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Offline SeanJohnson

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Eleison Comments:
« on: December 14, 2013, 10:01:38 AM »
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  • Number CCCXXXV (335)
        
    14 December 2013
    FATHER RIOULT II
    Let me quote Fr Olivier Rioult from his October 6 interview in Paris (cf. EC 333) on another question, much disputed within today's Catholic Resistance – the question of organization. Fr Rioult was asked whether he thought it was possible to set up a new worldwide organization, or would he rather opt for some kind of free association such as has grouped together sedevacantists for a number of years ? Here is his answer, this time in his very own words:--

    "In the months to come I may be setting up a broad kind of association based on friendship with other Catholics in the Resistance, whether or not they are sedevacantists, sedevacantism being for me an opinion. But the situation is not ripe here and now for such an association. In any case whatever is Catholic is ours. So any Catholics ready to operate as Catholics and to resist the modernism reigning supreme within the Church, we will work with. Therefore yes, to a broad kind of association sharing the same common good: the Faith and worship of the Catholic Church, the defence of the Faith. Having this same common good can create friendship amongst all our groups.

    "I think that the closer we come to the end times, the more Catholics will have to be anarchists, not in principle but in practice. By which I mean, they will have to be against all the powers that be, because these will all have been neutralized, undermined or subverted, operating contrary to the natural order. Hence, in practice, Catholics will have to stand up to them all, in Church or State... because they will all be twisted out of shape, under Masonic influence... serving in any case the Prince of this world. So I think it will be very difficult to create any more worldwide structures. The French Dominican priest, Fr Roger Calmel, had a clear view of things. As far back as 1970 he said that the natural leaders in any given place will have to make their ministry shine out in that one place, being tied by bonds of no more than friendship to the leaders in any other place.

    "In 1970, in the French periodical "Itineraires" (#149), he wrote: "The fight for the Faith will have to be fought by little groups refusing to enter into any structured or universal organizations. Within these various groups, such as a small school, a humble convent, a prayer group, a gathering of Christian families or the organizing of a pilgrimage, the authority is real and accepted by everybody... All that is needed is for each Catholic to reach as far as his grace and authority will carry him in the little sphere which is certainly his to lead, and which he will take charge of without having over him any grand administrative structures to make him do so'. "

    If Fr. Calmel wrote that in 1970 for the circumstances of 1970, one might say either that he was seeing too far ahead, or that Archbishop Lefebvre proved by organizing the Society of St Pius X what could still be done in 1970. But I do think that Fr. Calmel was right in the long run. One might say, watching what happened to the Society last year, that it was bound to run into the sand. Archbishop Lefebvre, like Pope St Pius X, conducted a marvelous rearguard action, but one notes how much less the Archbishop could achieve, coming70 years later than the Pope, and now we are 40 years on from the Archbishop. In a world marching to its ruin the realization of Fr. Calmel’s prophecy could not be indefinitely delayed.

    Dear readers, if we wish to stay with Our Lord, we have no choice but to gird our loins. In my opinion, Fr Calmel and Fr Rioult are right. Mother of God, Help of Christians, help !

    Kyrie eleison.

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    Romans 5:20 "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    -I retract any and all statements I have made that are incongruent with the True Faith, and apologize for ever having made them-

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Eleison Comments:
    « Reply #1 on: December 14, 2013, 10:08:37 AM »
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  • If I have observed battle fatigue within the SSPX,  I observe it in this Eleison Comments as well.

    It explains the refusal to found a worldwide organization like something akin to Archbishop Lefebvre's SSPX.

    The argument that modern man is no longer disposed to accept authority, and therefore such enterprises are no longer practical or effective is erroneous.

    To refuse to build one because of some future persecution is, in my opinion, an insufficient reason.

    If we are in constant (apparent) "rebellion," it is because our leaders are showing signs of battle fatigue and trying to negotiate a truce with the enemy.

    The fact that ABL founded the SSPX disproves utterly the theory of Fr. Calvert.

    We are looking for leaders to whom we can be secure in rendering our obedience, and would happily give it.

    Additionally, I find within this letter the seeds of tradcumenism, which can also only rise as a consequence of battle fatigue, as it is a blatant compromise of principle to set aside dogmatic and doctrinal differences for the sake of opposing modernism.

    How can a tradcumenist oppose ecumenism?

    And how will the resistance escape the same fate as the Protestant sects with no centralized authority, and avoid splintering into ever smaller cells?

