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Offline Cathedra

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  • Let's hear it then.

    Offline roscoe

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    To Jehanne: "Sedevacantism creates more problems than it solves"
    « Reply #1 on: August 11, 2013, 03:51:20 PM »
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  • There is No Such Thing as 'sede vacantism'.  :reporter:
    There Is No Such Thing As 'Sede Vacantism'...
    nor is there such thing as a 'Feeneyite' or 'Feeneyism'


    Offline Cathedra

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    To Jehanne: "Sedevacantism creates more problems than it solves"
    « Reply #2 on: August 11, 2013, 03:53:56 PM »
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  • Quote from: roscoe
    There is No Such Thing as 'sede vacantism'.  :reporter:


    I've been meaning to ask you why you say such a thing on your signature and why you always say this.

    Do you always mean it as a joke?

    Offline roscoe

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    To Jehanne: "Sedevacantism creates more problems than it solves"
    « Reply #3 on: August 11, 2013, 04:11:49 PM »
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  •  :roll-laugh1:
    There Is No Such Thing As 'Sede Vacantism'...
    nor is there such thing as a 'Feeneyite' or 'Feeneyism'

    Offline Cathedra

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    To Jehanne: "Sedevacantism creates more problems than it solves"
    « Reply #4 on: August 11, 2013, 04:29:45 PM »
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  • Quote from: roscoe
    :roll-laugh1:


    Why are you so childish? Aren't you a grown up?


    Offline Nishant

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    To Jehanne: "Sedevacantism creates more problems than it solves"
    « Reply #5 on: August 11, 2013, 04:36:34 PM »
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  • Quote
    "Sedevacantism creates more problems than it solves"


    Do you believe in Apostolicity of mission? That the true hierarchy is that which received jurisdiction from a Pope, and which must necessarily exist at all times? That is problematic for sedevacantism.

    Quote from: Catholic Encyclopedia
    In explaining the concept of Apostolicity, then, special attention must be given to Apostolicity of mission, or Apostolic succession. Apostolicity of mission means that the Church is one moral body, possessing the mission entrusted by Jesus Christ to the Apostles, and transmitted through them and their lawful successors in an unbroken chain to the present representatives of Christ upon earth. This authoritative transmission of power in the Church constitutes Apostolic succession.

    This Apostolic succession must be both material and formal; the material consisting in the actual succession in the Church, through a series of persons from the Apostolic age to the present; the formal adding the element of authority in the transmission of power. It consists in the legitimate transmission of the ministerial power conferred by Christ upon His Apostles.


    Quote from: Herrmann, Theologiæ Dogmaticæ Institutiones
    Succession may be material or formal. Material succession consists in the fact that there have never been lacking persons who have continuously been substituted for the Apostles ; formal succession consists in the fact that these substituted persons truly enjoy authority derived from the Apostles and received from him who is able to communicate it.

    For someone to be made a successor of the Apostles and pastor of the Church, the power of order — which is always validly conferred by virtue of ordination — is not enough; the power of jurisdiction is also required, and this is conferred not by virtue of ordination but by virtue of a mission received from him to whom Christ has entrusted the supreme power over the universal Church.


    In other words, the canonical mission to teach and rule, by which a Bishop is appointed to office, charged with the pastoral care of a particular flock, and endowed with ordinary jurisdiction, must come from a Pope, this is necessary for Apostolic succession, for a man to be a member of the hierarchy and episcopal college. And this succession cannot cease at any time.
    "Never will anyone who says his Rosary every day become a formal heretic ... This is a statement I would sign in my blood." St. Montfort, Secret of the Rosary. I support the FSSP, the SSPX and other priests who work for the restoration of doctrinal orthodoxy and liturgical orthopraxis in the Church. I accept Vatican II if interpreted in the light of Tradition and canonisations as an infallible declaration that a person is in Heaven. Sedevacantism is schismatic and Ecclesiavacantism is heretical.

    Offline TheKnightVigilant

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    To Jehanne: "Sedevacantism creates more problems than it solves"
    « Reply #6 on: August 11, 2013, 04:51:21 PM »
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  • If you're a recognise-and-resister, you're either a sedevacantist who doesn't know it yet, or you're a heretic, since the idea that one can deliberately and obstinately defy a valid vicar of Christ and remain a faithful Catholic is utterly preposterous and totally heretical.

