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Offline Lover of Truth

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« on: August 07, 2013, 02:09:18 PM »
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  • I believe the following is worth perusing for those interested in the topic:

    http://www.dailycatholic.org/issue/13Jul/jul17ftt.htm
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline bowler

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    « Reply #1 on: August 07, 2013, 04:52:33 PM »
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  • Quote from: bowler
    Here's the short and simple for those who are seeking the truth about so-called baptism of desire:

    For 19 centuries of Church history, so-called baptism of desire applied to a person who explicitly desired to be a Catholic. And no catechism ever taught otherwise.

    In the 20th century catechisms began teaching that someone who has no explicit desire to be a Catholic, and even if the person rejected Christ and His Church, could be saved. Below are some examples.

    AND that is the problem! It is a novelty, with no basis in the Fathers of the Church, nor was it ever taught by any Saint, and it is opposed to the dogmatic Athanasian Creed.

    From the book  Against the Heresies, by Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre:

    1. Page 216: “Evidently, certain distinctions must be made.  Souls can be saved in a religion other than the Catholic religion (Protestantism, Islam, Buddhism, etc.), but not by this religion.  There may be souls who, not knowing Our Lord, have by the grace of the good Lord, good interior dispositions, who submit to God...But some of these persons make an act of love which implicitly is equivalent to baptism of desire.  It is uniquely by this means that they are able to be saved.”

    2.Page 217: “One cannot say, then, that no one is saved in these religions…”

    Pages 217-218: “This is then what Pius IX said and what he condemned.  It is necessary to understand the formulation that was so often employed by the Fathers of the Church:  ‘Outside the Church there is no salvation.’  When we say that, it is incorrectly believed that we think that all the Protestants, all the Moslems, all the Buddhists, all those who do not publicly belong to the Catholic Church go to hell.  Now, I repeat, it is possible for someone to be saved in these religions, but they are saved by the Church, and so the formulation is true: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus.  This must be preached.”
    __________________________________________
     
    Bishop Bernard Fellay, Conference in Denver, Co., Feb. 18, 2006: “We know that there are two other baptisms, that of desire and that of blood. These produce an invisible but real link with Christ but do not produce all of the effects which are received in the baptism of water… And the Church has always taught that you have people who will be in heaven, who are in the state of grace, who have been saved without knowing the Catholic Church. We know this. And yet, how is it possible if you cannot be saved outside the Church? It is absolutely true that they will be saved through the Catholic Church because they will be united to Christ, to the Mystical Body of Christ, which is the Catholic Church. It will, however, remain invisible, because this visible link is impossible for them. Consider a Hindu in Tibet who has no knowledge of the Catholic Church. He lives according to his conscience and to the laws which God has put into his heart. He can be in the state of grace, and if he dies in this state of grace, he will go to heaven.” (The Angelus, “A Talk Heard Round the World,” April, 2006, p. 5.)


    And so, whenever anyone talks in favor of Baptism of desire, go straight to the heart of the matter, know that they really all deny the very sources that they bring forward like St. Thomas and St. Alphonsus Ligouri. For they believe what NO Father of the Church, nor Doctor, nor Saint ever believed, that is, that a person who has no explicit desire to be a Catholic, can be saved.

    With that, I say goodbye, for some time I hope. Family and life calls.


    Offline Lover of Truth

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    « Reply #2 on: August 08, 2013, 01:44:03 PM »
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  • Quote from: Lover of Truth
    I believe the following is worth perusing for those interested in the topic:

    http://www.dailycatholic.org/issue/13Jul/jul17ftt.htm


    You did not read the above bowler.  Otherwise you would not have written what you did.  Father Fenton in this above link goes into great detail on how the salvation issue was formed and defined and methodically goes through this and the errors that were taught even before the 19th Century.  He has read all the writings on the issue in their original language.  He is more qualified to speak to the issue than anyone I have come across.  Why not read the link from begging to end.  You can skip my intro at the top if you like.  Just read what he has to say and then refute it.  

    Refute it the right way by quoting him and explaining how he is wrong (not why you believe he is wrong) but how he contradicts what the Church has always taught.

    This may be the best article I have posted for Daily Catholic, mainly because it is mostly not my writing, but Monsignor's Fenton's writing.  And this is the best series of installments I will have posted.  It clarifies the most confusing issue of our day.  It systematically goes through the doctrine and how the errors formed well before Vatican 2.  Give it a read.  He knows about that which he speaks.
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Cathedra

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    « Reply #3 on: August 08, 2013, 01:51:48 PM »
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  • Quote from: Lover of Truth
    I believe the following is worth perusing for those interested in the topic:

    http://www.dailycatholic.org/issue/13Jul/jul17ftt.htm


    You are John Gregory?

