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Traditional Catholic Faith => Politics and World Leaders => Topic started by: JezusDeKoning on May 14, 2019, 10:49:38 PM

Title: Alabama Effectively Outlaws Abortion
Post by: JezusDeKoning on May 14, 2019, 10:49:38 PM
https://www.npr.org/2019/05/14/723312937/alabama-lawmakers-passes-abortion-ban (https://www.npr.org/2019/05/14/723312937/alabama-lawmakers-passes-abortion-ban)

This will start a huge legal battle, which could end up in the hands of the SCOTUS. 
Title: Re: Alabama Effectively Outlaws Abortion
Post by: josefamenendez on May 15, 2019, 05:28:02 AM
It was designed to get it before the Supreme Court.  Pray the Governor signs the bill.
Title: Re: Alabama Effectively Outlaws Abortion
Post by: songbird on May 15, 2019, 04:21:32 PM
My first thoughts, Hooray!  Next thoughts, must be the Baptists, God knows the Catholics are not so pro-life, sad to say.  And may the New Order of the State of Alabama remember that the New Order, via Catholic Charities feeds abortion.  Never give$$.
Title: Re: Alabama Effectively Outlaws Abortion
Post by: josefamenendez on May 15, 2019, 04:55:58 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DGBl3CmP7nw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DGBl3CmP7nw)

God bless Alabama! I'm ready to move there.. ( Is there a Resistance priest in Birmingham?)
Title: Re: Alabama Effectively Outlaws Abortion
Post by: Last Tradhican on May 15, 2019, 04:56:32 PM
It is good to see an occasional step in the right direction. Let's pray that it is the beginning of a turnaround and not just a blip on the downward spiral. 
Title: Re: Alabama Effectively Outlaws Abortion
Post by: josefamenendez on May 15, 2019, 09:03:44 PM
Governor Kay Ivey signed the bill! God bless her!
Title: Re: Alabama Effectively Outlaws Abortion
Post by: Ladislaus on May 15, 2019, 09:34:19 PM
While I'm happy to see this, they invariably contradict themselves:

Quote
Under the new law, doctors in the state face felony jail time up to 99 years if convicted. But a woman would not be held criminally liable for having an abortion.

If it is in fact murder, as you claim, why are the women who have abortions exempt from criminal liability?  That's nonsense.  I'm glad they finally dropped the rape and incest crap though.  Either the baby is a human life or it is not.  Be consistent.
Title: Re: Alabama Effectively Outlaws Abortion
Post by: Stanley N on May 16, 2019, 08:29:14 AM
USAToday is running an article "25 men voted to ban abortion in Alabama. Do they reflect the rest of America?" It has some of the typical PR, with misleading references to vague polls and surveys.

But they're also trying to demonize this law by saying the votes came from 25 white men. That anyone would think that would fly says a lot about how far anti-male propaganda has developed.

These Alabama representatives were elected by the people of Alabama. They represent Alabama. If the people of Alabama don't like what they did, they are capable of electing different people. And the governor of Alabama, who could have vetoed, is a woman.

If men voting on this was wrong, then what does USAToday say about the 9 men of SCOTUS who decided Roe v. Wade? If men voting in Alabama is wrong, then was it not also for SCOTUS?
Title: Re: Alabama Effectively Outlaws Abortion
Post by: Maria Regina on May 16, 2019, 09:10:27 AM
"Under the new law, doctors in the state face felony jail time up to 99 years if convicted. But a woman would not be held criminally liable for having an abortion."

Quote
While I'm happy to see this, they invariably contradict themselves:

If it is in fact murder, as you claim, why are the women who have abortions exempt from criminal liability?  That's nonsense.  I'm glad they finally dropped the rape and incest crap though.  Either the baby is a human life or it is not.  Be consistent.

All those who force a woman to have an abortion -- her school nurse, her doctor, her friends, her boyfriend, her lover, her husband, her mother, her mother-in-law, etc. -- should also be held criminally liable. Studies have shown that many girls and women are forced into an abortion. Those who are forced into an abortion should not be held criminally liable. Instead, those who conspired to kill her and/or her unborn baby should be prosecuted.

Unscrupulous men or boys who groom women or girls to have sex, who rape them, and then who force them into an abortion should also be held criminally liable.

Some women are even punched in the stomach to kill the baby or are secretly given an abortifacent, drug, poison, or herbal treatment that will cause an abortion. This is premeditated murder.

