankruptcy? Now apply that to doctors, to providers of medical devices, etc.. How long do you think there will be doctors who are willing to LOOSE money to do what they do for a living, or else go to jail or face fines for NOT agreeing to do so?

5) Looking at the problem of doctors, just imagine all of the new ones (qualified or not ) that will have to be passed on through the educational system half-baked, so that it even LOOKS like there's enough of them to cover all the people who will be overloading the system.

And so forth. These are the kinds of problems that people are objecting to. Not the idea of poor people getting treated. But the FACT that the proposed solution is, in reality, a disaster, covered up by the smoke and mirrors of everybody's bleeding heart and rosy intentions. Problem is, the REALITY is what we'll all be living with, not the fantasy world where money grows on trees (and not in the pockets of the poor families we're supposedly championing here)... the reality where the government is NOT run by benevolent people, but by people who would rather have a police state than a free state. YOUR intentions may be noble as they come. But the intentions of the people who think all money should go to and be dished out by the government, along with every other aspect or "freedom" in your life, are not so noble.

Liberalism, if it is anything, is the mindset that all people are incompetent, rebellious morons, who are better off slaves of a nanny/police state, and servants of a super-rich elite who shears the sheep under them. Common sense says, we cannot agree with these people when they try to accomplish just that, no matter WHAT they claim their intentions are. Their intentions may have wonderful appearances, and quite often sound very well and good. But their actions are all bent toward that same mindset. That you and I should work day in and day out, send all our money in to them, and then let them run every aspect of our lives, or else.

If they set up a group to eliminate Catholics by killing them, and called it "the committee for protection of religious rights," doubtless a good many well meaning idiots who happen to be Catholics would vote for it, while condemning those who are opposed, yelling "YOU JUST HATE CATHOLICS!" Well, hope you've made your peace, because after the well-intentioned vote comes the hellish reality.

It's not the appearances or the fantasy vision of some good thing being realized as if by magic that is the problem. The problem is the reality under the appearances or utopian vision. The devil is ALWAYS in the details. And this is no exception.

The best way to get fools to swallow lies is to simply wrap them up in some token truth. The best way to get fools to accept bad laws/etc, is to wrap them in benevolent language and ideas that no decent person would in their right mind object to... if what they proposed were really realistic or really possible. If they WERE possible, or the reality proposed WAS what they make it out to be, then no good person WOULD object. Since they aren't, that's why you have this violent outcry.

The health care bill is a disaster wrapped in the golden utopian dream of helping the poor. All of them. And who wouldn't want to help the poor?! Who is that downright EVIL, that they WOULDN'T want to help the poor?! Only problem is, the REALITY of this bill is not going to accomplish helping the poor. It's going to accomplish ruining anything of decent health care ANYONE in this country has. And that isn't going to help ANYONE! It's simply going to lead to more people joining the poor in their misery. And I know misery loves company, but... last time I checked, imposing one's own misery on others is not moral, or Catholic.

Lots of old-world peasants thought it wonderful and noble to rob and dethrone the aristocrats and to cut off their heads, simply because they were rich, and the peasants weren't. Or they had power, and the peasants didn't. Only problem is, it wasn't moral or right to do that, however much they dreamed that it would make every man a king. Now lots of new-world peasants want to do pretty much the same thing... "We can't get health care, so let everyone else die with us!" Well, problem is, that's not Catholic. That's satanic.

Remember. I am one of the poor who faces disaster if something really bad happens to me. But that doesn't change that as a Catholic, I cannot steal, or any other unjust thing, in order to save my own bacon. That is wrong, no matter what happens. And  I would not wish the disaster that is to come, on my worst enemies to save myself, let alone on the poor who will suffer much more under the coming tax burden, and, ironically, to pretty much no avail.

Quote from: Vandaler

Dulcamara, help me out... is there really people who adamantly don't want health insurance ?  Who are these people...

Why do they so stubbornly don't want insurance ?  Do you think they are reasonable people ?  This concept is so bizarre to me.

We don't want a government controlled health system.  What's hard to understand about that?

You and the child murdering rats who want to fund abortion couldn't accept the Stupak amendment.  Because they support child murder.

we have had Govt insurance for yrs in one form or the other, this new Bill is just a dreadful step towrd more involvement, mark my words, Medicare and Medicaid were just temp steps towrd national health care......your tax $$ for yrs have been providing abortion, sterilization, contraceptives to Americans and to foreigners as part of the unconstitutional aid packages.....Republicans have just been better at lying and playing the "Christian card"......