Author Topic: Where have all the children gone?  (Read 3047 times)

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Offline Ekim

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Where have all the children gone?
« on: February 08, 2017, 07:38:29 PM »
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  • I've been attending Traditional Catholic Chapels for over 20 years.  The first for about 8 years and the second for about 13.  Oddly, after all of these years, the pews have not expanded at all.  It seems that the children of highly respected families grow up and move away.  Even among themselves Traditional Catholic chapels never seem to really grow.  

    Does anyone have any thoughts on this?  After 30 years of large catholic families...some with over 10 kids, our chapel seems to be getting smaller.

    Offline saintbosco13

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    Where have all the children gone?
    « Reply #1 on: February 08, 2017, 07:44:44 PM »
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  • Quote from: Ekim
    I've been attending Traditional Catholic Chapels for over 20 years.  The first for about 8 years and the second for about 13.  Oddly, after all of these years, the pews have not expanded at all.  It seems that the children of highly respected families grow up and move away.  Even among themselves Traditional Catholic chapels never seem to really grow.  

    Does anyone have any thoughts on this?  After 30 years of large catholic families...some with over 10 kids, our chapel seems to be getting smaller.


    I noticed the same thing it was just talking about it myself. It seems to me that the younger generation that could be marrying are not because they can't find a good spouse with solid faith, and they are not about to risk marrying someone without the faith only to wind up having a divorce forced on them. It's sad.

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    Offline Ekim

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    Where have all the children gone?
    « Reply #2 on: February 08, 2017, 07:50:33 PM »
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  • At the two chapels I know of the kids grow up and leave.  Maybe 15% stick around but the others seem to leave forever.  

    Offline MyrnaM

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    Where have all the children gone?
    « Reply #3 on: February 08, 2017, 08:23:46 PM »
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  • At Mount St. Michael,  some of the kids grow up and move out of the area, therefore it is hard to tell if they are keeping the faith or not.  A few of them leave the faith or it becomes apparent they are just hanging in, but many of them marry each other, or convert outsiders, have children of their own and become active while the congregation continues to grow.  We usually do have at least one, or two enter the convent at each graduation.    

    What surprises me the most is when, and this happens every once in awhile when an established married couple suddenly pick up and goes to Vatican II, can't say they went "back" to VII because they were reared with Tradition they leave broken hearted parents  and now grandparents behind.  

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    Offline Matthew

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    Where have all the children gone?
    « Reply #4 on: February 08, 2017, 09:03:20 PM »
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  • I don't know what it is either.

    In my case, I did end up finding a very good spouse (she was worth the wait). But I didn't find her at a trad chapel!

    Nevertheless, I'm not thereby going to let all the trad ladies at my trad chapels off the hook. I started off by "trying" to date the handful of young single ladies at my chapel, before I gave up and started dating pagans. In retrospect, I shouldn't have bothered. But I felt quite justified, telling my mother and other Catholics that "I tried to date traditional Catholics, but I can't be single my whole life!" It was hard. I know that many young men are in the same boat today.

    For some reason, it almost seems like the young men and women at the (always small) trad chapels consider themselves brothers/sisters, or "too close of a friend to see you that way". I guess they want the modern world's version of love, excitement and infatuation over a solid Traditional Catholic foundation.

    I don't think young couples realize just how important it is to be united on matters of faith and morality. Everything else falls into place.

    The independent Trad chapel I grew up at only had ONE couple marry each other. The chapel was open from 1975 - 2009 or so. At its peak, it had 120 parishioners, including a lot of families and young people.

    I know where most of those young people ended up. Many married non-Catholics (with or without a conversion involved), some met their spouse via the SSPX or Indult, and a few left the Faith. And a number of them never married.

    I will say this: I knew one young man who was interested in a young lady from the independent chapel, but years later I found out that during his teen years (when I knew him) he was sowing his wild oats. Now I know why he didn't date any Catholics from our chapel.
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    Offline Arsenius

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    Where have all the children gone?
    « Reply #5 on: February 08, 2017, 11:02:08 PM »
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  • Let me speak as a member of the "young generation". I've been around quite a bit of traditional chapels/parishes either as a regular attendee or attending once or twice on invitation or because I happened to be passing through town.