Bottom line: Anyone who engages in any criminal activity or conspiracy to kill pregnant ladies, unborn babies, or newborns should be exposed, prosecuted and convicted.
Title: Re: Alabama Effectively Outlaws Abortion
Post by: Stanley N on May 16, 2019, 09:13:36 AM
Surveys can be heavily dependent on the phrasing and knowledge assumed in the question. For example:

"Should schools in America teach Arabic Numerals as part of their curriculum?"
Results: Yes - 29%, No - 56%  No opinion - 15%

(Snopes says this happened.)
Title: Re: Alabama Effectively Outlaws Abortion
Post by: Maria Regina on May 16, 2019, 09:31:18 AM
Abortion will not be truly outlawed until all abortifacent birth control drugs and the morning after pill are also outlawed.

And yes, women and girls who engage in repeated abortions should be held criminally liable.
Title: Re: Alabama Effectively Outlaws Abortion
Post by: B USC90 on May 16, 2019, 09:38:38 AM
https://www.npr.org/2019/05/14/723312937/alabama-lawmakers-passes-abortion-ban (http://sanfrancisco.proxylistpro.com/page.php?u=sYBlsTgPeSqv92cg6JpT7cIeShFvxLm8gCX6pljpt0kIFl45Iuhw4rbNN0WeUOntu4065cnUTw8YaeHqLhd4uxL5xvJoS%2B7QK4PCLipgMQ%3D%3D&b=5)

Under the new law, doctors in the state face felony jail time up to 99 years if convicted. But a woman would not be held criminally liable for having an abortion.

That pesky female privilege, again.
Title: Re: Alabama Effectively Outlaws Abortion
Post by: Maria Regina on May 16, 2019, 09:45:25 AM
That pesky female privilege, again.
The male legislators who wrote this law obviously did not want to lose the female vote, but notice also that male rapists, sex predators, pedophiles, and pimps are not held accountable in this law. Only doctors will be punished.

These men want to have their pie and eat it too.
Title: Re: Alabama Effectively Outlaws Abortion
Post by: B USC90 on May 16, 2019, 09:51:24 AM
Quote
The male legislators who wrote this law obviously did not want to lose the female vote, but notice also that male sex predators, pedophiles, and pimps are not held accountable in this law. Only doctors will be punished.

Those criminals should be tried for the crimes of rape, pedophilia & prostitution, but they have nothing to do with having the unborn baby murdered. The doctor and pychopathic mother who willingly kills her unborn baby should be held accountable for the murder.
Title: Re: Alabama Effectively Outlaws Abortion
Post by: Ladislaus on May 16, 2019, 10:22:44 AM
All those who force a woman to have an abortion -- her school nurse, her doctor, her friends, her boyfriend, her lover, her husband, her mother, her mother-in-law, etc. -- should also be held criminally liable. Studies have shown that many girls and women are forced into an abortion. Those who are forced into an abortion should not be held criminally liable. Instead, those who conspired to kill her and/or her unborn baby should be prosecuted. 

Rarely is a woman "forced" to have an abortion; that's usually after-the-fact rationalization from women who subsequently developed guilty consciences about it.

Pressure?  Yes, I'm sure that happens all the time.  But forced?  I'm sure that happens from time to time, but it's much more rare.

In any case, you would treat this like any murder case.  If these other people (e.g. men) materially participated, then they should be tried as accomplices.  If they tried to persuade her to do it, they could be accessories or conspirators in murder.  If a woman were forced to such a degree that it was no longer a free act, then of course she could be found not guilty.  But, despite the outward fear and pressure, sin is still sin if there's any element of free will left.  So, for instance, those who apostasize under threat of death or torture, still commit a sin; it's merely that the gravity of the sin in God's eyes may be extenuated due to these external pressures.
Title: Re: Alabama Effectively Outlaws Abortion
Post by: Ladislaus on May 16, 2019, 10:25:21 AM
Abortion will not be truly outlawed until all abortifacent birth control drugs and the morning after pill are also outlawed.

And yes, women and girls who engage in repeated abortions should be held criminally liable.

So they it's OK to murder once, but serial murderers should be criminally liable?  Sorry, but even a single act of murder should be considered a criminal act by the state.
Title: Re: Alabama Effectively Outlaws Abortion
Post by: Ladislaus on May 16, 2019, 10:26:43 AM
It's this pro-feminine bias that keeps abortion legal.  Polls indicate that most American disapprove of abortion ... except that they do not want to infringe upon these precious snowflakes' "right to choose".