    Offline Cathedra

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    To Jehanne: "Sedevacantism creates more problems than it solves"
    « Reply #7 on: August 11, 2013, 05:22:29 PM »
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  • Quote from: Nishant
    Do you believe in Apostolicity of mission? That the true hierarchy is that which received jurisdiction from a Pope, and which must necessarily exist at all times? That is problematic for sedevacantism.


    This isn't problematic in the slightest for sedevacantism.

    For the Novus Ordo sect and for "recognize and resisters", on the other hand, IT IS.

    For how can public apostates and heretics have any jurisdiction, and much less SUPPLY IT, such as the last 6 antipopes and the entire novus ordo "hierarchy"?

    Do public heretics and apostates represent the Catholic Church? Do public heretics and apostates have any authority whatsoever?

    Not to mention that is it totally HYPOCRITICAL for "recognize and resisters" to present such an objection, for did the SSPX bishops and priests receive their jurisdiction from any of the last 6 apostate antipopes?

    No; when Lefebvre consecrated 4 bishops in 1988, he was "excommunicated" within 72 hours by "pope" john paul ii and only until recently were these "excommunications" "lifted".

    The SSPX is still not even "officially recognized" by the Novus Ordo sect, so when did any of these antipopes "supply" jurisdiction to them?

    Since we are in an extraordinary situation, of course, where public apostates and heretics have taken over all the Church buildings and offices and the Vatican itself, all truly Catholic and traditional Priests and Bishops receive SUPPLIED JURISDICTION. Fr. Cekada has already explained this at length and it is just astounding how someone like you can still ask such things as if they were some sort of "deathblow" to sedevacantism when in fact it is in favor of it and refutes your position and shows how thouroughly false it is.


    Offline Nishant

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    To Jehanne: "Sedevacantism creates more problems than it solves"
    « Reply #8 on: August 11, 2013, 05:51:10 PM »
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  • First of all, there's no need to descend into polemics, and if you approach delicate matters in sacred theology in such a way, you are almost guaranteed to err. I'll be happy to explain and defend the so-called recognize and resist position, and to show you how such eminent Doctors as St. Thomas and St. Robert mention the possibility of authority being abused, even to the point of unjust excommunications issuing from the Supreme Pontiff. But that wasn't the point of your thread here, I'll remind you. And an attack on the non-sede position does nothing to explain the gigantic difficulty this creates for the position that we have had no Pope for 55 years, because there is no one to appoint bishops to office, no one to give them a canonical mission in that scenario, and most bishops who had it have died by now. If you think a bishop cannot belong to the hierarchy just because he is in the Conciliar Church, that is true for all bishops under your idea but not under the Society's.

    The Society knows only too well what sedevacantists don't take into account, that the true hierarchy is constituted of those who have received a legitimate canonical mission from the Pope. This doctrine of the faith is why the Society says there are still some in the mainstream or Conciliar Church who haven't totally lost the faith yet and why 55 year sedevacantism is monumentally improbable at best when this is taken into account. Yes, we all know jurisdiction is supplied for certain acts to those who do not have it habitually when there is a state of necessity.

    But that is entirely beside the point. Ordinary jurisdiction is necessary for Apostolicity of mission, (and receiving jurisdiction supplied for individual acts is not the same as having  ordinary jurisdiction no matter how many times it is supplied) it is the formal component of the same, that power comes from the Supreme Pontiff to the bishops, and while it is possible for the number of the hierarchy that have kept the faith to be greatly diminished (as the Society maintains), the whole Church cannot be deprived of that power, otherwise the Catholic Church has ceased to be Apostolic, which is impossible. Thoughtful sedevacantists should, before they misguidedly berate non-sedes out of their own misunderstanding, ask themselves the question, where is the hierarchy of the Church today, where are the Bishops appointed to offices in the Church by a Pope, having ordinary jurisdiction? They are in the mainstream Church.
    "Never will anyone who says his Rosary every day become a formal heretic ... This is a statement I would sign in my blood." St. Montfort, Secret of the Rosary. I support the FSSP, the SSPX and other priests who work for the restoration of doctrinal orthodoxy and liturgical orthopraxis in the Church. I accept Vatican II if interpreted in the light of Tradition and canonisations as an infallible declaration that a person is in Heaven. Sedevacantism is schismatic and Ecclesiavacantism is heretical.

