Author Topic: Vatican: Russia is the Most Religious Nation in Europe  (Read 1444 times)

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Offline Augstine Baker

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Vatican: Russia is the Most Religious Nation in Europe
« on: August 05, 2011, 01:54:18 PM »
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  • Russia is the most religious nation in Europe, which explains why Pope Benedict XVI wants to establish an alliance to protect Christian values against pervasive secularism
    marco tosatti
    ROMe

    A huge majority of Russians believe in God: 82% according to a report published by the Public Opinion foundation and Wednesday, a sociological institute associated with the synod of the orthodox Russian church for youth.   The report has a database of responses gathered during the last few months from 1,500 people from the age of 18 years and older and residing in 44 regions in Russia.

    The outcome is very surprising.  In a country where atheism has been taught for several generations, which has established university faculties and at least one museum dedicated to the topic, and which has tried to spread it in many parts of the world, only 13 interviewees stated that they were definitely atheist, while 5% said they were not sure.  Most of the atheists are men (68%), while only 32% are women.  Atheism seems to be more popular in the lower social classes, namely workers or poor people who do not even have enough to eat.  27% of those who said that they believe in the existence of God do not belong to any organized religion.  This was the response of 34% of young people between 18 and 24 years of age and 38% of students. 4% stated that they are Muslim; there were very few Buddhists, Catholics, Protestants, or Jҽωs.  50% of the believers are Orthodox Christians and most belong to the Russian Orthodox Church.

    http://vaticaninsider.lastampa.it/en/homepage/world-news/detail/articolo/mosca-russia-secolarizzazione-264/

    Courtesy of AQ

    Offline rowsofvoices9

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    Vatican: Russia is the Most Religious Nation in Europe
    « Reply #1 on: August 05, 2011, 09:24:23 PM »
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  • Only after Russia has been consecrated to the Immaculate Heart of Mary will she become the holiest nation not just in Europe but the entire world  At present God is still using her as His instrument to scourge and punish the world. Once she is truly converted, she will become His instrument to bring about the conversion of and renewal of the Church and the rest of the world.
    My conscience compels me to make this disclaimer lest God judges me partly culpable for the errors and heresy promoted on this forum... For the record I support neither Sedevacantism or the SSPX.  I do not define myself as either a traditionalist or Novus


    Offline LordPhan

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    Vatican: Russia is the Most Religious Nation in Europe
    « Reply #2 on: August 05, 2011, 09:28:57 PM »
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  • Quote from: rowsofvoices9
    Only after Russia has been consecrated to the Immaculate Heart of Mary will she become the holiest nation not just in Europe but the entire world  At present God is still using her as His instrument to scourge and punish the world. Once she is truly converted, she will become His instrument to bring about the conversion of and renewal of the Church and the rest of the world.


    I was talking with  Father Gruner(sp) and the fatima crusaders on monday and they said about the same thing as this.

    Offline herbert

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    Vatican: Russia is the Most Religious Nation in Europe
    « Reply #3 on: August 08, 2011, 07:41:01 PM »
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  • Quote from: Augstine Baker
    Atheism seems to be more popular in the lower social classes, namely workers or poor people


    thats strange. complete opposite everwhere else.

    Offline LordPhan

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    Vatican: Russia is the Most Religious Nation in Europe
    « Reply #4 on: August 08, 2011, 08:55:32 PM »
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  • Quote from: herbert
    Quote from: Augstine Baker
    Atheism seems to be more popular in the lower social classes, namely workers or poor people


    thats strange. complete opposite everwhere else.


    No What Augstine Baker said is true, you have been manipulated into believing this.

    So lets see, of the people I have met in my life, about 99% of the lower classes have been atheists. Of the higher classes most of the people I have met have not been atheists.

    Of my friends from the SSPX I can count a PhD in History, a PhD in Biology, at least 2 Lawyers, a Teacher and insurance broker.... just to list a few.