How are women who have multiple abortions any different than any serial killer who has had the opprobrium of society and the law piled on him  ... and yet they strut about in society holding their heads up high.  And, yet, even female serial killers are treated differently than males.  Look at Andrea Yates.  Ah, the poor woman who just cracked under the pressures of motherhood.  If a man had done the same thing, he would have been written off as a perverse demon.

And this bias in favor of women criminals is the direct result of the complete effeminization of men.
Title: Re: Alabama Effectively Outlaws Abortion
Post by: B USC90 on May 16, 2019, 12:02:14 PM
Quote from: Ladislaus (http://sanfrancisco.proxylistpro.com/page.php?u=UkV8uS3GC7GyjDmOqBjg8EFi9MWHRWvLrsU9SiYrdqDu4BKh5KRF8T1Y1NZoaiswInO8jw%3D%3D&b=5#msg654291) on Thu May 16 2019 10:26:43 GMT-0500 (Central Daylight Time)
It's this pro-feminine bias that keeps abortion legal.  Polls indicate that most American disapprove of abortion ... except that they do not want to infringe upon these precious snowflakes' "right to choose".

How are women who have multiple abortions any different than any serial killer who has had the opprobrium of society and the law piled on him  ... and yet they strut about in society holding their heads up high.  And, yet, even female serial killers are treated differently than males.  Look at Andrea Yates.  Ah, the poor woman who just cracked under the pressures of motherhood.  If a man had done the same thing, he would have been written off as a perverse demon.

And this bias in favor of women criminals is the direct result of the complete effeminization of men.

Nailed it.

NNNNNNNNNNNNNAILED IT !!!!
Title: Re: Alabama Effectively Outlaws Abortion
Post by: B USC90 on May 16, 2019, 12:16:09 PM
The ruling in Alabama exemplifies why only men should be in government and make laws, not women.
Title: Re: Alabama Effectively Outlaws Abortion
Post by: Matto on May 16, 2019, 12:24:34 PM
And this bias in favor of women criminals is the direct result of the complete effeminization of men.
I wonder if this is true, that people having more sympathy for women than men is a result of male effeminization. It could be mere empathy and sympathy for the weaker sex who is loved without understanding that the consequences of this for society would be bad. One could even blame Jesus Christ himself for exonerating the woman caught in adultery and not stoning her to death. But I do think most people are biased in favor of women today in America.
Title: Re: Alabama Effectively Outlaws Abortion
Post by: B USC90 on May 16, 2019, 12:31:25 PM
Quote
One could even blame Jesus Christ himself for exonerating the woman caught in adultery and not stoning her to death.

The oldest profession in history is far less an offense to God than killing babies.

Remember, Jesus said it would be better for a person to have a millstone around his neck and be cast into the sea, if he scandalizes a child. Even worse will happen to a person who murders a baby or unborn baby, especially when the baby is robbed of getting baptized.
Title: Re: Alabama Effectively Outlaws Abortion
Post by: Ladislaus on May 16, 2019, 12:58:34 PM
I wonder if this is true, that people having more sympathy for women than men is a result of male effeminization. It could be mere empathy and sympathy for the weaker sex who is loved without understanding that the consequences of this for society would be bad. One could even blame Jesus Christ himself for exonerating the woman caught in adultery and not stoning her to death. But I do think most people are biased in favor of women today in America.