    This strategy seems rather to provoke the onset of the end times, rather than stave it off.
    Romans 5:20 "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    -I retract any and all statements I have made that are incongruent with the True Faith, and apologize for ever having made them-


    Offline bowler

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    Eleison Comments:
    « Reply #2 on: December 14, 2013, 10:53:42 AM »
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  • Quote from: SeanJohnson
    This strategy seems rather to provoke the onset of the end times, rather than stave it off.


    If this apostasy is not the end times, then I don't know what is.  If Paul VI, JPII, B16 and Francis are not manifest heretics, then I don't want to be around when one shows up.

    This reminds me of the story of Big John:


    Quote
    A bar owner in the Old West has just hired a timid new bartender. The owner of the establishment is giving his new hire some instructions on running the place. He tells the timid man, "If you ever hear that Big John is coming to town, drop everything and run for the hills!

     A few weeks pass uneventfully. One afternoon, a local cowhand comes running through town yelling, "Big John is a comin, run for your lives!"

     When the bartender ties to exit the saloon to start running, he's knocked to the ground by several townspeople scurrying out of town. As he's picking himself up, he sees a mountain of a  man burst through the bar doors riding a Buffalo and using a Rattlesnake for a whip. The man jumps off the Buffalo, and crashes his giant fist through the bar, and says whiskey!

     Then bartender nervously grabs a fresh bottle on puts it on the counter, and the man break the bottle neck with his teeth and swigged it all down in one shot. As the poor timid bartender cowers behind the bar, the big man gets up to leave. "Do you want another whiskey sir?" the bartender calls out.

     Ain't got time, Big John is a-comin



     

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Eleison Comments:
    « Reply #3 on: December 14, 2013, 11:14:40 AM »
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  • Quote from: bowler
    Quote from: SeanJohnson
    This strategy seems rather to provoke the onset of the end times, rather than stave it off.


    If this apostasy is not the end times, then I don't know what is.  If Paul VI, JPII, B16 and Francis are not manifest heretics, then I don't want to be around when one shows up.

    This reminds me of the story of Big John:


    Quote
    A bar owner in the Old West has just hired a timid new bartender. The owner of the establishment is giving his new hire some instructions on running the place. He tells the timid man, "If you ever hear that Big John is coming to town, drop everything and run for the hills!

     A few weeks pass uneventfully. One afternoon, a local cowhand comes running through town yelling, "Big John is a comin, run for your lives!"

     When the bartender ties to exit the saloon to start running, he's knocked to the ground by several townspeople scurrying out of town. As he's picking himself up, he sees a mountain of a  man burst through the bar doors riding a Buffalo and using a Rattlesnake for a whip. The man jumps off the Buffalo, and crashes his giant fist through the bar, and says whiskey!

     Then bartender nervously grabs a fresh bottle on puts it on the counter, and the man break the bottle neck with his teeth and swigged it all down in one shot. As the poor timid bartender cowers behind the bar, the big man gets up to leave. "Do you want another whiskey sir?" the bartender calls out.

     Ain't got time, Big John is a-comin



     [/quot



    That's pretty good!
    Romans 5:20 "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    -I retract any and all statements I have made that are incongruent with the True Faith, and apologize for ever having made them-

    Offline wallflower

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    Eleison Comments:
    « Reply #4 on: December 14, 2013, 11:23:21 AM »
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  • Quote from: SeanJohnson


    "In 1970, in the French periodical "Itineraires" (#149), he wrote: "The fight for the Faith will have to be fought by little groups refusing to enter into any structured or universal organizations. Within these various groups, such as a small school, a humble convent, a prayer group, a gathering of Christian families or the organizing of a pilgrimage, the authority is real and accepted by everybody... All that is needed is for each Catholic to reach as far as his grace and authority will carry him in the little sphere which is certainly his to lead, and which he will take charge of without having over him any grand administrative structures to make him do so'. "


    This sounds about right to me. It means we go back to the very basic principle of being responsible for our own families first and foremost. Families are the building blocks of society and as society crumbles we have to start again at square one. We have to scramble to save or rebuild our own building blocks before a new society can begin to take shape. It seems a bit paradoxical that individualism has destroyed society but its rebuilding will depend on individuals, but the difference is that we do not rely on our own powers but beg for miracles of grace to help us.

    I think we still have not hit rock bottom; we are still in the phase where our blocks are coming unglued and cracking and falling apart, so visible "proof" that society will be rebuilt is nowhere around. Hope is not a warm feeling but an act of the will. We must be calm and realize this is part of the process. Now is the time to save what we can by "reaching as far as our grace and authority will carry us in our little spheres" and tomorrow will be the day to bring all that is saved together for rebuilding. But it will only happen one step at a time and no sooner.

