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Offline philipofJMJ

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Two saints, to know and love
« on: March 01, 2015, 05:12:06 AM »
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  • The Catholic Baptism of Saint Constantine The Great, by Pope Sylvester I

     Constantine The Great, received The Catholic Baptism from Pope Sylvester I. This is attested to in the Roman Catholic Martyrology on December 31 of each year, under the heading of Saint Sylvester I Pope. "Romæ natális sancti Silvéstri Primi, Papæ et Confessóris; qui Magnum Constantínum Imperatórem baptizávit, et Nicænam confirmávit Synodum, ac, multis áliis rebus sanctíssime gestis, quiévit in pace. At Rome, the birthday of Pope St. Sylvester I, confessor, who baptized Emperor Constantine the Great, and confirmed the council of Nicaea. After performing many other holy deeds, he rested in peace." from http://www.breviary.mobi/martyrology/mart12/mart1231.htm The mother of Saint Constantine was The Empress Saint Helena, who founded The Holy Cross. "Helena (empress) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helena_(Empress)
    Disputing the "baptism" at death, by the Arian heretic Eusebius, of the Great Constantine I, Holy Catholic Emperor: He was baptized during life by Saint Pope Sylvester I. Nota Bene: In many of the Wikipedia articles on Saint Constantine The Great, it is erroneously stated that he was baptized at death by an Arian heretic.  The Holy Catholic Church celebrates his feastday, along with his mother, Saint Helena, each year, on the 21st day of the fifth month.
    Emperor Constantine the Great was baptized by Pope St. Sylvester I. See The Roman and British Martyrology. Publisher: O’Neill and Duggan, Dublin, 1846. 31st December, p. 427: "In Rome, the feast of St. Sylvester, pope, who baptized the Emperor Constantine, and confirmed the decrees of the Council of Nice." Also see The Roman Breviary, translated out of Latin into English by John, Marquess of Bute, K. T. Publisher: William Blackwood and Sons, Edinburgh and London, 1908. Vol. 1, Winter, Dec. 31: Pope St. Sylvester, Matins: Second Nocturn: Fourth Lesson, p. 307: "Silvester [I.] was a Roman by birth, and his father’s name was Rufinus. ... In his thirtieth year he was ordained Priest of the Holy Roman Church by Pope Marcellinus. In the discharge of his duties he became a model for all the clergy, and, after the death of Melchiades, he succeeded him on the Papal throne, [in the year of our Lord 314,] during the reign of Constantine, who had already by public decree proclaimed peace to the Church of Christ. ...It was Silvester who caused him [Emperor Constantine] to recognise the images of the Apostles, administered to him holy Baptism, and cleansed him from the leprosy..." and The Roman Breviary, translated out of Latin into English by John, Marquess of Bute, K. T. Publisher: William Blackwood and Sons, Edinburgh and London, 1908. Vol. 2, Summer, November 9: Dedication of the Cathedral Church of the Most Holy Saviour, at Rome, Matins: Second Nocturn: Fifth Lesson, pp. 1346-47: "But when the Emperor Constantine had by the Sacrament of Baptism received health both of body and soul, then first in a law by him published was it allowed to the Christians throughout the whole world to build Churches, to the which holy building he exhorted them by his example as well as by his decree. He dedicated in his own Lateran Palace a Church to the Saviour, and built hard by it a Cathedral in the name of St. John the Baptist, upon the place where he had been baptized by holy Silvester and cleansed from his leprosy." Also see the Liber Pontificalis for December 31 and the inscription on a side of the St. John Lateran obelisk at Rome which reads, "CONSTANTINUS PER CRUCEM VICTOR AS SILVESTRO HIC BAPTIZATUS CRUCIS GLORIAM PROPAGAVIT." (Della Letteratura Italiana, by Cesare Cantù. Publisher: Presso L’Unione Tipografico-Editrice, Torino, 1856. Chap. 5, §4, p. 338)CatholicCrusade2013 22:52, 3 February 2015 (UTC) —
    I would also like to add another source from the Chronologies of Theophanes the Confessor: Chronographia of Theophanis, ex recensione Ioannis Classeni. Publisher: Bonnae IMPENSIS ED. WEBERI, 1839. Volume 1, p. 25: "A.C. 314 Hoc anno, ut nonnulli referunt, magnus Constantinus cum Crispo filio Romae a Sylvestro baptizatus est..." (Translation: A.C. 314 This year, some relate, the great Constantine, with his son Crispus, was baptized by Sylvester at Rome.) CatholicCrusade2013 23:28, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

