Author Topic: Lost my mind  (Read 733 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline LaramieHirsch

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2404
  • Reputation: +797/-48
  • Gender: Male
    • h
Lost my mind
« on: January 11, 2017, 05:00:13 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • St. Basil/ Gregory of Nyssa does not say this:

    Quote
    All the angels, having but one appellation, have likewise among themselves the same nature, even though some of them are set over nations, while others of them are guardians to each one of the faithful.


    It does not exist.  I don't care how many websites quote this, or if it's in italics.  They may say it's in Against Eunomius, book 3, first part...but it's not.  It doesn't exist.  It's a lie!  St. Basil never said this.  EVER!

    I've spent hours looking through (what I thought was) original source material.  Guess what?  The quote is nowhere in there.  

    And then, there's this tidbit from a very old book that everyone takes on faith:

    Quote
    He says, at the beginning of his 3 Book against Eunomius, that all the angels have indeed the same name, and are of the same nature; but that some preside over whole nations, and others take care of every faithful person.  Now, as much as a whole Nation is to be preferred before a single man, so much is the dignity of an angel committed over a whole nation, above that of another angel, who has only the keeping of a single person.  

    Yeah, that doesn't exist.  I've spent quite a while looking for both of these quotations, and I'm quite convinced they're made up.  Perhaps they state fact, but I see NO evidence of St. Basil saying them at all.  

     :really-mad2:
    .........................

    Before some audiences not even the possession of the exactest knowledge will make it easy for what we say to produce conviction. For argument based on knowledge implies instruction, and there are people whom one cannot instruct.  - Aristotle

    Offline TKGS

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 4165
    • Reputation: +3574/-186
    • Gender: Male
    Lost my mind
    « Reply #1 on: January 11, 2017, 06:32:42 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I've actually never seen this supposed quote before.  Why did you find it necessary to bring it up now?  Is there some controversy that this quote is being used to defend?


    Offline LaramieHirsch

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2404
    • Reputation: +797/-48
    • Gender: Male
      • h
    Lost my mind
    « Reply #2 on: January 11, 2017, 10:44:03 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: TKGS
    I've actually never seen this supposed quote before.  Why did you find it necessary to bring it up now?  Is there some controversy that this quote is being used to defend?


    No.  Just sharing it with colleagues as a lesson.  You can have a quotation out there from anyone that never exists.  The necessity for being careful in your resiearch is important, friends.
    .........................

    Before some audiences not even the possession of the exactest knowledge will make it easy for what we say to produce conviction. For argument based on knowledge implies instruction, and there are people whom one cannot instruct.  - Aristotle

    Offline JohnAnthonyMarie

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1206
    • Reputation: +581/-49
    • Gender: Male
      • h
    Lost my mind
    « Reply #3 on: January 11, 2017, 12:07:02 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Omnes pro Christo

    Offline LaramieHirsch

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2404
    • Reputation: +797/-48
    • Gender: Male
      • h
    Lost my mind
    « Reply #4 on: January 11, 2017, 03:45:22 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: JohnAnthonyMarie
    https://books.google.com/books?id=KPbi_nBITycC&pg=PA14#v=onepage&q&f=false

    Seems to be referenced in the above book link.


    Yes.  That's the quote/citation.  However, can you find that same passage in the original source?  

    Against Eunomius is on New Advent, and yet, Book 3 does not feature this passage:


    http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/290103.htm

    And yet, here again if you do not like New Advent, is a pdf copy of Against Eunomius:

    http://www.documentacatholicaomnia.eu/03d/0330-0395,_Gregorius_Nyssenus,_Contra_Eunomium_[Schaff],_EN.pdf



    So, the passage from your book is not in the original source document.  Where is your author getting this idea?  It is NOT there.  How can there be such a disparity as this?

    It's driving me mad.
    .........................

    Before some audiences not even the possession of the exactest knowledge will make it easy for what we say to produce conviction. For argument based on knowledge implies instruction, and there are people whom one cannot instruct.  - Aristotle


    Offline TKGS

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 4165
    • Reputation: +3574/-186
    • Gender: Male
    Lost my mind
    « Reply #5 on: January 11, 2017, 05:31:54 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I have encountered this before as well.  While researching some subject a few years ago, I came across a website that provided some very specific information that was pretty fantastic.  The website provided its source.  The source was from a book which I ordered through my public library's inter-library loan program.  Upon receipt of the book, I found that the book did indeed provide that information and it included a source in a footnote which I was able to find online.  The online source quoted a website--it was the original website on which I found the information!  

    I have long wondered who was the first to make up the information, but I never did find any other source of the information.