    Offline TheKnightVigilant

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    To Jehanne: "Sedevacantism creates more problems than it solves"
    « Reply #9 on: August 11, 2013, 06:22:54 PM »
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  • Just answer these three questions:

    1. How do you justify consciously defying a valid Vicar of Christ?

    2. Can a non-Catholic apostate be the Vicar of Christ?

    3. Can a man who denies that he is the pope be the Vicar of Christ?


    Offline Cathedra

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    To Jehanne: "Sedevacantism creates more problems than it solves"
    « Reply #10 on: August 11, 2013, 06:56:22 PM »
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  • Quote from: Nishant
    First of all, there's no need to descend into polemics, and if you approach delicate matters in sacred theology in such a way, you are almost guaranteed to err. I'll be happy to explain and defend the so-called recognize and resist position, and to show you how such eminent Doctors as St. Thomas and St. Robert mention the possibility of authority being abused,


    Let's stop it right there.

    Before you dare and quote St. Robert Bellarmine, DON'T.

    Unbelievable! Will you dare to quote St. Robert Bellarmine?

    Quote from: Nishant
    even to the point of unjust excommunications issuing from the Supreme Pontiff. But that wasn't the point of your thread here, I'll remind you.


    Of course it is to the point, for you are saying, "oh SV  is false because of apostolicity of misison", when your very own priests and bishops don't have any jurisdiction from the novus ordo and are considered illegitimate by your "popes".

    Quote from: Nishant
    And an attack on the non-sede position does nothing to explain the gigantic difficulty this creates for the position that we have had no Pope for 55 years, because there is no one to appoint bishops to office, no one to give them a canonical mission in that scenario, and most bishops who had it have died by now.


    All this has already been answered and refuted in detail.

    All you're doing is recycling the same junk that has been said for decades.

    Quote from: Nishant
    If you think a bishop cannot belong to the hierarchy just because he is in the Conciliar Church, that is true for all bishops under your idea but not under the Society's.


    Wait a second what is this "Conciliar Church" you are talking about here? Is this "Conciliar Church" the Catholic Church?

    This "bishop who belongs to the novus ordo who has held on to the faith" is outright nonsense and impossible since the new rite of consecration is invalid and the old ones are dead or have shown no signs of them "holding the faith".

    Quote from: Nishant
    The Society knows only too well what sedevacantists don't take into account, that the true hierarchy is constituted of those who have received a legitimate canonical mission from the Pope.


    So the SSPX is completely illicit.

    Quote from: Nishant
    This doctrine of the faith is why the Society says there are still some in the mainstream or Conciliar Church who haven't totally lost the faith yet and why 55 year sedevacantism is monumentally improbable at best when this is taken into account.


    DOCTRINE OF FAITH IS THAT THE CHURCH CANNOT DEFECT.

    I already answered to your so-called "difficulty" about jurisdiction.

    Quote from: Nishant
    Yes, we all know jurisdiction is supplied for certain acts to those who do not have it habitually when there is a state of necessity.

    But that is entirely beside the point. Ordinary jurisdiction is necessary for Apostolicity of mission, (and receiving jurisdiction supplied for individual acts is not the same as having  ordinary jurisdiction no matter how many times it is supplied) it is the formal component of the same, that power comes from the Supreme Pontiff to the bishops, and while it is possible for the number of the hierarchy that have kept the faith to be greatly diminished (as the Society maintains), the whole Church cannot be deprived of that power, otherwise the Catholic Church has ceased to be Apostolic, which is impossible.


    Even IF all that you say were true, which it is not, it doesn't all of a sudden make the modernist heretic apostates in the Vatican NOT heretics apostates and modernists.

