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Author Topic: Catholic Principles on Voting for an Unworhy Candidate  (Read 2499 times)

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Offline Jaynek

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Re: Catholic Principles on Voting for an Unworhy Candidate
« Reply #15 on: November 08, 2024, 09:43:46 AM »
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  • And the worst part isn't just voting, it's the ongoing legitimization of "lesser evil" as if it were some valid principle of Catholic moral theology, and we see various Trad Catholics extending the same bogus "reasoning" to other moral questions outside of voting.

    We need only one example from Cranny's nonsense to discredit the entire thing.  He declares that because voting is a good, it's permitted to vote for an evil candidate.  That has to be the dumbest thing I've ever read from someone posting as a theologian.  That's like saying because our procreative faculties are good, it's permitted to fornicate or commit adultery.  That's like saying because free will is good, then it's permitted to use free will to choose evil.  No, voting is not intrinsically good, but is indifferent, and is either good or bad depending upon whether you make a good or bad choice.
    I actually agree with your concern about "lesser evil".  It is not an independent principle of moral theology, as some people seem to be using it.  It is one of several conditions that needs to met in order to apply the principle of double effect.  It is necessary but not sufficient.  All the conditions must be met.  It does seem that some people are not understanding it correctly or using the term in confusing ways.  

    As for  Fr. Cranny's supposed "nonsense", here are his exact words: "Since the act of voting is good, it is lawful to vote for an unworthy candidate provided there is a proportionate cause for the evil done and the good lost."  This is obviously an allusion to the principle of double effect, for which one of the conditions is that the act is, in itself, either good or neutral. He is saying that this condition is met in the case of voting and the others must be as well. 
    His comment is not at all like the analogies you compare it to. I, like you, am more inclined to classify voting as neutral rather than good, but either is adequate in this case.  It makes no difference to the overall argument.

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Catholic Principles on Voting for an Unworhy Candidate
    « Reply #16 on: November 08, 2024, 09:49:50 AM »
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  • Nevertheless, explain why you believe supporting Israel necessarily causes Trump to be an unworthy candidate.  Fill in the blank by explaining your reasoning.  Or better yet, explain how his support of Israel caused him to harm America during his first term?
    I need to think about how to answer this.  It is not a question I ever expected to see on this forum.


    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Catholic Principles on Voting for an Unworhy Candidate
    « Reply #17 on: November 08, 2024, 10:19:38 AM »
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  • I actually agree with your concern about "lesser evil".  It is not an independent principle of moral theology, as some people seem to be using it.  It is one of several conditions that needs to met in order to apply the principle of double effect.  It is necessary but not sufficient.  All the conditions must be met.  It does seem that some people are not understanding it correctly or using the term in confusing ways. 

    As for  Fr. Cranny's supposed "nonsense", here are his exact words: "Since the act of voting is good, it is lawful to vote for an unworthy candidate provided there is a proportionate cause for the evil done and the good lost."  This is obviously an allusion to the principle of double effect, for which one of the conditions is that the act is, in itself, either good or neutral. He is saying that this condition is met in the case of voting and the others must be as well.
    His comment is not at all like the analogies you compare it to. I, like you, am more inclined to classify voting as neutral rather than good, but either is adequate in this case.  It makes no difference to the overall argument.
    Like I said in another thread, I thought your post about "tolerating" the lesser evil was excellent.  I wish you had made that distinction pre-election.  What? You didn't want to join in the fun? 😅

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Catholic Principles on Voting for an Unworhy Candidate
    « Reply #18 on: November 08, 2024, 10:21:55 AM »
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  • Quote
    Trump is a Zionist with a long history of supporting Israel. 
    :jester:  Every major political figure in the last 40 years has been a zionist.  Even Biden is one.  This whole Middle East 'war' is a farce.  It's a political war-game, designed to create a temporary flare-up "problem" which will be "solved" by the elites in due time.  Zionism leads to antichrist, let's not forget the end game.

    Offline Everlast22

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    Re: Catholic Principles on Voting for an Unworhy Candidate
    « Reply #19 on: November 08, 2024, 10:27:00 AM »
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  • :jester:  Every major political figure in the last 40 years has been a zionist.  Even Biden is one.  This whole Middle East 'war' is a farce.  It's a political war-game, designed to create a temporary flare-up "problem" which will be "solved" by the elites in due time.  Zionism leads to antichrist, let's not forget the end game.
    Right, which is why I'm confused on why people think Trump is "different".


    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Catholic Principles on Voting for an Unworhy Candidate
    « Reply #20 on: November 08, 2024, 10:28:11 AM »
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  • Discredited by whom?  And what seems more likely, that Fr. Cranny and all the highly respected authorites he cited (whose manuals all enjoyed the requisit nihil obstat and imprimaturs) were modernists,

    There actually is some justification for suspecting Fr. Cranny of modernism.  His obituary described him as a promoter of ecuмenism.  But even a modernist can correctly quote orthodox authors.  Ladislaus has not provided any evidence that the quotes in the essay do not mean what they say.

    Offline rosarytrad

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    Re: Catholic Principles on Voting for an Unworhy Candidate
    « Reply #21 on: November 08, 2024, 10:30:21 AM »
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  • Right, which is why I'm confused on why people think Trump is "different".
    My thoughts exactly. He is surrounded by Jews.
    The mercies of the Lord I will sing for ever. - Ps. 88:2a
    St. Anthony of Padua, pray for us.
    St. John of God, pray for us.
    Our Lady of Guadalupe, mystical rose, make intercession for Holy Church.