    Offline herbert

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    Vatican: Russia is the Most Religious Nation in Europe
    « Reply #5 on: August 08, 2011, 09:15:31 PM »
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  • Quote from: LordPhan
    Quote from: herbert
    Quote from: Augstine Baker
    Atheism seems to be more popular in the lower social classes, namely workers or poor people


    thats strange. complete opposite everwhere else.


    No What Augstine Baker said is true, you have been manipulated into believing this.

    So lets see, of the people I have met in my life, about 99% of the lower classes have been atheists. Of the higher classes most of the people I have met have not been atheists.

    Of my friends from the SSPX I can count a PhD in History, a PhD in Biology, at least 2 Lawyers, a Teacher and insurance broker.... just to list a few.


    well as a lawyer i can corroborate your experience. many highly educated people are beleivers and many poor people are irreligious. atheism is too intellectual for the poor, so i would not describe them as being atheists.

    however most religious people are poor. if religion was only attractive to upper classes catholcism would have died out long time ago.

    however, i was not saying that augstine observations of the lower classes in russia aren't true. (i actually gave his post a thumbs up bevasue i found it intersting.) that may be the case, but if so, it is very odd compared to reast of the world.

    Offline LordPhan

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    Vatican: Russia is the Most Religious Nation in Europe
    « Reply #6 on: August 08, 2011, 10:28:44 PM »
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  • Atheism is not intellectual, it is the anti-thesis of intellectual, it is scientifically impossible for their not to be a God. Read up on the Second Law of ThermoDynamics, the laws of Physics, the Laws of Information Exchange(Information can only come from an intelligent source) etc.

    Atheism is a way for the devil to make stupid people believe it is ok to sin.

    Not all well off people are intelligent, not all poor people are stupid. There are many geniuses who are poor and many stupid people who are well off with important jobs. Education also dosn't relate to Intelligence except in that it will take less time for an intelligent person to become educated in the same thing in the same circumstances.

    Remember, ƈσmmυɳιsm, Socialism, Nazism all came from the lower classes.

    Most athiests are poor or at least live poorly based on how they live etc. Catholics who are poor will live much much better in the long run then any atheists.

    :)

    Offline Daegus

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    Vatican: Russia is the Most Religious Nation in Europe
    « Reply #7 on: August 08, 2011, 10:34:32 PM »
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  • Quote from: LordPhan
    Quote from: herbert
    Quote from: Augstine Baker
    Atheism seems to be more popular in the lower social classes, namely workers or poor people


    thats strange. complete opposite everwhere else.


    No What Augstine Baker said is true, you have been manipulated into believing this.

    So lets see, of the people I have met in my life, about 99% of the lower classes have been atheists. Of the higher classes most of the people I have met have not been atheists.

    Of my friends from the SSPX I can count a PhD in History, a PhD in Biology, at least 2 Lawyers, a Teacher and insurance broker.... just to list a few.


    What's the point of striving for higher things in life when, according to the atheist mentality, life has no real meaning?
    For those who I have unjustly offended, please forgive me. Please disregard my posts where I lacked charity and you will see that I am actually a very nice person. Disregard my opinions on "NFP", "Baptism of Desire/Blood" and the changes made to the sacra


    Offline s2srea

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    Vatican: Russia is the Most Religious Nation in Europe
    « Reply #8 on: August 09, 2011, 09:06:04 AM »
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  • Quote from: Daegus

    What's the point of striving for higher things in life when, according to the atheist mentality, life has no real meaning?


    Daegus- good question, but to them it would fall on deaf ears! They'd surely have some ridiculous comeback, "Oh, life HAS meaning- we need to LOVE LOVE LOVE each other while we're still here. Religion destroys that"


    BAH!

    Offline s2srea

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    Vatican: Russia is the Most Religious Nation in Europe
    « Reply #9 on: August 09, 2011, 09:08:25 AM »
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  • I've been testy lately, sorry.

    Offline parentsfortruth

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    Vatican: Russia is the Most Religious Nation in Europe
    « Reply #10 on: August 09, 2011, 09:37:33 AM »
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  • If I recall...

    There was some Vatican-Russian agreement back in the 1960's that basically stated something to the effect that the Catholic Church would stay out of Russia, and that both the Russian Orthodox Church, and the Roman Catholic Church were on some kind of "equal footing."

