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Offline Lover of Truth

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Understanding Cantate Domino as it was Written
« on: April 10, 2014, 02:24:19 PM »
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  •     Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, "Cantate Domino," 1441, ex cathedra: "The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the Church before the end of their lives; that the unity of this ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only for those who abide in it do the Church's sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia produce eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church." [1,2,5]

        Look closely at this paragraph immediately above and one sees two basic parts, the first that teaches that "all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the Church before the end of their lives" (in other words, dealing with those who are outside the Church, and the second, "that the unity of this ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only for those who abide in it do the Church's sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia produce eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church," which deals with those who are inside the Church. Notice that it is clearly referring to the second part (those inside the Church) when it uses the word "persevered" to specify what they must do. To sacrifice all and give any manner of alms etc. but then fail to persevere within the Church is to be in that category in which "nobody can be saved." Only the first part of this paragraph pertains to those who are outside the Church (and hence required to seek baptism), and the only condition it places upon them is to be "joined to the Church before the end of their lives." Since this does not in any manner address what it takes to be "joined to the Church" it in no way excludes whatever means God may elect to use in some specific case where water baptism was not obtainable but nevertheless sought.
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Understanding Cantate Domino as it was Written
    « Reply #1 on: April 10, 2014, 02:30:24 PM »
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  • LoT, you demonstrated on another thread that you don't have any training in theology or logic and that you even struggle with basic English and we're to take your word for this?  As with everything, you see what you want to see and believe what you want to believe.

    "Persevere" just means to die in that state; you know, the gift of perseverence.  You may have heard of this in second-grade catechism.  You cannot be saved unless you die in the state of being in the Church.

    Breathtaking.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Understanding Cantate Domino as it was Written
    « Reply #2 on: April 10, 2014, 02:32:51 PM »
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  • You've clearly adopted the strategy of continuing to throw excrement at the wall with the hopes that some of it will stick.  You've made up your mind about what you want to believe and are on a never-ending quest to prove that it's true; this is referred to as begging the question.

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Understanding Cantate Domino as it was Written
    « Reply #3 on: April 11, 2014, 12:30:01 PM »
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  • Did you grasp the below?  It is called reading and understanding what it says with the proper distinctions.  Not reading into it what you prefer to believe.  EENS and BOD/B (properly understodd) do not contradict each other.  If they did the Church would be unreliable and false.  We would have to look for another or give up religion entirely:

    Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, "Cantate Domino," 1441, ex cathedra: "The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the Church before the end of their lives; that the unity of this ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only for those who abide in it do the Church's sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia produce eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church." [1,2,5]

        Look closely at this paragraph immediately above and one sees two basic parts, the first that teaches that "all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the Church before the end of their lives" (in other words, dealing with those who are outside the Church, and the second, "that the unity of this ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only for those who abide in it do the Church's sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia produce eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church," which deals with those who are inside the Church. Notice that it is clearly referring to the second part (those inside the Church) when it uses the word "persevered" to specify what they must do. To sacrifice all and give any manner of alms etc. but then fail to persevere within the Church is to be in that category in which "nobody can be saved." Only the first part of this paragraph pertains to those who are outside the Church (and hence required to seek baptism), and the only condition it places upon them is to be "joined to the Church before the end of their lives." Since this does not in any manner address what it takes to be "joined to the Church" it in no way excludes whatever means God may elect to use in some specific case where water baptism was not obtainable but nevertheless sought.
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Exurge

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    Understanding Cantate Domino as it was Written
    « Reply #4 on: April 11, 2014, 12:39:55 PM »
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  • I have to admit i hadn't thought about this before.

    If Cantate Domino had said "...cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they become members of the Church before the end of their lives", then it would be a closed case for water or damnation.

    But it said "joined to".


    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Understanding Cantate Domino as it was Written
    « Reply #5 on: April 11, 2014, 12:41:44 PM »
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  • Quote from: Exurge
    I have to admit i hadn't thought about this before.

    If Cantate Domino had said "...cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they become members of the Church before the end of their lives", then it would be a closed case for water or damnation.

    But it said "joined to".


    Correct.  "attached" could also be used.  "Within" is legitimate as well.  Remember there is no salvation OUTSIDE the Church.
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Understanding Cantate Domino as it was Written
    « Reply #6 on: April 11, 2014, 12:42:46 PM »
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  • Quote from: Ladislaus
    You've clearly adopted the strategy of continuing to throw excrement at the wall with the hopes that some of it will stick.  You've made up your mind about what you want to believe and are on a never-ending quest to prove that it's true; this is referred to as begging the question.


    That is a good analogy of yourself and a first step to recovery.  Now how are you going to rectify it?
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Understanding Cantate Domino as it was Written
    « Reply #7 on: April 11, 2014, 12:45:18 PM »
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    It is well to remember that the teaching of the Cantate Domino is not that men must actually become members of the Church in order to attain to eternal salvation.  The document insists that pagans, Jews, heretics, and schismatics will not be saved unless, before the end of their lives they are joined (aggregate) to the one true Church.  It is Catholic doctrine now, and it was Catholic doctrine when the Cantate Domino was written, that a man who is in the Church in the sense that he sincerely, even though only implicitly, desires to live within it, is in a position to be saved if he should die before he is able to attain membership in the Church.  Fenton
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church


    Online Stubborn

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    Understanding Cantate Domino as it was Written
    « Reply #8 on: April 11, 2014, 12:46:53 PM »
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  • Quote from: Exurge
    I have to admit i hadn't thought about this before.