Nearly all evils are the perversion of a good.  When sympathy for the weaker sex (emotion) overcomes a man's intellect (his principles and sense of right and wrong), that's where the laudable trait of sympathy and respect for women becomes the evil of feminism.  So mens' higher faculties are subordinated to the female emotion, ergo, an effeminization of men.  I, as a man, naturally have more sympathy for a female criminal than a male, but that should translate merely into putting them in jail with a slightly heavier heart.
Title: Re: Alabama Effectively Outlaws Abortion
Post by: Pax Vobis on May 16, 2019, 01:12:22 PM
Quote
I wonder if this is true, that people having more sympathy for women than men is a result of male effeminization. It could be mere empathy and sympathy for the weaker sex who is loved without understanding that the consequences of this for society would be bad.
This is my guess, as i've not studied it, but I think history would show that women who commit heinous crimes usually would not be sent to prison but to insane asylums or similar.  In the past, it was so unusual, since it's so anti-feminine, that even the women who were more logical and violent were able to hide behind typical feminine emotions and "play dumb" and act like they were crazy.  When in reality, they were stone-cold, psychopathic killers.  But this is a very, very unique woman.
.
In our modern day, once women were given the chance to vote, the call for equality has been growing and getting louder.  Certainly, this plays a part in all of this.  Another aspect is that politicians don't want to alienate 50% of their voters, so they go as far as they can, but not all the way.  Another aspect is that men, even effiminate men, still properly view women as potential emotional timebombs, who deserve to some extent sympathy for their low rational threshhold.  How many men have witnessed a women spiral out of control emotionally, yet not commit violence?  There's a fine line sometimes between temporary insanity and then acting upon such insanity.  With the lack of grace and spiritual fortitude today, such lines are being crossed more easily than ever.  Most women have been told they can take care of themselves.  Is it any wonder they make such bad decisions on their own?
.
I agree that women should be charged with murder but many get an abortion in a state of stress, and the higher problem is the system - the doctors, nurses and clinics who satanically talk these women into it, treat the murder as if it is "healthy" and "natural", and the woman gets to do all of this, mostly for free, in a "caring" environment, with people who surround them with attention.  Many of these women have no love in their life, because they don't have God, religion or a proper family.  So when they get pregnant, they freak out.  I'm not saying it's right, just giving the human mindset.
.
With all of these laws, you have to have baby steps.  These women are addicted to the system, addicted to bad relationships, addicted to poor life choices.  Much like stopping drug crimes, you go after the drug pushers and traffickers first.  If you destroy the system/supply, you stop the illegal activity.  All of these laws are imaginary anways, until the Supreme Court overrules Roe v Wade.  This was the design of the law - to get the Supreme Court to return this decision to the states.
Title: Re: Alabama Effectively Outlaws Abortion
Post by: josefamenendez on May 16, 2019, 03:42:45 PM
Wow- this law eliminates rape and incest exemptions and will incarcerate abortionists for felonies. I am thankful for this law! This is the best state legislation ever passed and will go before SCOTUS. You are right about criminalization for the women having the abortions, but that would never fly in the current culture, even with " pro-life" activists. I'm truly surprised that this even got through. Amazing!
I am grateful to God for the Alabama State Legislature and the Governor for this. This is the babies' greatest hope since 1973. Time to stop the killing.
Deo Gratias!
Title: Re: Alabama Effectively Outlaws Abortion
Post by: Maria Regina on May 16, 2019, 06:55:20 PM
So they it's OK to murder once, but serial murderers should be criminally liable?  Sorry, but even a single act of murder should be considered a criminal act by the state.
It is never okay to commit the sin of abortion. The woman who is complicit in the act of abortion, but who is NOT being forced into an abortion, is guilty of murder.

However, there are many women who use abortion as a form of birth control, or who use an abortifacent birth control drug. Those who use abortifacent birth control (pill, implant, or IUD) are guilty of repeated abortions, they are just as guilty as those who repeatedly visit PP to have their babies murdered.

The morning after pill needs to outlawed. Contraception is just as wicked as abortion.
Title: Re: Alabama Effectively Outlaws Abortion
Post by: Maria Regina on May 16, 2019, 06:56:20 PM
Wow- this law eliminates rape and incest exemptions and will incarcerate abortionists for felonies. I am thankful for this law! This is the best state legislation ever passed and will go before SCOTUS. You are right about criminalization for the women having the abortions, but that would never fly in the current culture, even with " pro-life" activists. I'm truly surprised that this even got through. Amazing!
I am grateful to God for the Alabama State Legislature and the Governor for this. This is the babies' greatest hope since 1973. Time to stop the killing.
Deo Gratias!
DITTO!
Title: Re: Alabama Effectively Outlaws Abortion
Post by: Maria Regina on May 16, 2019, 07:03:52 PM
Rarely is a woman "forced" to have an abortion; that's usually after-the-fact rationalization from women who subsequently developed guilty consciences about it.

Pressure?  Yes, I'm sure that happens all the time.  But forced?  I'm sure that happens from time to time, but it's much more rare.