    Does anyone else remember anything like this?
    Matthew 5:37

    But let your speech be yea, yea: no, no: and that which is over and above these, is of evil.

    My Avatar is Fr. Hector Bolduc. He was a faithful parish priest in De Pere, WI,


    Offline inprincipio

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    Vatican: Russia is the Most Religious Nation in Europe
    « Reply #11 on: August 09, 2011, 10:26:54 AM »
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  • Indeed there was such an agreement:


    "The Pact of Metz

    Atila Sinke Guimarães

    Why didn’t the last Ecumenical Council condemn ƈσmmυɳιsm? A secret accord made at Metz supplies an answer.

    Those who pass by the convent of the Little Sisters of the Poor in Borny - on the outskirts of the French city of Metz - never imagine that something of transcendental importance occurred in the residence of Fr. Lagarde, the convent’s chaplain. In a hall of this religious residence in August 1962 - two months before Vatican Council II opened - a secret meeting of the greatest importance between two high-ranking personalities took place.

    A007HT1   
    Another player:
    Cardinal Tisserant

       
       A007HT1
       
    One player at Metz:
    metrolitan Nikodin

       
    One dignitary was a Cardinal of the Curia, Eugène Tisserant, representing Pope John XXIII; the other was metropolitan Nikodin, who spoke in the name of the Russian Schismatic Church.

    This encounter had consequences that changed the direction of Council, which was already prepared to open. In effect, the meeting at Metz determined a change in the trajectory of the very History of the Church in the 20th century.

    What was the matter of such great importance that was resolved at his meeting? Based on the documents that are known today, there it was established that ƈσmmυɳιsm would not be condemned by Vatican Council II. In 1962, The Vatican and the Schismatic Russian Church came to an agreement. According to its terms, the Russian “Orthodox Church” agreed to send observers to Vatican II under the condition that no condemnation whatsoever of ƈσmmυɳιsm should be made there (1).

        1. Ulysses Floridi, Moscou et le Vatican, Paris: France-Empire, Paris, 1979, pp. 147-48; Romano Amerio, Iota Unum, K.C., MO: Sarto House, 1996, pp. 75-76; Ricardo de la Cierva, Oscura rebelion en la Iglesia, Barcelona: Plaza & Janes, 1987, pp. 580-81.

    And why were the consequences of such a pact so far-reaching and important?

    Because in the 20th century a principal enemy of the Catholic Church was ƈσmmυɳιsm. As such, until Vatican II it had been condemned numerous times by the Magisterium. Moreover, in the early ’60s a new condemnation would have been quite damaging, since ƈσmmυɳιsm was passing through a serious crisis, both internally and externally. On one hand, it was losing credibility inside the USSR since the people were becoming increasingly discontent with the horrendous administrative results of 45 years of Communist demagogy. On the other hand, outside the USSR ƈσmmυɳιsm had not been able to persuade the workers and poor of free countries to take up its banner. In fact, up until that time it had never won a free ɛƖɛctıon. Therefore, the leaders of international ƈσmmυɳιsm decided that it was time to begin to change the appearances of the regime in order to retain the power they had and to experiment with new methods of conquest. So in the ‘60s President Nikita Khrushchev suddenly began to smile and talk about dialogue (2).

        2. Plinio Correa de Oliveira, Unperceived Ideological Transshipment and Dialogue, New York: Crusade for a Christian Civilization, 1982, pp. 8-15.

    This would have been a particularly inopportune moment for the Pope or the Council to issue a formal condemnation, which could have either seriously damaged or possibly even destroyed the Communist regime..

    A half secret act

    Speaking about the liberty at Vatican II to deal with diverse topics, Professor Romano Amerio revealed some previously unpublished facts.