    Resistance chapels are so small and unstable that I don't think a parish community could ever really arise from one in the current state of things. Think about for a second - Resistance chapels are so understaffed, you don't even have First Friday, First Saturday devotions, holy days of obligations are at random times and probably always low masses, Sunday mass is even irregular week to week, month to month. Here in America, you're probably putting yourself into a recusant situation if you are Resistance only. How on earth is a tightly knit community supposed to form in such an atmosphere, especially considering that a lot (most?) attendees also live great distances apart from each other and only congregate semi-regularly to attend mass?

    Then there is the issue of the actual attendees. On my last trip to a Resistance chapel, I saw maybe 2 unmarried ladies, and 2 or 3 bachelors. Are we really down to the point where we literally have no choice of who to marry so we just have to marry the person sitting the next pew over for the sake of marrying "within the Faith"?

    I found a virtuous, young lady at the Novus Ordo who I helped bring to tradition. She didn't know of the Latin Mass before meeting me and now attends SSPX regularly - she hasn't been back to the Novus Ordo for quite a while now.

    I really think the older generation is partly at fault for creating such a suffocating and anti-social environment at many of these chapels. We are all infected with the spirit of the modern age simply by being born into it. It's no use pretending that our chapels are insulated from the spirit of the age. We must, obviously, resist it. We cannot, however, pretend that we are somehow protected from it within the confines of our chapels. This "us versus them" mentality has certainly not helped...

    Offline Brennus

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    Where have all the children gone?
    « Reply #6 on: February 09, 2017, 11:04:02 AM »
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  • There seems to be a good bit of crypto-feminism in Traditionalist circles as some of you on this forum are well aware. Maybe that is part of it, but I suspect it is a small part.

    I think traditionalist communities can become stifling. We tend to attract nuts on one extreme, and people who want to be be extolled for their contributions on the other. That latter drives ME nuts more than the former.

    I remember being young and that is the sort of thing I would have been ready to flee.

    There is a lot of apocalypticism among traditionalists. We can be as bad as Protty fundamentalists. A grown up might forget what sort of lunacy he was spouting three years prior, but three years is a long time in a child's life and that failure of some apparition to turn out correct, or some catastrophe to befall, or the SSPX thing to finally be worked out, or whatever. Well those failures at prediction will make a big impression on a child. It might make "the folks" look like a bunch of fools when a young man or woman is looking at the wide world awaiting them.  

    There is economics, as mentioned. Can a young man find a way to earn a living and keep a wife and large family?  

    I think we must work harder to secure a future for our children in this world, just in case this world doesn't go away. I have an old book, a century old, called Marriage and the Catholic ideal. One of the duties of the father is to secure gainful employment for his sons and good marriages for his daughters. Jone has that as well.

    Last but not lest -- indeed, most important -- we should just whine about all the trouble the young ones have. We must also confront the fact that the sin is theirs as well. No matter what evil times we live in and no matter how goofy our communities may be at times, it does not excuse the young from discerning their vocation and acting accordingly. In short, a lot of these are sinning. So, what do we do about that>? Pray, fast, and give alms.  

    Offline TKGS

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    Where have all the children gone?
    « Reply #7 on: February 09, 2017, 12:10:19 PM »
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  • I often hear about how far a Catholic family has to travel to get to a chapel.  At the two chapels I regularly attend, both have families (some with babies and children) who weekly travel between one and three hours to attend Mass.  

    We, ourselves, travel an hour and fifteen minutes to one chapel and just under two hours to the other chapel.  This is not unusual.  Most families don't live within a short distance of a traditional chapel.

    Every once in a while, I also hear about new chapels being established and that the only reason there are not more founding of chapels is because the number of traditional priests available to serve them is still limited.

    Even if a particular chapel isn't "growing", I wonder if it's not because people who attend a chapel aren't founding new chapels closer to them.  Furthermore, children who grow up at a chapel often need to move in this day and age in order to make a living.  While there are some problems in general, I don't think they are quite as bad as some on this topic make it sound.