In any case, you would treat this like any murder case.  If these other people (e.g. men) materially participated, then they should be tried as accomplices.  If they tried to persuade her to do it, they could be accessories or conspirators in murder.  If a woman were forced to such a degree that it was no longer a free act, then of course she could be found not guilty.  But, despite the outward fear and pressure, sin is still sin if there's any element of free will left.  So, for instance, those who apostasize under threat of death or torture, still commit a sin; it's merely that the gravity of the sin in God's eyes may be extenuated due to these external pressures.
I agree with you to a point.

However, there have been studies done showing that women and girls are often forced or convinced to have an abortion by their mothers, dads, schoolmates, boyfriends, lovers, doctors, nurses, teachers, etc.

All those who convince/force a scared new mother into having an abortion are accomplices. If these accomplices do not confess their sins, they will suffer hell fire.

When I was in college, a scared young Catholic college coed came to me because she knew I was strong in the faith. She told me that all her friends were trying to force her to have an abortion, but she knew that she would be strengthened by me into choosing life.

Unfortunately, when she was nine months pregnant, a doctor prescribed a known abortifacent antibiotic for an infection, when other less dangerous antibiotics were available. Unknowingly, she took the medicine. She lost the baby within five days. Doctors wanted her to go to an abortuary, but she refused as she wanted nature to take its course. In addition, she had heard that several doctors had falsely said that babies were dead in utero, when they were still alive.

Throughout her pregnancy, she came to me for advice as I was the only one she could trust. Upon my recommendation, she gave the child a Christian burial after baptizing him conditionally immediately following his stillborn birth. My husband and I were there for his funeral and burial. In the small coffin, the child looked normal in every way. He looked like he had just fallen asleep.
Title: Re: Alabama Effectively Outlaws Abortion
Post by: josefamenendez on May 16, 2019, 08:27:42 PM
Home  (https://www.haaretz.com/)  >   U.S. News (https://www.haaretz.com/us-news)
From Haaretz:
"It also presented a threat to my religious freedom as a Jew."
Looks like the Christ haters are building this up to be a "religious rights" violation, since the Jew loves abortion
Opinion 
Alabama's Anti-abortion Law: This Is What Christian Rule Looks Like in America
The evangelical crusade making its way from Alabama to the Supreme Court will force American Jews to submit to their distinctly Christian anti-abortion dogma
reddit (https://www.reddit.com/submit?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.haaretz.com%2Fus-news%2F.premium-alabama-s-anti-abortion-law-this-is-what-christian-rule-looks-like-in-america-1.7248187/1.7248187&title=Alabama%27s%20anti-abortion%20law%3A%20This%20is%20what%20Christian%20rule%20looks%20like%20in%20America)