        “The salient and half secret point that should be noted,” he stated, “is the restriction on the Council’s liberty to which John XXIII had agreed a few months earlier, in making an accord with the Orthodox Church by which the patriarchate of Moscow accepted the papal invitation to send observers to the Council, while the Pope for his part guaranteed the Council would refrain from condemning ƈσmmυɳιsm. The negotiations took place at Metz in August 1962, and all the details of time and place were given at a press conference by Mgr. Paul Joseph Schmitt, the Bishop of that Diocese [newspaper Le Lorrain, 2/9/63]. The negotiations ended in an agreement signed by metropolitan Nikodim for the Orthodox Church and Cardinal Tisserant, the Dean of the Sacred College of Cardinals, for the Holy See.    

        “News of the agreement was given in the France Nouvelle, the central bulletin of the French communist party in the edition of January 16-22, 1963 in these terms: ‘Because the world socialist system is showing its superiority in an uncontestable fashion, and is strong through the support of hundreds and hundreds of millions of men, the Church can no longer be content with a crude anti-ƈσmmυɳιsm. As part of its dialogue with the Russian Orthodox Church, it has even promised there will be no direct attack on the Communist system at the Council.’ On the Catholic side, the daily La Croix of February 15, 1963 gave notice of the agreement, concluding: “‘As a consequence of this conversation, Msgr. Nikodim agreed that someone should go to Moscow carrying an invitation, on condition that guarantees were given concerning the apolitical attitude of the Council.’

        “Moscow’s condition, namely that the Council should say nothing about ƈσmmυɳιsm, was not, therefore, a secret, but the isolated publication of it made no impression on general opinion, as it was not taken up by the press at large and circulated, either because of the apathetic and anaesthetized attitude to ƈσmmυɳιsm common in clerical circles or because the Pope took action to impose silence in the matter. Nonetheless, the agreement had a powerful, albeit silent, effect on the course of the Council when requests for a renewal of the condemnation of ƈσmmυɳιsm were rejected in order to observe this agreement to say nothing about it” (3).

        3. Romano Amerio, Iota Unum, pp. 65-66.

    Thus the Counci, which made statements on capitalism and colonialism, said nothing specific about the greatest evil of the age, ƈσmmυɳιsm.. While the Vatican Monsignors were smiling at the Russian Schismatic representatives, many Bishops were in prison and innumerable faithful were either persecuted or driven underground for their fidelity to the Holy Roman Catholic Church.

    The Kremlin-Vatican negotiations

    This important information about Vatican-Kremlin negotiations is confirmed in an article ‘The mystery of the Rome-Moscow pact’ published in the October 1989 issue of 30 Dias, which quotes statements made by the Bishop of Metz, Paul Joseph Schmitt. In a February 9, 1963 interview with the newspaper Republicain Lorrain, Mgr. Schmitt said:

        “It was in our region that the ‘secret’ meeting of Cardinal Tisserant with archbishop Nikodin occurred. The exact place was the residence of Fr. Lagarde, chaplain for the Little Sister of the Poor in Borny [on the outskirts of Metz]. Here for the first time the arrival of the prelates of the Russian Church was mentioned. After this meeting, the conditions for the presence of the Russian church’s observers were established by Cardinal Willebrands, an assistant of Cardinal Bea. Archbishop Nikodin agreed that an official invitation should be sent to Moscow, with the guarantee of the apolitical character of the Council” (4).

        4. 30 Dias, October 1988, pp. 55-56.

    The same source also transcribed a letter of Bishop Georges Roches regarding the Pact of Metz:

        “That accord was negotiated between the Kremlin and the Vatican at the highest level .… But I can assure you …. that the decision to invite Russian Orthodox observers to Vatican Council II was made personally by His Holiness John XXIII with the encouragement of Cardinal Montini, who was counselor to the Patriarch of Venice when he was Archbishop of Milan…. Cardinal Tisserant received formal orders to negotiate the accord and to make sure that it would be observed during the Council” (5).

