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Offline Centroamerica

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The Resistance and the end of the Crisis in the Church
« on: December 10, 2013, 08:48:59 AM »
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  • Dear Fr Kramer,

    In the course of this year you have been a great help to our Resistance against the liberalisation of the world of Tradition, especially with your conference in London a few months ago about the new mass.

    Alas I cannot follow you when you publicly declare that Francis is no pope while Benedict is instead. Yet I must thank you from the onset because you are dealing a severe blow to sedevacantism in the process.

    It confirms that sedevacantism is in fact a logical Pandora s box, leading more to confusion than order, since, yet again, another theory emerges... one among so many species.

    Just recently I bumped into another sedevacantist who told me that mgr Guerard des Lauriers is a traitor. But that Bishop is a founding father of the movement. Among the non conclavist sedevacantists, it is getting harder and harder just to know what the different schools think. Such total talmudization I refuse to find myself embarked on.

    Archbishop Lefebvre was keen to say that the theory has some serious reasons, but it leads to no certain conclusions. It looks very clear at the start, yet ends in great confusion, leading to a dangerous fragmentation of the Remnant of the Faith. Theologians are split into those who don t even consider the case ant those who do... and among those who do, there again, their sentences are split.
    We should be content with the principle of Nullam Partem with heretics, not denying the existence of heresies when they appear in Rome, unlike the XSPX, who threw us overboard on account of us sticking to that principle.

    But the Archbishop always refused to tread beyond this point, the overall sterility of the sedevacantist movement proved him right. Just one look at the city of Cincinatti is enough to see: the turf wars, the mutual excommunications, the endless doctrinal hair splitting, the comparatives between the different lines of bishops and the quarrels around the validity of this or that line... all of it like the vain genealogies denounced by St paul.

    I am aware that you believe that somebody is still on the See of Peter, but that reminds me too much of the theory of the two Paul VI, or the theory that cardinal Siri is the Pope (and the theory went on with a secret, Siri appointed successor of Peter). Conclavist sedevacantism is back.

    Knowing you as a Fatima priest, especially as somebody so aware of the wickedness of ex pope ex card. Ratzinger, in your book "The Devil s Final Battle", in which Ratzinger plays second fiddle only to the Devil, I don t see why you make such a difference betwixt Francis and Benedict.

    That Bishop Fellay mourns the good old days of pope Benedict in his recent DICI interview is no surprise... his liberal mind wanted to have a deal with the darling of the conservatives.... and such a deal would be much harder with the Francis administration (even if he still calls them the Church, and he denies that Francis is a theoretical modernist, and leaves many doors open, maintains the AFD...).

    I don t see a difference of degree between these two modernists, between these two heretics. Only their approach differs. Benedict would do things differently, but the Revolution must move on; Francis has a "charism" that he lacks. Benedict recognizes and encourages that so called charism, for destruction. This recent attack on the authority of Peter, which is going to turn the office of the Papacy into a presidential job, was concocted, not by Francis, but by Benedict. Some of his unknown speeches refer to the redefining of the "Petrine ministry". Francis just executes the sentence of his predecessor.

    I am very sure that you studied both of them sufficiently to see that their principles of theology are the same. They are two faces of a same coin, just like the parties in our modern masonic democracies. Francis is going to wreck further the faith in the official church, but there is no questionning that Benedict proved extremely dangerous to us, Traditionnal Catholics. I am glad he is gone, with Francis there is clarity to some extent.

    So I hope and pray you will give us some relief on this issue. As you say, we are in the final moments. It is much better to keep our heads up to the Great Sign in the Heavens (Apoc XII), than to lower our spirit into some new confusion. Our poor little sheep are shepherdess enough as they are.

    With all my best compliments on this wonderful feast of the Immaculate Conception,
    Francois Chazal+


    Read more: http://cor-mariae./thread/870#ixzz2n0Y7xU36

    The position of the resistance regarding the pope seems to be that they believe this crisis will end when the pope converts and that to me seems very logical. I would not want to think that that is the only possible way that this crisis will end. That is the optimistic view hoping for an end to the crisis, but let us suppose the pope converted today. Where would he go? If he stated in the Vatican the Jews and Freemasons there would surely kill him or force him to resign if he was not willing to die a martyr. And the moment we completely exclude the pissibility that this could have occurred to some degree or another we become exactly like the sedevacantists who claim to have the inner knowledge of the post-conciliar pope's hearts in the matter; we would be asserting things which we cannot know for sure. The position that the pope converts and the crisis ends is a very optimistic outlook and a possibility, but if it happens he better leave Rome and pack his suitcases and get out of there, maybe go to Econe at the least. I am interested in how the resistance will act of say Pope Francis declares something obvious and outright against Catholic dogma like participation in the Eucharist of non-Catholics and those in the state of mortal sin. Sedevacantism is being almost rejected as if it was heresy when we should actually be considering that it may be the conclusion of this crisis. To deny that as a possibility I believe is dangerous.
    We conclude logically that religion can give an efficacious and truly realistic answer to the great modern problems only if it is a religion that is profoundly lived, not simply a superficial and cheap religion made up of some vocal prayers and some ceremonies...