    Offline Arvinger

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    Where have all the children gone?
    « Reply #8 on: February 09, 2017, 01:56:56 PM »
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  • I guess most of you are Americans, so living in Britain I will share my perspective from here. The situation is even worse than you describe - as our priest once said, there is no future for Tradition in Britain. In my chapel some 70-80% of parishioners are elderly people, many of whom remember the Latin Mass from before Vatican II. Out of the remaining 20-30% most are between 30-50 and married. I'm 26 and there are literally only two or three other people of my age in the chapel. I have visited several other chapels accross Britain and the situation there is very similar. It is slightly better at Indult Mass centres which I have visited, but not by a significant margin. Overall, chances of meeting a Trad Catholic lady of roughly my age who is single are extremely slim. In other words, Traditional Catholic population here is on the verge of extinction.

    Offline Ekim

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    Where have all the children gone?
    « Reply #9 on: February 10, 2017, 04:14:47 AM »
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  • I think why Tradition is dying. Many kids grew up in families in the 70's and 80's hearing that Gods wrath was on its way...first the Fatima 1960, then three days of darkness, then "The Warning", Firey comets to hit the earth, imposter Pope Paul VI, Sister Lucy and Joey L. dies without without fulfillment of the prophecy...the list goes on and on...

    I remember being in high school in the 1980's thinking I'd never graduate.  Many of my family members eventually got tired of unfulfilled prophecy and riddle filled apparitions that they just started to become lax.  Their children eventually took no stock in Tradition because they simply saw it as a lifeboat from the doom and gloom prophecy.  With prophecy unfulfilled/ no longer worthy of belief/ they see no need for the lifeboat.

    Online Nadir

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    Where have all the children gone?
    « Reply #10 on: February 10, 2017, 04:50:58 AM »
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  • Fatima 1960 was not associated with doom and gloom. It was rather something we looked forward to - a secret to be revealed. Overall I don't buy you theory because there is just as much unfullfilled prophecy and riddle-filled apparitions outside of tradition, in conservative New orderites.


    Offline Ekim

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    « Reply #11 on: February 10, 2017, 05:57:13 AM »
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  • Third secret of Fatima was believed to be apocalyptic...hence doom and gloom.  Catholics must do this or else...

    Offline Arvinger

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    Where have all the children gone?
    « Reply #12 on: February 10, 2017, 06:32:56 AM »
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  • Quote from: Ekim
    Third secret of Fatima was believed to be apocalyptic...hence doom and gloom.  Catholics must do this or else...

    Well, there is little doubt that the Third Secret says about great apostasy in the Church and divine chastisement killing large portion of mankind - the evidence is overwhelming. This is why we have to take it very seriously and strive towards Consecration of Russia.

    However, you might be on to something - many Trads are obsessed with private revelations to a degree that it becomes central point of their faith. If your Catholic faith rests primarily upon private revelations rather than solid catechesis and Catholic dogma, there is definitely a problem there, and if the children get the same mindset they don't have a solid foundation for staying Traditional Catholics.

    Offline Ekim

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    Where have all the children gone?
    « Reply #13 on: February 10, 2017, 06:33:01 AM »
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  • ....Exactly, the world is full of unfulfilled prophecy...so why believe in anything...just be a "good guy" and "follow your heart" and God will take care of me.

    Offline Arvinger

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    Where have all the children gone?
    « Reply #14 on: February 10, 2017, 06:36:41 AM »
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  • Quote from: Ekim
    ....Exactly, the world is full of unfulfilled prophecy...so why believe in anything...just be a "good guy" and "follow your heart" and God will take care of me.

    We must not jump into extremes. Fatima is a very serious matter and if the Consecration of Russia will not be done, a divine chastisement prophecied in Fatima and Akita will probably fall upon us. On the other hand, these private revelations cannot be fundation for faith - children need solid catechesis and Catholic dogma to stay Traditional Catholics.

     

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