        5. Ibid. p. 57

    In a book published some time after this, German theologian Fr. Bernard Häring - who was secretary-coordinator at the Council for the redaction of Gaudium et Spes - revealed the more profound reason for the ‘pigeon-holing’ of apetition that many conciliar Fathers signed asking Paul VI and the Council to condemn ƈσmmυɳιsm:

        “When around two dozen Bishops requested a solemn condemnation of ƈσmmυɳιsm,” stated Fr. Häring, “Msgr. Glorieux …. and I were blamed like scapegoats. I have no reason to deny that I did everything possible to avoid this condemnation, which rang out clearly like a political condemnation. I knew that John XXIII had promised Moscow authorities that the Council would not condemn ƈσmmυɳιsm in order to assure the participation of observers of the Russian Orthodox church” (6).

        6. 30 Dias October 1989, p. 55.

    Since the time of Stalin

    Facts from such indisputable sources permit no doubt about the effectiveness of the Pact of Metz. They also lend credibility to the information presented in the ‘novel’ entitled The Jesuits, by the late Fr. Malachi Martin, a quite well-informed ex-Jesuit who offers similar details about what happened before, during, and after the Pact of Metz.

    In Martin’s work, the Cardinal Secretary of State, under the pseudonym of Stato, tells about the understanding made by the Holy See with the Kremlin from 1942 to our days:

        “Stato reminded his Venerable Colleagues that he had been with the present Holy Father at His Holiness’s two meetings with the Soviet negotiator, Anatoly Adamshin, the most recent of which had been earlier this very year of 1981. His Holiness had given the Soviets a guarantee that no word or action, either by His Holiness or the Polish Hierarchy or Solidarity’s leaders, would violate the Moscow-Vatican Pact of 1962.

        “Stato did not need to explain to his listeners that in the late spring of 1962, a certain Eugène Cardinal Tisserant had been dispatched by Pope John XXIII to meet with a Russian prelate, one metropolitan Nikodim, representing the Soviet Politburo of Premier Nikita Khrushchev. Pope John ardently desired to know if the Soviet Government would allow two members of the Russian Orthodox church to attend the Second Vatican Council set to open the following October. The meeting between Tisserant and Nikodim took place in the official residence of Paul Joseph Schmitt, then the Bishop of Metz, France. There, Nikodim gave the Soviet answer. His government would agree, provided the Pope would guarantee two things: that his forthcoming Council would issue no condemnation of Soviet ƈσmmυɳιsm or of Marxism, and that the Holy See would make it a rule for the future to abstain from all such official condemnations.

        “Nikodin got his guarantees. Matters were orchestrated after that for Pope John by Jesuit Cardinal Augustine Bea until the final agreement was concluded in Moscow, and was carried out in Rome, in that Vatican Council as well as in the policies of the Holy See for nearly two decades since” (7).

        7. Malachi Martin, The Jesuits - The Society of Jesus and the Betrayal of the Roman Catholic Church, New York: Simon & Schuster, 1987; pp. 85-86.

    Further on, Malachi Martin “relates” that this Vatican-Moscow pact of 1962 was “merely a renewal of an earlier agreement between the Holy See and Moscow” on the occasion of conversations that took place in 1942 in the pontificate of Pius XII.

        “It was in that year,” he writes, “that Vatican Monsignor Giovanni Battista Montini, who himself later succeeded to the Papacy as Paul VI, talked directly with Joseph Stalin’s representative. Those talks were aimed at dimming Pius XII’s constant fulminations against the Soviet dictator and Marxism. Stato himself had been privy to those talks. He had also been privy to the conversations between Montini and the Italian Communist Party leader, Palmiro Togliatti, in 1944 .... “Stato offered to supply reports from the Allied Office of Strategic Services about the matter, beginning, as he recalled, with OSS Report JR-1022 of August 28, 1944” (8).

        8. Ibid., pp. 91-92.

    Such, then, are the official documents as well as the extra-official information about the Pact of Metz, which explains the incredible omission at the Ecumenical Second Vatican Council.

    Some facts that we need to consider

        1. Catholic doctrine has always emphatically condemned ƈσmmυɳιsm. It would be possible, should it be necessary, to publish a small book composed exclusively of anti-communist pontifical documents.

        2. It would have been natural, therefore, for Vatican Council II, which met in Rome from 1962 to 1965, to have confirmed these condemnations against the greatest enemy of the Church and Christian Civilization in the 20th century.