    Offline LaramieHirsch

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2404
    • Reputation: +797/-48
    • Gender: Male
      • h
    Lost my mind
    « Reply #6 on: January 11, 2017, 09:36:32 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: TKGS
    I have encountered this before as well.  While researching some subject a few years ago, I came across a website that provided some very specific information that was pretty fantastic.  The website provided its source.  The source was from a book which I ordered through my public library's inter-library loan program.  Upon receipt of the book, I found that the book did indeed provide that information and it included a source in a footnote which I was able to find online.  The online source quoted a website--it was the original website on which I found the information!  

    I have long wondered who was the first to make up the information, but I never did find any other source of the information.


    I tried to carefully read through the two original source documents I linked to, in order to see if, perhaps, the wording is twisted or in an archaic fashion.  But even doing that, the documents do not match to that book that JohnAnthonyMarie linked to.  

    And still, even more infuriating are some old books from the 1960s that quote St. Basil as though he's stated what JohnAnthonyMarie's book says.  And yet, I look in the original source, and it's just not there.  
    .........................

    Before some audiences not even the possession of the exactest knowledge will make it easy for what we say to produce conviction. For argument based on knowledge implies instruction, and there are people whom one cannot instruct.  - Aristotle

    Offline JohnAnthonyMarie

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1206
    • Reputation: +581/-49
    • Gender: Male
      • h
    Lost my mind
    « Reply #7 on: January 11, 2017, 09:44:48 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • What source are you using as an original?
    Omnes pro Christo


    Offline LaramieHirsch

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2404
    • Reputation: +797/-48
    • Gender: Male
      • h
    Lost my mind
    « Reply #8 on: January 11, 2017, 11:52:28 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: JohnAnthonyMarie
    What source are you using as an original?


    original sources here:

    http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/290103.htm



    http://www.documentacatholicaomnia.eu/03d/0330-0395,_Gregorius_Nyssenus,_Contra_Eunomium_[Schaff],_EN.pdf
    .........................

    Before some audiences not even the possession of the exactest knowledge will make it easy for what we say to produce conviction. For argument based on knowledge implies instruction, and there are people whom one cannot instruct.  - Aristotle

    Offline Neil Obstat

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 14233
    • Reputation: +7251/-146
    • Gender: Male
    Lost my mind
    « Reply #9 on: January 12, 2017, 12:38:38 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: LaramieHirsch

    It's driving me mad.


    Are you so sure you were sane previously?   :scratchchin:

    .--. .-.-.- ... .-.-.- ..-. --- .-. - .... . -.- .. -. --. -.. --- -- --..-- - .... . .--. --- .-- . .-. .- -. -.. -....- -....- .--- ..- ... - -.- .. -.. -.. .. -. --. .-.-.

    Offline LaramieHirsch

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2404
    • Reputation: +797/-48
    • Gender: Male
      • h
    Lost my mind
    « Reply #10 on: January 12, 2017, 03:20:36 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: Neil Obstat
    Quote from: LaramieHirsch

    It's driving me mad.


    Are you so sure you were sane previously?   :scratchchin:



    I think so.  I'll have to check.
    .........................

    Before some audiences not even the possession of the exactest knowledge will make it easy for what we say to produce conviction. For argument based on knowledge implies instruction, and there are people whom one cannot instruct.  - Aristotle


    Offline JohnAnthonyMarie

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1206
    • Reputation: +581/-49
    • Gender: Male
      • h
    Lost my mind
    « Reply #11 on: January 12, 2017, 09:46:01 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: LaramieHirsch
    Quote from: JohnAnthonyMarie
    What source are you using as an original?


    original sources here:

    http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/290103.htm



    http://www.documentacatholicaomnia.eu/03d/0330-0395,_Gregorius_Nyssenus,_Contra_Eunomium_[Schaff],_EN.pdf


    Those are not originals.  In the link I provided there is information about accepted sources.
    Omnes pro Christo

    Offline LaramieHirsch

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2404
    • Reputation: +797/-48
    • Gender: Male
      • h
    Lost my mind
    « Reply #12 on: January 12, 2017, 10:02:04 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: JohnAnthonyMarie
    Quote from: LaramieHirsch
    Quote from: JohnAnthonyMarie
    What source are you using as an original?


    original sources here:

    http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/290103.htm



    http://www.documentacatholicaomnia.eu/03d/0330-0395,_Gregorius_Nyssenus,_Contra_Eunomium_[Schaff],_EN.pdf


    Those are not originals.  In the link I provided there is information about accepted sources.


    I heartily thank you for looking into this matter with me.  This is why we have public forums.  So that such things can get worked out.  I will take a look at your link later tonight.   :applause:
    .........................

    Before some audiences not even the possession of the exactest knowledge will make it easy for what we say to produce conviction. For argument based on knowledge implies instruction, and there are people whom one cannot instruct.  - Aristotle

     

    Sitemap 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16