    Offline philipofJMJ

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    « Reply #1 on: March 01, 2015, 05:26:19 AM »
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  • Of course, plain old common sense, tells us that a non Catholic would never be allowed to call the Council of Nicea.  Saint Constantine the Great not only called the council, but led it, and participated in it, calling the assembled bishops there, his "brothers".  Beware of Arian heretics who doubt Saint Constantine's Baptism by Pope Sylvester I, and claim he was baptized only at death, and that by an apostate Arian bishop.  Wikipedia editors refused to accept the Catholic 'Church's own writings, and prefer to go by so called "modern scholars".  This sounds like the "modern scholars" who say that Pilate killed Jesus Christ, and that an antenna breaking, demolished building 7, or that the Words of Consecration mean "for all men".
    One fair minded editor mentioned above, correctly wrote the following about Wikipedia's non Catholic bias:  "If modern writers are too prejudice against Emperor Constantine to state the truth or at least even mention Constantine's baptism by Pope Sylvester, it is obvious that I would not cite them when I am trying to show that this IS a valid opinion, even though not held by "modern" so-called scholars. Before you were even born these books were considered valuable sources; and to Catholics, they still are. Kansas Bear, you are playing a mind game with sources and I am not going to keep going back and forth with you. You are but one contributor to Wikipedia and I don't yet believe everyone on here has their mind as closed to fairness and neutrality.I am asking again that my sources are allowed as entries on this page. CatholicCrusade2013 04:38, 4 February 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by CatholicCrusade2013 (talk • contribs)


    Offline Tridentine MT

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    « Reply #2 on: March 01, 2015, 04:40:15 PM »
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  • Same error in the Italian version of Wikipedia.
    "Recent reforms have amply demonstrated that fresh changes in the liturgy could lead to nothing but complete bewilderment on the part of the faithful" Cardinal Alfredo Ottaviani

    "Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre and Bishop

    Offline Meg

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    « Reply #3 on: March 03, 2015, 04:24:18 PM »
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  • According to Michael Davies, in his book called, "Saint Athanasius, defender of the Faith," Emperor Constantine was baptized by an Arian heretic by the name of Eusebius of Nicomedia (not to be confused with St. Eusebius of Vercelli, who was a courageous opponent of Arianism).

    I think that the Orthodox did canonize Constantine.

    Offline Tridentine MT

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    « Reply #4 on: March 04, 2015, 01:19:58 AM »
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  • Quote from: Meg
    According to Michael Davies, in his book called, "Saint Athanasius, defender of the Faith," Emperor Constantine was baptized by an Arian heretic by the name of Eusebius of Nicomedia (not to be confused with St. Eusebius of Vercelli, who was a courageous opponent of Arianism).

    I think that the Orthodox did canonize Constantine.


    Did conditional baptism exist at the time?

    Could it be the case that Constantine was first baptised by Pope St. Sylvester I and later on by the Arian Eusebius? Or vice-versa, depending on the dates?
    "Recent reforms have amply demonstrated that fresh changes in the liturgy could lead to nothing but complete bewilderment on the part of the faithful" Cardinal Alfredo Ottaviani

    "Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre and Bishop


    Offline Meg

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    « Reply #5 on: March 04, 2015, 09:57:36 AM »
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  • Michael Davies makes no mention of Constantine being baptized conditionally by Pope Sylvester. I assume that his research was thorough, but maybe there's good evidence somewhere that Constantine was baptized by Pope Sylvester.

    Though Constantine was tolerant of Christianity, he was also tolerant of Paganism and Arianism. Michael Davies states that Constantine was baptized on his deathbed by an Arian named Eusebius of Nicomedia (who was the leader of the Arians after the death of Arius. In fact, the Arians were called Eusebians, rather than Arians, but it was the same heresy). Here's the relevant passage in Davies' book:

    (Page 5) "In 324, Constantine defeated and executed Licinius, the Eastern Emperor , and so became the ruler of the entire empire. He was asked to intervene in the dispute to which he wished to bring a conclusion in the interests of unity in his empire. His eventual decision was to convoke a general Council of the Church at Nicea at Bithynia, over which he would preside even though he was not a Christian. He was eventually baptized on his deathbed by the Arian Eusebius of Nicomedia. Constantine provided the bishops with carriages and horses and offered them hospitality for the duration of the Council. Among those present when the Council met in 325 was the Patriarch Alexander of Alexandria with his brilliant young deacon Athanasius. Pope Sylvester l could not make the long journey due to his age, but was represented by his legates. Arius was given every opportunity to present his case but it was condemned."

