Author Topic: Nephilim Controversy  (Read 15038 times)

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Offline IllyrianOZ

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Nephilim Controversy
« on: March 04, 2012, 05:52:50 PM »
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  • "Now giants were upon the earth in those days. For after the sons of God went in to the daughters of men, and they brought forth children, these are the mighty men of old, men of renown". Genesis 6:4

    Is there a DEFINITIVE Church Teaching on the Nephilim? It seems as though all ancient sources are more inclined towards the more sinister involvement of demons, whereas more modern theologians think it means Sethites. Here is a link of what the Early Church Fathers thought, as they were split on this topic; http://www.robibrad.demon.co.uk/Chapter5.htm

    Here is another great article by Barbara Aho; http://www.mt.net/~watcher/enoch5.html

    Sons of God were either;

    1) Sons of Seth, who intermarried with the Daughters of Cain (which somehow produced giants? And gave them almost supernatural abilities etc?) This is interpreted as to be a warning against mixed marriages... but then why would God ANNIHILATE the whole human race but 8 because of mixed marriages, something more sinister had to be happening.

    2) Sons of God refers to angel who fell to Earth, and in doing so adopted physical bodies and fornicated with the women. "And the angels who kept not their principality, but forsook their own habitation, he hath reserved under darkness in everlasting chains, unto the judgment of the great day. As Sodom and Gomorrha, and the neighbouring cities, in like manner, having given themselves to fornication, and going after other flesh, were made an example, suffering the punishment of eternal fire". Jude 1:6-7. The Book of Enoch, although not canonical, supports this, as does Flavius Josephus.

    3) A mix of premises 1 and 2. Sons of Seth became involved in the Satanic rituals of the Cainites, and thereby became perfectly possessed by demons which somehow corrupted their seed in some supernatural way? This notion is supported by the works of Ven. Anne Catherine Emmerich

    The Holy Bible says that "For in the resurrection they shall neither marry nor be married; but shall be as the angels of God in heaven" Matt 22:30.
    This only says that Angels IN HEAVEN do not marry. I also know that Thomistic Metaphysics dictates that angels cannot procreate. But this still leaves holes in the story.

    Also, in Numbers 13:33, when the Israelites approached the land of Canaan "There we saw certain monsters of the sons of Enac, of the giant kind: in comparison of whom, we seemed like locusts". Enac/Anak were a race of Nephilim. If the Deluge was GLOBAL (which I think it was), there were no descendants of Cain alive, so this cannot refer to mixed marriages theory again.

    There are COUNTLESS verses and commentaries that prove/disprove either of the 3 theories. My question is this; I am inclined to believe either 2 or 3. Am I falling into some kind of heresy?

    Ave Maria!

    Offline LaramieHirsch

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    Nephilim Controversy
    « Reply #1 on: March 04, 2012, 09:48:52 PM »
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  • Heresy?  I dunno.  I buy the legend, at least.  I have, ever since I was a kid.  In my younger days, I was a Bible-thumping Protestant, and so of course, everything in the Bible was literal and true.  

    It still is.  

    My old ways of considering the Bible have not gone away.  I still take Genesis quite literally, including Genesis 6:4.  

    Whatever the case, I'm sure I'll know what the truth is when I'm dead, anyway.
    .........................

    Before some audiences not even the possession of the exactest knowledge will make it easy for what we say to produce conviction. For argument based on knowledge implies instruction, and there are people whom one cannot instruct.  - Aristotle


    Offline Graham

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    Nephilim Controversy
    « Reply #2 on: March 04, 2012, 10:29:00 PM »
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  • I think #2 makes the most sense on the face of it. I've also read an interpretation where the the "fornication" with the "daughters of men" is taken in a figurative sense to mean that immaterial beings took on corporeal form. In this case "fornication with the daughters of men" simply means that these superlative beings mixed with the four elements and acquired corporeal form.  