        3. In addition to this, 213 Cardinals, Archbishops, and Bishop solicited Paul VI to have the Council make such a condemnation. Later, 435 Conciliar Fathers repeated the same request. The two petitions were duly delivered within the time limits established by the Internal Guidelines of the Council. Nonetheless, inexplicably, neither petition ever came up for debate. The first was not taken into consideration. As for the second, after the Council had closed, it was alleged that it had been “lost” by Mgr. Achille Glorieux, secretary of the commission that would have been entrusted with the request.

        4. The Council closed without making any express censure of ƈσmmυɳιsm. Why was no censure made? The matter seemed wrapped in an enigmatic fog. Only later did these significant facts on the topic appear. "

    http://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/a007ht.htm


    I am still new at posting on the forum, so please pardon my ignorance at knowing just how to quote or give sources...
    Amen quippe dico vobis donec transeat caelum et terra iota unum aut unus apex non praeteribit a lege donec omnia fiant  (For amen I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass, one jot, or one tittle shall not pass of the law, till all be fulfilled. )

    Offline herbert

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    Vatican: Russia is the Most Religious Nation in Europe
    « Reply #12 on: August 09, 2011, 10:33:23 AM »
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  • Quote from: LordPhan

    Remember, ƈσmmυɳιsm, Socialism, Nazism all came from the lower classes.

    Most athiests are poor or at least live poorly based on how they live etc. Catholics who are poor will live much much better in the long run then any atheists.

    :)


    i thought ƈσmmυɳιsm, nazism, and socialism come from the uipper classes, as do all political ogranization. my understanding is that the poor tend to be cannon fodder for the designs of the powerful, and are used.

    Offline Catholic Samurai

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    Vatican: Russia is the Most Religious Nation in Europe
    « Reply #13 on: August 09, 2011, 12:21:48 PM »
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  • Quote from: herbert
    Quote from: LordPhan

    Remember, ƈσmmυɳιsm, Socialism, Nazism all came from the lower classes.

    Most athiests are poor or at least live poorly based on how they live etc. Catholics who are poor will live much much better in the long run then any atheists.

    :)


    i thought ƈσmmυɳιsm, nazism, and socialism come from the uipper classes, as do all political ogranization. my understanding is that the poor tend to be cannon fodder for the designs of the powerful, and are used.


    In the old order of Monarchist Christendom, the power structure was one that had to be infiltrated at the bottom because the top was restricted to positions obtainable only through inheritance (the Jҽωs etc. were not aristocrats). I think it say's something about your group's social standing if you have to meet secretly in the back of a tavern in the slums or docks.

    Only after the Republics emerge do you see error spawning at the top and trickling downward.
    "Louvada Siesa O' Sanctisimo Sacramento!"~warcry of the Amakusa/Shimabara rebels

    "We must risk something for God!"~Hernan Cortes


    TEJANO AND PROUD!

    Offline herbert

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    « Reply #14 on: August 09, 2011, 10:57:20 PM »
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  • Quote from: Catholic Samurai
    Quote from: herbert
    Quote from: LordPhan

    Remember, ƈσmmυɳιsm, Socialism, Nazism all came from the lower classes.

    Most athiests are poor or at least live poorly based on how they live etc. Catholics who are poor will live much much better in the long run then any atheists.

    :)


    i thought ƈσmmυɳιsm, nazism, and socialism come from the uipper classes, as do all political ogranization. my understanding is that the poor tend to be cannon fodder for the designs of the powerful, and are used.


    In the old order of Monarchist Christendom, the power structure was one that had to be infiltrated at the bottom because the top was restricted to positions obtainable only through inheritance (the Jҽωs etc. were not aristocrats). I think it say's something about your group's social standing if you have to meet secretly in the back of a tavern in the slums or docks.

    Only after the Republics emerge do you see error spawning at the top and trickling downward.


    exactly!

    ƈσmmυɳιsm, nazism, and socialism came alonmg after the old order was overthrown, so those came from the top.


     

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