    Offline Tridentine MT

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    « Reply #6 on: March 04, 2015, 10:04:28 AM »
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  • Thanks Meg.
    "Recent reforms have amply demonstrated that fresh changes in the liturgy could lead to nothing but complete bewilderment on the part of the faithful" Cardinal Alfredo Ottaviani

    "Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre and Bishop

    Offline steelcross

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    « Reply #7 on: March 04, 2015, 07:56:58 PM »
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  • I areas the book Defender of the Faith too, and Davis also says that when the Catholic Bishops refused to allow any Arian heritic bishop into their meetings, Constantine persecuted the Catholic Bishops. I never heard of Constantine being labeled a saint, for he was a roman soldier and spilled blood. Like William Wallace is considered a Christian hero but not a saint. St. Joan of Arc led an army, but did not spill blood, she never used her sword in battle, but as a sign of authority.


    Offline BTNYC

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    « Reply #8 on: March 04, 2015, 11:45:43 PM »
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  • Constantine is venerated as a saint by the eastern schismatics and the Church tolerates his veneration by eastern Catholics, but he is not now - and never was - a canonized saint in the Roman Church.

    Offline Nadir

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    « Reply #9 on: March 05, 2015, 04:21:05 AM »
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  • Quote from: steelcross
    I never heard of Constantine being labeled a saint, for he was a roman soldier and spilled blood. Like William Wallace is considered a Christian hero but not a saint. St. Joan of Arc led an army, but did not spill blood, she never used her sword in battle, but as a sign of authority.


    Steelcross, one is not excluded from sainthood because one "spilled blood".  There is such a thing as self defense and just war. There are saints who spilled blood, (St Longinus, the Roman soldier who pierced the side of Jesus as He hung on the Cross), and those who in all probability spilled blood. (St Ignatius of Loyola and St Francis both went to war and more than likely did what soldiers are expected to do). There are saints who were culpable for spilled blood, having approved and encouraged it, for example the great St Paul.

    Spilling blood may be sinful but not always. If sinful, the spiller of blood repents and does penance for the sin. And may live in such a way as to become a saint.

    Offline BTNYC

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    « Reply #10 on: March 05, 2015, 08:52:45 AM »
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  • Quote from: Nadir
    Quote from: steelcross
    I never heard of Constantine being labeled a saint, for he was a roman soldier and spilled blood. Like William Wallace is considered a Christian hero but not a saint. St. Joan of Arc led an army, but did not spill blood, she never used her sword in battle, but as a sign of authority.


    Steelcross, one is not excluded from sainthood because one "spilled blood".  There is such a thing as self defense and just war. There are saints who spilled blood, (St Longinus, the Roman soldier who pierced the side of Jesus as He hung on the Cross), and those who in all probability spilled blood. (St Ignatius of Loyola and St Francis both went to war and more than likely did what soldiers are expected to do). There are saints who were culpable for spilled blood, having approved and encouraged it, for example the great St Paul.

    Spilling blood may be sinful but not always. If sinful, the spiller of blood repents and does penance for the sin. And may live in such a way as to become a saint.


    Excellent point, Nadir. I'd overlooked Steelcross' error here. Thank you for correcting it.


    Offline B from A

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    « Reply #11 on: March 05, 2015, 11:40:47 AM »
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  • Quote from: BTNYC
    Quote from: Nadir
    Quote from: steelcross
    I never heard of Constantine being labeled a saint, for he was a roman soldier and spilled blood. Like William Wallace is considered a Christian hero but not a saint. St. Joan of Arc led an army, but did not spill blood, she never used her sword in battle, but as a sign of authority.


    Steelcross, one is not excluded from sainthood because one "spilled blood".  There is such a thing as self defense and just war. There are saints who spilled blood, (St Longinus, the Roman soldier who pierced the side of Jesus as He hung on the Cross), and those who in all probability spilled blood. There are saints who were culpable for spilled blood, having approved and encouraged it, for example the great St Paul.

    Spilling blood may be sinful but not always. If sinful, the spiller of blood repents and does penance for the sin. And may live in such a way as to become a saint.


    Excellent point, Nadir. I'd overlooked Steelcross' error here. Thank you for correcting it.


    Yes, I thought that was strange; never heard of "spilling blood" as an impediment to canonization.  

    Quote
    (St Ignatius of Loyola and St Francis both went to war and more than likely did what soldiers are expected to do).


    Likewise St. Maurice of the Theban Legion comes to mind.  And King St. Louis IX, who fought in a few Crusades, did he not?

    FWIW, I heard all my life that Constantine did not get baptized until his deathbed, long before I ever heard of Arians or even "Traditional Catholicism" for that matter.  I always assumed the reason he was never canonized was because he didn't live a life of heroic saintly virtue.  If it's true that he put off Baptism until his deathbed, that hardly constitutes heroic saintly virtue to be used as a model.


     

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