    Offline MyrnaM

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    Nephilim Controversy
    « Reply #3 on: March 04, 2012, 10:51:51 PM »
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  • Quote
    These angels not only failed to keep their original dominion and authority, but they "left their own habitation." Habitation is a significant word: it means "dwelling place" or "heaven." And the addition of the Greek word "idion" ("their own") means that they left their own private, personal, unique possession. (4) Heaven was the private, personal residence of the angels. It was not made for man but for the angels. This is why the ultimate destination of the saints will not be Heaven but the new and perfect Earth which God will create (Revelation 21:1-3). Heaven is reserved for the angels, but as for the beings referred to in Jude 6-7, they abandoned it.




    The above quote was taken from the link of the article in the OP here, it reminded me of something the nuns taught us, that the world will go on till all the places were filled from the fallen angels.  In other words every angel that fell from heaven a human would take their place.  

    I wonder has anyone else ever heard this before.  
    Galatians 1; 8
    But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach a gospel to you besides that which we have preached to you, let him be anathema.

    Offline Iuvenalis

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    « Reply #4 on: March 04, 2012, 11:21:25 PM »
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  • I was under the impression these men were literally quite large in stature I.e. actual giants

    They were also savage and lustful, just generally having greater degrees of humanness on every scale, physicality, size, emotion, but also ambition etc.

    They could either do great good or great evil, more so than humans since then up to now.


    Offline IllyrianOZ

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    Nephilim Controversy
    « Reply #5 on: March 05, 2012, 02:48:39 AM »
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  • Quote from: MyrnaM
    The above quote was taken from the link of the article in the OP here, it reminded me of something the nuns taught us, that the world will go on till all the places were filled from the fallen angels.  In other words every angel that fell from heaven a human would take their place.  

    I wonder has anyone else ever heard this before.  


    Yes, I believe Saint Augustine of Hippo proposes this theory, which has made its way 'un-officially' into Catholic Tradition.

    e.g. 10 billion angels fell from Heaven, so when those 10 billion 'seats' are filled, the world will end.




    My point is, if the Sethites had become 'corrupted' by way of sin, why did God ANNIHILATE the ENTIRE HUMAN RACE but 8 souls.. it seems a bit extreme.. but if there is a more sinister cause, then this makes perfect sense! And if it was just because of the apostacy etc, why hasn't God annihilated us (mankind) 1000 times over since then?

    "And God said: My spirit shall not remain in man for ever, because he is flesh, and his days shall be a hundred and twenty years. [...] And God seeing that the wickedness of men was great on the earth, and that all the thought of their heart was bent upon evil at all times. [...] And God seeing that the wickedness of men was great on the earth, and that all the thought of their heart was bent upon evil at all times" Genesis 6

    They are obviously man. I've read I think in Origen, that he presumes that the demons, whence coming into our 'sphere', took on physical bodies. Whether that be possession of anothers, or the manifestation of their own is what is the dilemma..

    Also, Genesis says that God looked with favour unto Noah because "He was perfect in his generations"... perfect from what? The Demoniac, is what I'm guessing..

    My point is thus, if the Early Church Fathers / Jewish Scholars (etc) are 50/50 on this, and we are to make up our own minds because it is undefined, then I choose premise 2 because it makes most sense.. taking into account the passage of Jude, II Peter etc, and also referrences to the Book of Enoch in the  Early Church Fathers / New Testament. I just wanted to make sure I wasn't a heretic for believin such theories..

    Ave Maria

    Offline Cristian

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    Nephilim Controversy
    « Reply #6 on: March 05, 2012, 06:48:52 AM »
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  • Quote from: Koleci
    "Now giants were upon the earth in those days. For after the sons of God went in to the daughters of men, and they brought forth children, these are the mighty men of old, men of renown". Genesis 6:4

    Is there a DEFINITIVE Church Teaching on the Nephilim? It seems as though all ancient sources are more inclined towards the more sinister involvement of demons, whereas more modern theologians think it means Sethites. Here is a link of what the Early Church Fathers thought, as they were split on this topic; http://www.robibrad.demon.co.uk/Chapter5.htm

    Here is another great article by Barbara Aho; http://www.mt.net/~watcher/enoch5.html

    Sons of God were either;

    1) Sons of Seth, who intermarried with the Daughters of Cain (which somehow produced giants? And gave them almost supernatural abilities etc?) This is interpreted as to be a warning against mixed marriages... but then why would God ANNIHILATE the whole human race but 8 because of mixed marriages, something more sinister had to be happening.