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    « Reply #4 on: August 08, 2013, 02:01:31 PM »
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  • That is correct.  But I try not to be.
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church


    Offline Cathedra

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    « Reply #5 on: August 08, 2013, 02:01:41 PM »
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  • How can you reconcile the soul of the Church with this:

    Pope Pius XI, Mortalium Animos (# 10), Jan. 6, 1928: “For since the mystical body of Christ, in the same manner as His physical body, is one, compacted and fitly joined together, it were foolish and out of place to say that the mystical body is made up of members which are disunited and scattered abroad: whosoever therefore is not united with the body is no member of it, neither is he in communion with Christ its head.”

    Offline Cathedra

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    « Reply #6 on: August 08, 2013, 02:03:56 PM »
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  • Quote from: Lover of Truth
    That is correct.  But I try not to be.


    Is the "Gregorius" who has written some things for novusordowatch you as well or is that someone else?

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    « Reply #7 on: August 08, 2013, 02:06:37 PM »
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  • Quote from: Cathedra
    How can you reconcile the soul of the Church with this:

    Pope Pius XI, Mortalium Animos (# 10), Jan. 6, 1928: “For since the mystical body of Christ, in the same manner as His physical body, is one, compacted and fitly joined together, it were foolish and out of place to say that the mystical body is made up of members which are disunited and scattered abroad: whosoever therefore is not united with the body is no member of it, neither is he in communion with Christ its head.”


    That is a correct statement.  You have not read the link either, Father Fenton and the Catholic Church clearly teach that NON-MEMBERS can be saved within the Church.  He presents a summery of all the teachings on this issue and systematically explains how the errors on the issue were formed in the latter centuries.  Please read the link and then ask questions if you have any.

    Saint Robert Bellermine clearly teaches that some within the Church through the inner bonds of unity are NOT members.  We do not deny this.  He clearly defines who the members are and who are not.  He also defines who are within the Church as non-members.  For those who truly want to understand the issue please read the link.  
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church


    Offline Lover of Truth

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    « Reply #8 on: August 08, 2013, 02:10:07 PM »
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  • Quote from: Cathedra
    Quote from: Lover of Truth
    That is correct.  But I try not to be.


    Is the "Gregorius" who has written some things for novusordowatch you as well or is that someone else?


    I wish. He is head and shoulders above me in knowledge.  That is not false humility on my part.  An incredibly gifted writer.  I truly cannot hold a candle to him.
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    « Reply #9 on: August 08, 2013, 02:19:24 PM »
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  • Here.  Let me post a portion of it so at least some of you will read some of it:

    Quote
    The first part of this chapter "On the Definition of the Church" is devoted to the description and the refutation of the various theories evolved by heretics to explain the composition of the true Church militant of the New Testament. St. Robert deals with five of these theories, and then sets forth his own teaching, which is true Catholic doctrine. This is the pertinent section of the second chapter.


       But it is our teaching that there is only one ecclesia, and not two, and that this one and true Church is the assembly of men bound together by the profession of the same Christian faith and the communion of the same sacraments, under the rule of the legitimate pastors, and especially that of the Roman Pontiff, the one Vicar of Christ on earth. From this definition it is easy to infer which men belong to the Church and which do not belong to it. There are three parts of this definition; the profession of the true faith, the communion of the sacraments, and the subjection to the Roman Pontiff, the legitimate pastor.

        By reason of the first part all infidels, both those who have never been in the Church, such as Jews, Turks, and pagans; and those who have been in it and have left it, as heretics and apostates, are excluded. By reason of the second part catechumens and excommunicated persons are excluded, because the former are not yet admitted to the communion of the sacraments, while the latter have been sent away from it. By reason of the third part there are excluded the schismatics who have the faith and the sacraments, but who are not subject to the legitimate pastor and who thus profess the faith and receive the sacraments outside [of the Church]. All others are included [within the Church in the light of the definition] even though they be reprobates, sinful and impious men.

        Now there is this difference between our teaching and all the others [the "definitions" offered by the various heretics, and discussed in the first section of this second chapter of the De ecclesia militante], that all the others require internal virtues to constitute a man "within" the Church, and hence make the true Church invisible. But, despite the fact that we believe that all the virtues, faith, hope, charity, and the rest, are to be found within the Church, we do not think that any internal virtue is required to bring it about that a man can be said absolutely to be a part of the true Church of which the Scriptures speak, but [that what is required for this] is only the outward profession of the faith and the communion of the sacraments, which are perceptible by the senses. For the Church is as visible and palpable an assembly of men as the assembly of the Roman people or the Kingdom of France or the Republic of the Venetians.

        We must note what Augustine says in his Breviculus collationis, where he is dealing with the conference of the third day, that the Church is a living body, in which there is a soul and a body. And the internal gifts of the Holy Ghost, faith, hope, charity, and the rest are the soul. The external profession of the faith and the communication of the sacraments are the body. Hence it is that some are of the soul and of the body of the Church, and hence joined both inwardly and outwardly to Christ the Head, and such people are most perfectly within the Church. They are, as it were, living members in the body, although some of them share in this life to a greater extent, and others to a lesser extent, while still others have only the beginning of life and, as it were, sensation without movement, like the people who have only faith without charity.