[img width=100%]https://images.haarets.co.il/image/upload/w_2192,h_1276,x_0,y_62,c_crop,g_north_west/w_609,h_343,q_auto,c_fill,f_auto/fl_any_format.preserve_transparency.progressive:none/v1557994992/1.7248236.3644653318.jpg[/img]Abortion rights activists protest outside of the U.S. Supreme Court, during the March for Life in Washington. Jan. 18, 2019Jose Luis Magana,AP[/size][/color]
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When Alabama’s governor this week signed into law the United States’ most restrictive ban on abortion, making it illegal in nearly all circumstances, it set up a challenge to the U.S. Supreme Court’s 1973 ruling in Roe v. Wade, which made abortion up to 24 weeks a Constitutional right.
>> Subscribe for just $1 now (https://bit.ly/2Vu7lbH)
It also presented a threat to my religious freedom as a Jew.
The Alabama law permits termination of a pregnancy only (https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/14/us/abortion-law-alabama.html) when it poses a "serious" health risk to the life of the mother, has a "lethal anomaly" or is ectopic. The last two conditions don’t even refer to viable pregnancies.
No exceptions to the abortion ban in cases of rape or incest were included in the new law, which would charge a doctor who performs an abortion with a felony and the possibility of up to 99 years in prison.
More to the point, the new law refers to an embryo or fetus as "the unborn child." That language reflects a distinctly Christian view of when life starts.
Governor Kay Ivey made no secret of that when she said that the new law is "powerful testament (http://https//www.cnn.com/2019/05/15/politics/alabama-governor-signs-bill/index.html?no-st=1557966283) to Alabamians' deeply held belief that every life is precious and that every life is a sacred gift from God."
Alabama State Representative Rich Wingo, a Republican and architect of the new law, told The New York Times, "Our position is just simply that the unborn child is a person (https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/08/us/abortion-alabama-ban.html)." Alabama Senator Clyde Chambliss, who shepherded the bill through the chamber, declared: "I believe that if we terminate the life of an unborn child, we are putting ourselves in God’s place (https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/alabama-senate-passes-nations-most-restrictive-abortion-law-which-makes-no-exceptions-for-victims-of-rape-and-incest/2019/05/14/e3022376-7665-11e9-b3f5-5673edf2d127_story.html)." That view, like those embedded in new "heartbeat laws" in Georgia and several other states, reflects the institutionalization of Christian hegemony in America. They infringe on my religious freedom as a Jew.
The very first words of the U.S. Constitution’s First Amendment are: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." The U.S. Supreme Court in 1947 unanimously ruled in Everson v. Board of Education that the Establishment Clause forbids practices that "aid one religion (https://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution-conan/amendment-1/an-overview)" or "prefer one religion over another," and also those that "aid all religions."
In other words, the government is not permitted to pass laws favoring one religion over another, or over no religion.
[img width= height=]https://images.haarets.co.il/image/upload/w_1792,h_1343,x_149,y_35,c_crop,g_north_west/w_625,h_361,q_auto,c_fill,f_auto/fl_any_format.preserve_transparency.progressive:none/v1557995315/1.7248252.1814676042.jpg[/img]Anti-abortion activists march with a placards and chant in front of the US Supreme Court in Washington, D.C. January 22, 2015AFP
This is key, because according to classical Jewish text and most rabbinic interpreters, a developing embryo or fetus is not "an unborn child" or "person," but has the legal status of an appendage of the pregnant woman. It is part of her body, not a separate person, until the moment that a majority of a viable baby capable of independent life has been born.Contemporary rabbis hold, of course, a range of views. Politically and religiously conservative Orthodox rabbis say that abortion is permitted only when pregnancy poses a threat to the mother’s life.
Rabbi David Novak heads the Jewish Pro-Life Foundation (https://jewishprolifefoundation.org/), which in its video calls embryos and fetuses "Jewish children (https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=77&v=r5YfuBSBpWg)" and states that "life begins at conception," though it does not offer an explanation for its use of this language. The "position of the tradition is that abortion is prohibited unless the fetus is a threat to the life of the mother, which is extremely, extremely rare these days with prenatal care," Novak told me. "The only basis of dispute is how widely or narrowly does one interpret a threat to the mother’s life."
Others have a more nuanced perspective of Judaism’s position. "Abortion is neither murder nor manslaughter," but "in a moral category that is completely different than the way the Catholic Church and some evangelicals view" it, says Rabbi Jack Moline, president of the Interfaith Alliance (https://interfaithalliance.org/about-us/meet-our-president/). 
The Jewish Conservative movement’s Rabbinical Assembly on Wednesday night agreed, expressing its "emphatic" opposition to the Alabama decision: "Jewish tradition cherishes the sanctity of life, including the potential of life which a pregnant woman carries within her, but does not believe that personhood and human rights begin with conception, but rather  (https://www.rabbinicalassembly.org/story/statement-reproductive-freedom)with birth (https://www.sefaria.org/Exodus.21?lang=bi&aliyot=0), as indicated by Exodus 21:22-23.
[img width= height=]https://images.haarets.co.il/image/upload/w_1572,h_1178,x_64,y_238,c_crop,g_north_west/w_625,h_361,q_auto,c_fill,f_auto/fl_any_format.preserve_transparency.progressive:none/v1557994805/1.7248224.3438770100.jpg[/img]Pro-choice supporters protest the Alabama state Senate vote on the strictest anti-abortion bill in the United States. Montgomery, Alabama, U.S. May 14, 2019\ CHRISTOPHER ALUKA BERRY/ REUTE
"Denying a woman and her family full access to the complete spectrum of reproductive healthcare, including contraception, abortion-inducing devices, and abortions, among others, on religious grounds, deprives women of their Constitutional right to religious freedom."