    2) Sons of God refers to angel who fell to Earth, and in doing so adopted physical bodies and fornicated with the women. "And the angels who kept not their principality, but forsook their own habitation, he hath reserved under darkness in everlasting chains, unto the judgment of the great day. As Sodom and Gomorrha, and the neighbouring cities, in like manner, having given themselves to fornication, and going after other flesh, were made an example, suffering the punishment of eternal fire". Jude 1:6-7. The Book of Enoch, although not canonical, supports this, as does Flavius Josephus.

    3) A mix of premises 1 and 2. Sons of Seth became involved in the Satanic rituals of the Cainites, and thereby became perfectly possessed by demons which somehow corrupted their seed in some supernatural way? This notion is supported by the works of Ven. Anne Catherine Emmerich

    The Holy Bible says that "For in the resurrection they shall neither marry nor be married; but shall be as the angels of God in heaven" Matt 22:30.
    This only says that Angels IN HEAVEN do not marry. I also know that Thomistic Metaphysics dictates that angels cannot procreate. But this still leaves holes in the story.

    Also, in Numbers 13:33, when the Israelites approached the land of Canaan "There we saw certain monsters of the sons of Enac, of the giant kind: in comparison of whom, we seemed like locusts". Enac/Anak were a race of Nephilim. If the Deluge was GLOBAL (which I think it was), there were no descendants of Cain alive, so this cannot refer to mixed marriages theory again.

    There are COUNTLESS verses and commentaries that prove/disprove either of the 3 theories. My question is this; I am inclined to believe either 2 or 3. Am I falling into some kind of heresy?

    Ave Maria!



    Hi,

    There is third possibility, and, I believe, a much simple one.
    The sons of God were just men who simply cannot get married (because of a vow), so the sense would be "the world was so corrupted that even the sons of God were great sinners" and that is why you have the chastisement.

    I believe St. Thomas is right when he teaches demons cannot procreate and option number 1 doesn´t explain the severity of the chastisement as you pointed out.

    I read an article defending this theory in the Spanish review "estudios bíblicos" published in the forties.
     
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    "Lacrimarum donum signum est praedestinationis"

    Leon Bloy

    Offline Catholic Samurai

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    Nephilim Controversy
    « Reply #7 on: March 05, 2012, 01:53:41 PM »
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  • There is really nothing mysterious about the "corruption of flesh". All men and women living at that time were wicked enough to merit the destruction of themselves and the world as it was at that time.

    Anyone who reads that chapter and speculates that it was because of some genetic contamination (because the "sons of God", blah blah blah...) that required a mass culling of the human race is infected by Naturalism and Modernism.


    Even if they materialize temporarily, angels do not have the ability to generate seed and reproduce, because the power of creation does not belong to them.

    I don't think they'd even bleed if you had the opportunity to cut them open for that matter. Last I checked, nobody has a demon's corpse, and I don't expect one to turn up anytime soon.


    There is nothing unnatural or demonic about men of gigantic stature. Our ancestors were giants, and it's a simple as that. There is genetic evidence for that anyway.



    "Louvada Siesa O' Sanctisimo Sacramento!"~warcry of the Amakusa/Shimabara rebels

    "We must risk something for God!"~Hernan Cortes


    TEJANO AND PROUD!