    I believe that is true for all of society, trads are no exception, we're falling and crumbling too. No large organization will make it, we are pretty much back to clan days. Each family or small group of families has to strive to provide for themselves. This is not ideal but until God deems this particular punishment over, it's all we have to work with.



    Offline John Grace

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    Eleison Comments:
    « Reply #5 on: December 14, 2013, 11:24:48 AM »
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  • Quote from: SeanJohnson
    If I have observed battle fatigue within the SSPX,  I observe it in this Eleison Comments as well.

    It explains the refusal to found a worldwide organization like something akin to Archbishop Lefebvre's SSPX.

    The argument that modern man is no longer disposed to accept authority, and therefore such enterprises are no longer practical or effective is erroneous.

    To refuse to build one because of some future persecution is, in my opinion, an insufficient reason.

    If we are in constant (apparent) "rebellion," it is because our leaders are showing signs of battle fatigue and trying to negotiate a truce with the enemy.

    The fact that ABL founded the SSPX disproves utterly the theory of Fr. Calvert.

    We are looking for leaders to whom we can be secure in rendering our obedience, and would happily give it.

    Additionally, I find within this letter the seeds of tradcumenism, which can also only rise as a consequence of battle fatigue, as it is a blatant compromise of principle to set aside dogmatic and doctrinal differences for the sake of opposing modernism.

    How can a tradcumenist oppose ecumenism?

    And how will the resistance escape the same fate as the Protestant sects with no centralized authority, and avoid splintering into ever smaller cells?

    This strategy seems rather to provoke the onset of the end times, rather than stave it off.


    This is an excellent Eleison Comments. Regarding tradcumenism, it has existed in Ireland. SSPX youth regularly steward at the Youth Defence pro-life rallies. Differences are put aside for pro-life. An SSPX priest stated recently that YD were never ideal,never understood the battle but could be supported.

    The early leadership of Youth Defence met Pope John Paul II in 1992. No Trad believes for a minute YD will 'diss' JPII but can support their events.

    Whilst in recent years YD have reached out to new evangelisation types, NewChurch, without Trad support from the early days, the group would be long gone.

    YD have stated regularly "we must work together and pray together". This means with protestants.YD works closely with the Charismatic Episcopal Church. 'Fr' Terry Gensmer is a big supporter. He is always addressed as 'Father' Terry so I had to assume YD regard his ordination as valid.

    Bishop Williamson is not suffering from battle fatigue. Many paid no heed to him over the years and we see the consequences of it now.

    Offline John Grace

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    Eleison Comments:
    « Reply #6 on: December 14, 2013, 11:50:37 AM »
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  • I have every confidence in Bishop Williamson. I do not believe for a minute he has battle fatigue. He is busy continuing the mission of Archbishop Lefebvre.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Eleison Comments:
    « Reply #7 on: December 14, 2013, 03:19:22 PM »
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  • Quote from: John Grace
    I have every confidence in Bishop Williamson. I do not believe for a minute he has battle fatigue. He is busy continuing the mission of Archbishop Lefebvre.


    It should be blatantly obvious that the birth of the SSPX perfectly rebuts Fr Calvet's theory in 1970, as it does Bishop Williamson's in 2013.

    Only battle fatigue could regurgitate it 43 years later, and add tradcumenism into the mix as well.
    Romans 5:20 "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    -I retract any and all statements I have made that are incongruent with the True Faith, and apologize for ever having made them-


    Offline John Grace

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    Eleison Comments:
    « Reply #8 on: December 14, 2013, 03:37:58 PM »
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  • Quote
    Only battle fatigue


    Those who appear "battle fatigued" were never really fighters to begin with. Bishop Tissier was never a fighter. When Fr Chazal took a necessary stand, Bishop Tissier was a disgrace.  Blind and false obedience. Bishop de Galarreta is not a fighter.

    In the end only Bishop Williamson remained true to the Archbishop and fights on.

    Same with laity. A very mixed bag. A minority have any fight in them. Majority will go with Bishop Fellay regardless. Many were never on the battlefield so could never be fatigued.

    Fr Pfluger was mocking Bishop Williamson in the letter when the Bishop mentioned war. Yet many Irish SSPX laity greeted Fr Pfluger warmly despite everything.Strange.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Eleison Comments:
    « Reply #9 on: December 14, 2013, 03:45:48 PM »
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  • Quote from: John Grace
    Quote
    Only battle fatigue


    Those who appear "battle fatigued" were never really fighters to begin with. Bishop Tissier was never a fighter. When Fr Chazal took a necessary stand, Bishop Tissier was a disgrace.  Blind and false obedience. Bishop de Galarreta is not a fighter.