    If Cantate Domino had said "...cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they become members of the Church before the end of their lives", then it would be a closed case for water or damnation.

    But it said "joined to".


    LoT's version says that. It should say........

    "The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes, and
    teaches, that none of those who are not within the Catholic
    Church, not only pagans, but Jews, heretics and schismatics, can
    ever be partakers of eternal life, but are to go into the eternal fire
    'prepared for the devil, and his angels' (Mt. 25: 41)., unless before
    the close of their lives they shall have entered into that Church;
    also that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is such that the
    Church's sacraments avail only those abiding in that Church, and
    that fasts, almsdeeds, and other works of piety which play their
    part in the Christian combat are in her alone productive of
    eternal rewards; moreover, that no one, no matter what alms he
    may have given, not even if he were to shed his blood for Christ's
    sake, can be saved unless he abide in the bosom and unity of the
    Catholic Church."
    O what shall I, so guilty plead, and who for me will intercede? when even Saints shall comfort need!

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Understanding Cantate Domino as it was Written
    « Reply #9 on: April 11, 2014, 12:47:54 PM »
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  • Of interest:
    Quote

    Furthermore, no one is excluded from the everlasting possession of the Beatific Vision except for reasons of sin.  In the case of an infant who has died without receiving the sacrament of baptism, that sin is not personal, but is original sin, the aversion from God which is consequent upon the offense committed by Adam himself.  Obviously, according to the teaching of the Catholic Church, an infant who dies in that state will not be punished by the all-just and all-merciful God for some sin which he did not personally commit.  But, for such an infant, the Beatific Vision is a good to which the infant is not entitled and which he will not receive.
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Online Stubborn

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    Understanding Cantate Domino as it was Written
    « Reply #10 on: April 11, 2014, 12:49:33 PM »
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  • Quote from: Lover of Truth
    Quote
    It is well to remember that the teaching of the Cantate Domino is not that men must actually become members of the Church in order to attain to eternal salvation.  The document insists that pagans, Jews, heretics, and schismatics will not be saved unless, before the end of their lives they are joined (aggregate) to the one true Church.  It is Catholic doctrine now, and it was Catholic doctrine when the Cantate Domino was written, that a man who is in the Church in the sense that he sincerely, even though only implicitly, desires to live within it, is in a position to be saved if he should die before he is able to attain membership in the Church.  Fenton


    Once again, heretic Fenton starts out affirming the dogma, and ends up denying it.

    Typical modernist double speak. Fenton, one of the fathers of the Novus Ordo - I bet even Pope Francis thinks highly of him.  
    O what shall I, so guilty plead, and who for me will intercede? when even Saints shall comfort need!


    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Understanding Cantate Domino as it was Written
    « Reply #11 on: April 11, 2014, 12:50:18 PM »
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  • Quote
    In reality the only motive force for the forgiveness of man’s sins is to be found in the redemption by Jesus Christ.  And the only possible way for a man to have his own sins remitted is to come into contact with Our Lord and with His salvific power in the one and only social unit which has been divinely constituted as His Mystical body. This means being within His Church as a member or at least by a sincere, even though perhaps only an implicit, desire or intention.  The man who is not thus in contact with Our Lord cannot have the remission of sin.  And he cannot have the effects that follow upon that remission of sin.  Fenton
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Understanding Cantate Domino as it was Written
    « Reply #12 on: April 11, 2014, 12:52:14 PM »
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  • Quote
    All of the supernatural aids granted by God to any man tend to lead him to the eternal possession of the Beatific Vision.  They likewise direct him toward those realities which, either by their very nature or by God’s own institution, are requisite for the attainment of the Beatific Vision.  One of those realities is the visible Catholic Church, the religious society over which the Bishop of Rome presides as the Vicar of Christ on earth.  The graces which God grants to any man outside the Church will inevitably guide him in the direction of the Church.  Fenton
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Understanding Cantate Domino as it was Written
    « Reply #13 on: April 11, 2014, 12:53:31 PM »
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    If a man continues faithful to the graces given him by God he will certainly attain to eternal salvation.  And he will just as certainly obtain that salvation “within” the true Church of Jesus Christ.  God’s grace will lead a man in the direction of justification, according to the pattern set forth in the teaching of the Council of Trent.  It will direct him to believe God’s revealed message with a certain assent based on the authority of God Himself revealing.  It will lead him in the direction of salutary fear and of hope and of initial love of God and of penance.  Ultimately it will lead him to a desire of baptism, even though, in some cases, that desire may be only implicit in character.  And baptism is of itself the gateway to the Church, the Mystical body of Christ, within which the life of grace and salvation are to be found.  In the case of a man who is already baptized, the preparation for justification includes an intention (at least implicit) of remaining within the kingdom of God to which baptism itself is the gateway. Fenton
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Understanding Cantate Domino as it was Written
    « Reply #14 on: April 11, 2014, 12:54:45 PM »
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  • Quote
    It is both idle and misleading to characterize the teaching of the Cantate Domino as in any way “rigorous” or exigent [demanding – J.G.].  This doctrine, which is standard Catholic teaching, is only the expression of what God has taught about the place of His Son’s Mystical Body in the economy of man’s salvation.  Neither the Catholic Church itself nor the teachers of the Church have made the Church something requisite for the attainment of the Beatific Vision.  When the Church makes the sort of statement that is found in the Cantate Domino, it is acting merely as the teacher of what God Himself has revealed.  As the Mystical Body of Christ, the society within which Our Lord Himself is the supreme Teacher, the Church could not do otherwise.  Fenton
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

     

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