    Offline Catholic Samurai

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    « Reply #8 on: March 05, 2012, 02:10:06 PM »
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  • Quote from: LaramieHirsch
    Heresy?  I dunno.  I buy the legend, at least.  I have, ever since I was a kid.  In my younger days, I was a Bible-thumping Protestant, and so of course, everything in the Bible was literal and true.  

    It still is.  

    My old ways of considering the Bible have not gone away.  I still take Genesis quite literally, including Genesis 6:4.  




    I'll give you several verses in the same chapter proceeding that one that you can interpret just as literally and erroneously...




    5.And God seeing that the wickedness of men was great on the earth, and that all the thought of their heart was bent upon evil at all times,

    6. It repented Him that He had made man on the earth. And being touched inwardly with sorrow of heart,

    7. He said: I will destroy man, whom I have created, from the face of the earth, from man even to beasts from the creeping thing even to the fowls of the air, for it repenteth Me that I have made them.




    We know God can have no regret for anything He does, as if He were capable of making mistakes etc., but a person could easily come to believe that by interpreting these verses literally.

    "Louvada Siesa O' Sanctisimo Sacramento!"~warcry of the Amakusa/Shimabara rebels

    "We must risk something for God!"~Hernan Cortes


    TEJANO AND PROUD!

    Offline Sigismund

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    Nephilim Controversy
    « Reply #9 on: March 05, 2012, 05:12:37 PM »
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  • I am not sure it rises to the level of a controversy.  Are lots of people actually concerned or arguing about it?
    Stir up within Thy Church, we beseech Thee, O Lord, the Spirit with which blessed Josaphat, Thy Martyr and Bishop, was filled, when he laid down his life for his sheep: so that, through his intercession, we too may be moved and strengthen by the same Spir

    Offline Diego

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    Nephilim Controversy
    « Reply #10 on: March 05, 2012, 05:40:23 PM »
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  • Quote from: Catholic Samurai
    There is nothing unnatural or demonic about men of gigantic stature. Our ancestors were giants, and it's a simple as that. There is genetic evidence for that anyway.


    I would be interested to learn of such evidence.


    Offline Catholic Samurai

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    « Reply #11 on: March 06, 2012, 11:39:42 AM »
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  • Quote from: Diego
    Quote from: Catholic Samurai
    There is nothing unnatural or demonic about men of gigantic stature. Our ancestors were giants, and it's a simple as that. There is genetic evidence for that anyway.


    I would be interested to learn of such evidence.


    Here you go.
    http://www.creationtoday.org/category/type/video/creation-seminars/

    Sorry I'm making you dig for it, but I'm short of time to do it for you. It might be in the Garden of Eden vid, but I'm not sure.
    "Louvada Siesa O' Sanctisimo Sacramento!"~warcry of the Amakusa/Shimabara rebels

    "We must risk something for God!"~Hernan Cortes


    TEJANO AND PROUD!

    Offline Diego

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    « Reply #12 on: March 06, 2012, 12:56:30 PM »
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  • Thank you. I only needed a pointer, not outright spoon-feeding.


    Offline IllyrianOZ

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    Nephilim Controversy
    « Reply #13 on: March 06, 2012, 04:31:40 PM »
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  • This is all so confusing, because Philosophers/Theologians will dismiss the question saying "Angels are sexless, they cannot procreate etc etc", my point is, even St Thomas Aquinas was wrong sometimes, he didn't believe in the Immaculate Conception of The Blessed Virgin Mary.


    I cant wait till the General Judgement, then we'll all see the real history of the world lol

    Offline IllyrianOZ

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    Nephilim Controversy
    « Reply #14 on: March 06, 2012, 04:40:16 PM »
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  • There's even reference in Post Flood events in the Bible (e.g. Numbers, Deuteronomy, Kings) that the Giants were on the Earth then too.

    I've read texts that say the fallen angels 're-corruped' (in whichever way that was) mankind (specifically the Canaanites), from where we have the Anakim, Rephaim etc (Numbers 13:33). That is why God apparently commanded that the Israelites exterminate the Canaanites and to a lesser extent the Philistines.

     

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