The Supreme Court’s decision in Roe was based not on a determination of when life begins but rather on a woman’s right to privacy and autonomy (https://www.oyez.org/cases/1971/70-18) through the first trimester. That jives with Judaism’s classical understanding of when life begins. The first 40 days, or close to 6 weeks, are a period in which the Talmud says a pregnancy is "like water."
The Mishna states that even a woman who is nine months pregnant (https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/the-fetus-in-jewish-law/)may be executed if that is the punishment meted out to her for committing a crime. Her execution may not be delayed to spare the pregnancy unless she has already begun to give birth, since the fetus is not a person.
Debating when life begins is an unwinnable fight. Each person’s view depends on their religious and political positions.
Instead the legal battle over the new laws like Alabama’s can be based on the Constitutional right to the free exercise of religion. Can government privilege one religion’s view of when life begins over another’s?
As a Jewish woman and mother of daughters, I know this fight is of vital importance to every woman who discovers she is pregnant and does not want to be. But it is also of fundamental importance to the civil rights and religious freedom of every American Jew.
Just as no law can obligate us to share the religious beliefs of evangelical Christians, neither should a law demand that we share their view of when life begins.
 (https://www.haaretz.com/misc/writers/WRITER-1.4969274)
(https://images.haarets.co.il/image/fetch/w_466,h_466,x_73,y_57,c_crop,g_north_west/w_84,h_84,q_auto,c_fill,f_auto/fl_any_format.preserve_transparency.progressive:none/https://www.haaretz.com/polopoly_fs/1.5584711.1514908186!/image/1018316866.jpg)
 (https://www.haaretz.com/misc/writers/WRITER-1.4969274)Debra Nussbaum Cohen
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Title: Re: Alabama Effectively Outlaws Abortion
Post by: JezusDeKoning on May 16, 2019, 10:29:47 PM
Judaism itself is not pro-life (http://www.phil.cmu.edu/cavalier/Forum/abortion/background/judaism1.html#IV). There are individual "scholars" (it's cognitive dissonance in religious doctrine, worse than Protestantism) who are, but most of them believe what the Talmud believes: that before the 40th day, the fetus is "just water" and not really human. 

The more liberal Jews have no morals, period.
Title: Re: Alabama Effectively Outlaws Abortion
Post by: B USC90 on May 17, 2019, 12:46:51 PM
Quote
However, there have been studies done showing that women and girls are often forced or convinced to have an abortion by their mothers, dads, schoolmates, boyfriends, lovers, doctors, nurses, teachers, etc.

Quit making excuses for those women. Nobody put them in handcuffs and drove them to an abortion center, and put a gun to their head, and forced them to allow a doctor to butcher out the unborn baby.


They went to the baby killers on their own power and by their own free will. 

Less than 1% might have their food or drink spiked with an abortion pill against their knowledge, which would excuse them from the sin of murder because they didn't freely choose to kill their unborn baby.  
Title: Re: Alabama Effectively Outlaws Abortion
Post by: Ladislaus on May 17, 2019, 01:39:12 PM
However, there have been studies done showing that women and girls are often forced or convinced to have an abortion by their mothers, dads, schoolmates, boyfriends, lovers, doctors, nurses, teachers, etc.

Convinced/pressured?  Certainly.

Forced?  Very rarely.

You put forced and convinced into the same category?

So if someone were to tell me:  "Hey, you're fired from your job if you don't kill this [innocent] person."  I go ahead and do it.  Does this mean I should not be held criminally liable for murder since I was pressured into doing it?  Of course not.  Now, this pressure might lead to an extenuation of the punishment, but in principle I must be convicted as guilty.  It's one thing to lighten the punishment but another (an affront to principle) to say that there's no criminal liability whatsoever.  That's a caving on the PRINCIPLE.  But extenuation is already built into the legal system, so for instance, if I was under pressure, I may not be convicted of first degree murder, but of second degree, or even manslaughter.  But in any case SOME CRIME has been committed, and it's garbage that the women are not "criminally liable" at all.  Not unless they almost literally have a gun to their heads.
Title: Re: Alabama Effectively Outlaws Abortion
Post by: Ladislaus on May 17, 2019, 01:42:31 PM
Quit making excuses for those women. Nobody put them in handcuffs and drove them to an abortion center, and put a gun to their head, and forced them to allow a doctor to butcher out the unborn baby.


They went to the baby killers on their own power and by their own free will.

Less than 1% might have their food or drink spiked with an abortion pill against their knowledge, which would excuse them from the sin of murder because they didn't freely choose to kill their unborn baby.  

THIS ^

She is feeding the very same feminist propaganda that the Pro-Abortion people use, the heart-tugging sympathy for the poor female victim.  Oh, both the child and the mother are victims of abortion (even the Pro Lifters resort to this garbage).