        Again, some are of the soul and not of the body, as catechumens and excommunicated persons if they have faith and charity, as they can have them.

        And, finally, some are of the body and not of the soul, as those who have no internal virtue, but who still by reason of some temporal hope or fear, profess the faith and communicate in the sacraments under the rule of the pastors. And such individuals are like hairs or fingernails or evil liquids in a human body.

       Consequently, our definition takes in only this last way of being in the Church, because this is required as a minimum in order that a man may be said to be a part of the visible Church. [De ecclesia militante, c. 2.]


    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    « Reply #10 on: August 08, 2013, 02:30:10 PM »
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  • Quote
    Saint Robert Bellermine clearly teaches that some within the Church through the inner bonds of unity are NOT members.  We do not deny this.  He clearly defines who the members are and who are not.  He also defines who are within the Church as non-members.  For those who truly want to understand the issue please read the link


    What lead to the errors on this issue was Saint Robert's use of the term "body" and "soul" when describing the Church.  People took it to mean that there were two different Church's the body, with the outward bonds of unity and the soul partaking of the inward bonds of unity.  There are not two Church's distinct or overlapping where true members belong.  

    The non-members who partake of the inward bonds of unity and die in a state of sanctifying grace die within the Church though not as members.  But don't read my posts here to understand, read the entire link I have provided.  I might mix you up if I express myself incorrectly.
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church


    Offline Luker

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    « Reply #11 on: August 08, 2013, 10:48:20 PM »
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  • Quote from: Lover of Truth
    I believe the following is worth perusing for those interested in the topic:

    http://www.dailycatholic.org/issue/13Jul/jul17ftt.htm


    Thank you for posting this article, I am reading through it now, it is very informative.  I really like Fr Fenton, he has gone too unappreciated since the council.

    Luke
    Pray the Holy Rosary every day!!

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    « Reply #12 on: August 09, 2013, 04:30:27 AM »
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  • Quote from: Luker
    Quote from: Lover of Truth
    I believe the following is worth perusing for those interested in the topic:

    http://www.dailycatholic.org/issue/13Jul/jul17ftt.htm


    Thank you for posting this article, I am reading through it now, it is very informative.  I really like Fr Fenton, he has gone too unappreciated since the council.

    Luke


    Thank you Luke.  I'll post more snippets here for those who do not have time to read the whole thing.
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    « Reply #13 on: August 09, 2013, 11:57:35 AM »
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  • From Fenton:

    In the passage just quoted, St. Robert Bellarmine sets out to explain and to define the thesis he is going to defend and explain throughout the rest of the book De ecclesia militante. The outstanding talent of this great Doctor of the Church is precisely his power of forceful and clear exposition. In the section we have just cited, that talent was exercised as perfectly as it is in any section of his works.

        St. Robert contends that the one and only supernatural kingdom of God on earth, the ecclesia spoken of in the Scriptures, has been constituted by God as a society composed of members or parts whose appurtenance [going with and belonging - J.G.] to this company is manifest to all men. He asserts that the factors by which a man is constituted as a member or a part of this company are the profession of the true Christian faith, access to the sacraments, and subjection to the Roman Pontiff. The group which is God's one and only ecclesia in this world is actually the company of men who have these factors of unity.

        He acknowledges the presence within the Church of faith, hope, charity, and the other supernatural virtues. Furthermore he realizes that these infused virtues themselves constitute another bond of unity with Our Lord and among His disciples. Nevertheless he insists that this spiritual or inward bond of unity is not the factor which constitutes a man as a part or a member of the Church militant of the New Testament.

        Yet despite the perfection of St. Robert's teaching and the clarity of his exposition, this section of the second chapter of his De ecclesia militante was destined to be the source of serious and highly unfortunate misunderstanding by subsequent theologians. The weak part of this, perhaps the most important single passage in the writings of any post-Tridentine theologian, was St. Robert's use of the terms "soul" and "body" with reference to the Church.

    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Nishant

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    « Reply #14 on: August 09, 2013, 03:32:56 PM »
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  • Quote from: Msgr. Fenton
    Now most theologians teach that the minimum explicit content of supernatural and salvific faith includes, not only the truths of God’s existence and of His action as the Rewarder of good and the Punisher of evil, but also the mysteries of the Blessed Trinity and the Incarnation.


    Msgr. Fenton teaches this himself as well.
    "Never will anyone who says his Rosary every day become a formal heretic ... This is a statement I would sign in my blood." St. Montfort, Secret of the Rosary. I support the FSSP, the SSPX and other priests who work for the restoration of doctrinal orthodoxy and liturgical orthopraxis in the Church. I accept Vatican II if interpreted in the light of Tradition and canonisations as an infallible declaration that a person is in Heaven. Sedevacantism is schismatic and Ecclesiavacantism is heretical.

     

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