    In the end only Bishop Williamson remained true to the Archbishop and fights on.

    Same with laity. A very mixed bag. A minority have any fight in them. Majority will go with Bishop Fellay regardless.


    John-

    I don't disagree with you.

    Yes, Bishop Williamson is still fighting.

    But apparently, he is now willing to enlist the help of allies which have been traditional enemies.

    Besides being an obvious regression into ecumenism/tradcumenism, how do you account for this development, but for the suspicion that it is an attempt to suppress the obvious splintering which will ravage the resistance if there is centralized authority?

    In other words, rather than continue to fight against the sedes, and Rome, and Menzingen, and whoever else, let's just make friends of everyone opposed to modernism.

    Not good.
    Romans 5:20 "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    -I retract any and all statements I have made that are incongruent with the True Faith, and apologize for ever having made them-

    Offline Ecclesia Militans

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    Eleison Comments:
    « Reply #10 on: December 14, 2013, 03:50:37 PM »
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  • Quote from: SeanJohnson
    In other words, rather than continue to fight against the sedes, and Rome, and Menzingen, and whoever else, let's just make friends of everyone opposed to modernism.

    I think we have to keep the Archbishop's line and fight Sedevacantism as well.


    Offline John Grace

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    Eleison Comments:
    « Reply #11 on: December 14, 2013, 03:56:47 PM »
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  • Quote from: SeanJohnson
    Quote from: John Grace
    Quote
    Only battle fatigue


    Those who appear "battle fatigued" were never really fighters to begin with. Bishop Tissier was never a fighter. When Fr Chazal took a necessary stand, Bishop Tissier was a disgrace.  Blind and false obedience. Bishop de Galarreta is not a fighter.

    In the end only Bishop Williamson remained true to the Archbishop and fights on.

    Same with laity. A very mixed bag. A minority have any fight in them. Majority will go with Bishop Fellay regardless.


    John-

    I don't disagree with you.

    Yes, Bishop Williamson is still fighting.

    But apparently, he is now willing to enlist the help of allies which have been traditional enemies.

    Besides being an obvious regression into ecumenism/tradcumenism, how do you account for this development, but for the suspicion that it is an attempt to suppress the obvious splintering which will ravage the resistance if there is centralized authority?

    In other words, rather than continue to fight against the sedes, and Rome, and Menzingen, and whoever else, let's just make friends of everyone opposed to modernism.

    Not good.


    In ways it is a dialogue of the deaf. I favour a decentralised resistance structure. For example should a man consider priesthood, my advice would be to become an apprentice with a local resistance priest as opposed to the classical seminary. It shouldn't mean not to support the new seminary in Kentucky.

    What I mean by a dialogue of the deaf is whilst many Trads in Ireland support Youth Defence, this group doesn't resist Modernism. Their participation at a World Youth Day highlights this.

    As things stand many in Youth Defence dip in and out of both Indult and SSPX.

    If YD as a pro-life group were to embrace the resistance they would lose about 80% of support from NewChurch types.

    The NewChurch Catholics need to be educated.

    Offline John Grace

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    Eleison Comments:
    « Reply #12 on: December 14, 2013, 04:06:04 PM »
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  • Quote
    "The fight for the Faith will have to be fought by little groups refusing to enter into any structured or universal organizations. Within these various groups, such as a small school, a humble convent, a prayer group, a gathering of Christian families or the organizing of a pilgrimage,


    This is good but an obvious problem is the vast majority of groups, schools, prayer groups are promoting modernism and error.

    Sometimes people say join them and "keep them Catholic". A few here and there in these groups,schools, etc  are keeping the faith.

    Whilst soulguard has dismissed me as an idiot, I am aware of some resistance in certain places. People are being 'worked on'. It's necessary to 'tradify'


    Offline untitled

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    Eleison Comments:
    « Reply #13 on: December 14, 2013, 05:19:10 PM »
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  • I totally agree with Sean Johnson.

    Offline parentsfortruth

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    Eleison Comments:
    « Reply #14 on: December 14, 2013, 05:42:36 PM »
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  • I must ask then: "Has your opinion of sede vacant changed since Franny the Fraud took over? Has the theory become more palpable for you?"

    I agree with the Bishop that it is an opinion, which even Archbishop Lefevbre said that one could hold.

    And I do not think he has "battle fatigue." Not in the slightest.
    Matthew 5:37

    But let your speech be yea, yea: no, no: and that which is over and above these, is of evil.

    My Avatar is Fr. Hector Bolduc. He was a faithful parish priest in De Pere, WI,


     

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