    Offline Viva Cristo Rey

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    Re: Catholic Principles on Voting for an Unworhy Candidate
    « Reply #22 on: November 08, 2024, 10:34:36 AM »
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  • Taken from http://www.catholicapologetics.info/morality/general/voting.htm


    I have seen people reject using Fr. Cranny's essay as a source due to suspicions that he was influenced by modernism.  However this section is a summary of recognized Catholic moral theologians, not his personal opinions.  I think that we can safely use it.  Note how it agrees with Fr. Scott's writing on the subject that has apppeared in recent posts.


    I certainly agree with those who consider Trump to have been an unworthy candidate.  But they do not have a theological basis for claiming those who voted for Trump did something wrong.  Catholics are permitted to vote for unworthy opponents in order to exclude an even less worthy one.  hαɾɾιs was not merely a promoter of abortion, she made killing babies the main plank of her election campaign.  Every time she referred to abortion as a "reproductive right" it was a lie and a sin.  There is no right to murder.  I cannot even imagine anyone being more evil than hαɾɾιs.  Those who consider Trump less evil have good grounds to do so.

    On the other hand, there were good Catholic reasons not to vote for Trump and there is no theological basis for claiming that Catholics were oblliged to vote for him.  I think it is highly likely that every Catholic on Cathinfo voted (or refrained from doing so) in a way that is consistent with Catholic teaching.  That is what I am assuming.  It was a situation in which Catholics could make a prudential judgment among different options.  There is no good reason for people to continue insulting and chastising each other over the election.

    Amen. 
    May God bless you and keep you


    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Catholic Principles on Voting for an Unworhy Candidate
    « Reply #23 on: November 08, 2024, 10:35:51 AM »
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  • Right, which is why I'm confused on why people think Trump is "different".
    As far as Zionism goes, I don't see a significant difference.  The difference is abortion.  Trump turned the decision to the states and some of them will not support abortion.  hαɾɾιs would have made abortion on demand the policy for the whole country.  Fewer babies die under Trump. Far too many die either way, but some will be saved under Trump.  It is not exactly a victory, just a bit less horrific.

    Offline Everlast22

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    Re: Catholic Principles on Voting for an Unworhy Candidate
    « Reply #24 on: November 08, 2024, 10:40:58 AM »
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  • As far as Zionism goes, I don't see a significant difference.  The difference is abortion.  Trump turned the decision to the states and some of them will not support abortion.  hαɾɾιs would have made abortion on demand the policy for the whole country.  Fewer babies die under Trump. Far too many die either way, but some will be saved under Trump.  It is not exactly a victory, just a bit less horrific.
    And why would he do that, do you think? Because he hates abortion? 

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Catholic Principles on Voting for an Unworhy Candidate
    « Reply #25 on: November 08, 2024, 10:45:15 AM »
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  • And why would he do that, do you think? Because he hates abortion?
    For all I know he is doing it because he thinks it will get him some votes.  I don't really care what his motive is.  Fewer babies will die.


    Offline Everlast22

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    Re: Catholic Principles on Voting for an Unworhy Candidate
    « Reply #26 on: November 08, 2024, 10:51:28 AM »
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  • For all I know he is doing it because he thinks it will get him some votes.  I don't really care what his motive is.  Fewer babies will die.
    It should be illegal, period. That's why I think not participating in political voting  is a valid option as well for a Catholic.

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Catholic Principles on Voting for an Unworhy Candidate
    « Reply #27 on: November 08, 2024, 11:11:34 AM »
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  • It should be illegal, period. That's why I think not participating in political voting  is a valid option as well for a Catholic.
    I agree with you.  Abortion should be illegal and your line of reason here is legitimate.  As far as I understand the authorities on moral theology, not participating was a valid option under these circuмstance.  Voting for Trum was also a valid option, if done for the right reasons. 

    We should save our condemnation for Catholics who voted for hαɾɾιs.  Not that I expect anyone here to have actually done that.  

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Catholic Principles on Voting for an Unworhy Candidate
    « Reply #28 on: November 08, 2024, 12:25:22 PM »
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  • explain why you believe supporting Israel necessarily causes Trump to be an unworthy candidate.  Fill in the blank by explaining your reasoning.  Or better yet, explain how his support of Israel caused him to harm America during his first term?

    Israel is a country with evil policies and actions.  Tolerating this evil would only be justified if it achieved a proportional good. No such good exists, making it immoral to support Israel.  This support includes billions of dollars of financial aid, most of it going toward military expenses (in general and specifically under Trump).  It harms America to lose this money rather than spending it to benefit Americans. 

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Catholic Principles on Voting for an Unworhy Candidate
    « Reply #29 on: November 09, 2024, 06:45:32 AM »
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  • Like I said in another thread, I thought your post about "tolerating" the lesser evil was excellent.  I wish you had made that distinction pre-election.  What? You didn't want to join in the fun? 😅
    I try to avoid forums these days.  I've realized they are not good for me.  But I was so surprised by the election results I wanted to discuss it, so I came here for a trad perspective.  I'll be leaving soon, though I do check in from time to time.