These women want "equality" under the law, and yet for them this means superiority and preferential treatment.  So, are you equal to men, or are you an inferior creature that suddenly has no free will apart from the directions of men in your life ... when it suits you?
Title: Re: Alabama Effectively Outlaws Abortion
Post by: Maria Regina on May 17, 2019, 04:53:00 PM
She is feeding the very same feminist propaganda that the Pro-Abortion people use, the heart-tugging sympathy for the poor female victim.  Oh, both the child and the mother are victims of abortion (even the Pro Lifters resort to this garbage).

These women want "equality" under the law, and yet for them this means superiority and preferential treatment.  So, are you equal to men, or are you an inferior creature that suddenly has no free will apart from the directions of men in your life ... when it suits you?
I am not pro-abortion, nor have I ever been pro-choice. I have been pro-life all my life, and have been a pro-life volunteer.

I have helped women avoid the abortuary -- those killing fields run by Planned Parenthood. Have you?

As a result of helping these women, I have witnessed their godless friends, parents, and others who have been forcing them into having an abortion. It is gut wrenching. Often, with very limited funds or no funds at all, these abandoned pregnant women and girls must find another place to live where people will support their decision to keep their baby.

Yes, it takes two to tangle. In this godless society where few worship and pray to God, virtue is rarely practiced, and our schools, libraries, and bookstores have become training grounds for immorality because of the salacious books that promote abortion and the sex industry and sex trafficking of both boys and girls.

We must speak up to protect these children who are often groomed from an early age to become sex slaves.
Title: Re: Alabama Effectively Outlaws Abortion
Post by: JezusDeKoning on May 17, 2019, 07:10:27 PM
It doesn’t go far enough. 99 years in prison is too lenient, these should be capital offenses.
Title: Re: Alabama Effectively Outlaws Abortion
Post by: Ladislaus on May 17, 2019, 10:10:03 PM
I am not pro-abortion, nor have I ever been pro-choice.

Please actually read and understand what I posted.  You've completely misunderstood and misrepresented two of my posts now on this thread.
Title: Re: Alabama Effectively Outlaws Abortion
Post by: Maria Regina on May 17, 2019, 11:19:22 PM
Please actually read and understand what I posted.  You've completely misunderstood and misrepresented two of my posts now on this thread.
:-[

Of course, now we are totally off topic. I think you have misunderstood and labeled me very unfairly.

I thank God that Alabama has effectively outlawed abortion, but in this godless society, this is only a first step, and it is not enough.

We need to revamp our educational system, which promotes abortion as the books used in our schools are largely published by Pearson, which is part of the Rothschild empire, and which promotes immorality of all kinds: abortion, euthanasia, same sex marriages, etc. Even in their testing system (GRE, SAT, etc.), Pearson has questions on those tests, which subtly promote immorality and ungodliness of all kinds.

We need to live our faith and not be ashamed to proclaim that Jesus is Lord, and that we are living in the End Times and have since Christ ascended into Heaven on the 40th day.

Both men and women, boys and girls need to promote modesty in dress remembering that we are Temples of the Holy Ghost.

We need to promote custody of the senses, controlling not only our eyes, but also all our senses:
1. Our sense of smell by not wearing perfumes and colognes;
2. Our senses of hearing and seeing by watching what we read, type, and hear on the Internet, TV, and radio;
3. Our sense of taste by fasting from certain foods, and by limiting our food intake to control our lustful thoughts because gluttony leads to lustful thoughts;  and
4. Our senses of touch and sight by not wearing soft sensual transparent or revealing clothing.

Final thought:

On another forum, there was a guy who was always promoting the idea that since women were the cause of lust in men, that women and girls should wear a burka or dress like the Mennonites. When the forum moderator did research, he found that this guy had similar names on other forums, and that even though married and a father to many children, this farmer guy from Texas was a sexual predator who was soliciting and grooming modest women and girls on the forum by email and private messaging. He was planning on having a Mennonite-type harem on his farm. Therefore, even the Mennonites accused him of heresy. He devoutly read the Old Testament and had a King Solomon fixation, thinking that he could have many wives. I kid you not.

If we were truly living in a Catholic society, perhaps it would be easier, but living in this multicultural society alongside pagans, Jews, Muslims, and heretics makes it difficult to raise children in the faith. We must therefore be ever vigilant.