    Quote from: Nishant
    Thoughtful sedevacantists should, before they misguidedly berate non-sedes out of their own misunderstanding, ask themselves the question, where is the hierarchy of the Church today, where are the Bishops appointed to offices in the Church by a Pope, having ordinary jurisdiction? They are in the mainstream Church.


    Certainly not in the Novus Ordo.

    You think we are just in some "crisis" which will be overcome and all will be well later.

    We are in the Great Apostasy. Nothing will be the same later and it will only get worse.

    Wake up already.


    Offline Alcuin

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    To Jehanne: "Sedevacantism creates more problems than it solves"
    « Reply #11 on: August 11, 2013, 08:00:49 PM »
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  • Quote from: Cathedra
    You think we are just in some "crisis" which will be overcome and all will be well later.

    We are in the Great Apostasy. Nothing will be the same later and it will only get worse.

    Wake up already.


    That comment speaks volumes - we all need it keep that in mind - we are fast approaching "as in the days of Noah".

    Offline s2srea

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    To Jehanne: "Sedevacantism creates more problems than it solves"
    « Reply #12 on: August 11, 2013, 08:20:40 PM »
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  • Quote from: Cathedra
    Quote from: Nishant
    First of all, there's no need to descend into polemics, and if you approach delicate matters in sacred theology in such a way, you are almost guaranteed to err. I'll be happy to explain and defend the so-called recognize and resist position, and to show you how such eminent Doctors as St. Thomas and St. Robert mention the possibility of authority being abused,


    Let's stop it right there.

    Before you dare and quote St. Robert Bellarmine, DON'T.

    Unbelievable! Will you dare to quote St. Robert Bellarmine?


    First you all ask for a defense of R&R, then you say you don't want to hear it...? :confused1:

    After todays Gospel, I'm going to try to leave it at that and remain charitable. But please, give the man a break. Either give him a chance to explain, or don't ask the question if you think you can't handle it.

    Offline Cathedra

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    To Jehanne: "Sedevacantism creates more problems than it solves"
    « Reply #13 on: August 11, 2013, 08:33:18 PM »
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  • Quote from: s2srea
    Quote from: Cathedra
    Quote from: Nishant
    First of all, there's no need to descend into polemics, and if you approach delicate matters in sacred theology in such a way, you are almost guaranteed to err. I'll be happy to explain and defend the so-called recognize and resist position, and to show you how such eminent Doctors as St. Thomas and St. Robert mention the possibility of authority being abused,


    Let's stop it right there.

    Before you dare and quote St. Robert Bellarmine, DON'T.

    Unbelievable! Will you dare to quote St. Robert Bellarmine?


    First you all ask for a defense of R&R, then you say you don't want to hear it...? :confused1:

    After todays Gospel, I'm going to try to leave it at that and remain charitable. But please, give the man a break. Either give him a chance to explain, or don't ask the question if you think you can't handle it.


    I was being sarcastic because this is so dishonest and has gone on for so many decades that it is intolerable and inexcusable; by all means he can quote chapter 29 of De Romano Pontifice, which deals with a WICKED Pope, and proceed to ignore the NEXT chapter, chapter 30, which deals with a HERETICAL Pope, and gives the TRUTH of the matter.

    Go ahead.

    Offline SJB

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    To Jehanne: "Sedevacantism creates more problems than it solves"
    « Reply #14 on: August 11, 2013, 08:54:38 PM »
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  • Quote from: Cathedra
    Since we are in an extraordinary situation, of course, where public apostates and heretics have taken over all the Church buildings and offices and the Vatican itself, all truly Catholic and traditional Priests and Bishops receive SUPPLIED JURISDICTION. Fr. Cekada has already explained this at length and it is just astounding how someone like you can still ask such things as if they were some sort of "deathblow" to sedevacantism when in fact it is in favor of it and refutes your position and shows how thouroughly false it is.

    Nobody receives supplied jurisdiction. The Church can and does supply jurisdiction for specific acts, but no one "has" supplied jurisdiction. Actually, it is Fr. Cekada who holds the heretical position that the hierarchy has disappeared completely.
    It would be comparatively easy for us to be holy if only we could always see the character of our neighbours either in soft shade or with the kindly deceits of moonlight upon them. Of course, we are not to grow blind to evil

     

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