    Offline John Grace

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    The Resistance and the end of the Crisis in the Church
    « Reply #1 on: December 10, 2013, 09:11:58 AM »
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  • Sedevacantism is quite a red herring. The SSPX were openly sede in the early days and then Fr Fellay was influential in turing the Archbishop against priests.

    Fr Kramer offered Mass in the home of the late Deirdre Manifold. As I said in another thread, I regarded Fr Kramer as being independent of the resistance.

    Same applies to the likes of Bishop Sanborn.

    I do not dispute the Sedeprivationist Mass centre in Ireland is resisting but is separate to the resistance.

    We should follow the resistance of Bishop Williamson.


    Offline Centroamerica

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    The Resistance and the end of the Crisis in the Church
    « Reply #2 on: December 10, 2013, 09:51:36 AM »
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  • Quote from: John Grace


    We should follow the resistance of Bishop Williamson.



    I agree. As far as I know Bishop Williamson never excluded the idea that one day the Catholic resistance will have to accept a position sede vacante. My point was that a few resistance priests are making it into almost a heresy to even accept the fact that it could happen. This crisis cannot continue forever. God will not permit it. It will only end in the pope's conversion after perhaps a chastisement, or a pope who openly becomes a manifest heretic and intends to destroy everything left of the Catholic Church in which case faithful Catholics will need to react by the best means possible. A situation sede vacante is inevitable if the pope does not convert.
    We conclude logically that religion can give an efficacious and truly realistic answer to the great modern problems only if it is a religion that is profoundly lived, not simply a superficial and cheap religion made up of some vocal prayers and some ceremonies...

    Offline TKGS

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    The Resistance and the end of the Crisis in the Church
    « Reply #3 on: December 10, 2013, 10:32:52 AM »
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  • Quote from: Centroamerica
    Quote from: John Grace


    We should follow the resistance of Bishop Williamson.



    I agree. As far as I know Bishop Williamson never excluded the idea that one day the Catholic resistance will have to accept a position sede vacante. My point was that a few resistance priests are making it into almost a heresy to even accept the fact that it could happen. This crisis cannot continue forever. God will not permit it. It will only end in the pope's conversion after perhaps a chastisement, or a pope who openly becomes a manifest heretic and intends to destroy everything left of the Catholic Church [/color]in which case faithful Catholics will need to react by the best means possible. A situation sede vacante is inevitable if the pope does not convert.


    Oops!  Too late.

    Offline bowler

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    The Resistance and the end of the Crisis in the Church
    « Reply #4 on: December 10, 2013, 10:47:08 AM »
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    Offline bowler

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    The Resistance and the end of the Crisis in the Church
    « Reply #5 on: December 10, 2013, 10:49:37 AM »
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  • Quote from: TKGS
    Quote from: Centroamerica
    Quote from: John Grace


    We should follow the resistance of Bishop Williamson.



    I agree. As far as I know Bishop Williamson never excluded the idea that one day the Catholic resistance will have to accept a position sede vacante. My point was that a few resistance priests are making it into almost a heresy to even accept the fact that it could happen. This crisis cannot continue forever. God will not permit it. It will only end in the pope's conversion after perhaps a chastisement, or a pope who openly becomes a manifest heretic and intends to destroy everything left of the Catholic Church [/color]in which case faithful Catholics will need to react by the best means possible. A situation sede vacante is inevitable if the pope does not convert.


    Oops!  Too late.


    Oops too late is right.


    This reminds me of the story of Big John:

    Quote
    A bar owner in the Old West has just hired a timid new bartender. The owner of the establishment is giving his new hire some instructions on running the place. He tells the timid man, "If you ever hear that Big John is coming to town, drop everything and run for the hills!

    A few weeks pass uneventfully. One afternoon, a local cowhand comes running through town yelling, "Big John is a comin, run for your lives!"

    When the bartender ties to exit the saloon to start running, he's knocked to the ground by several townspeople scurrying out of town. As he's picking himself up, he sees a mountain of a  man burst through the bar doors riding a Buffalo and using a Rattlesnake for a whip. The man jumps off the Buffalo, and crashes his giant fist through the bar, and says whiskey!

    Then bartender nervously grabs a fresh bottle on puts it on the counter, and the man break the bottle neck with his teeth and swigged it all down in one shot. As the poor timid bartender cowers behind the bar, the big man gets up to leave. "Do you want another whiskey sir?" the bartender calls out.

    Ain't got time, Big John is a-comin


    If Paul VI, JPII, B16 and Francis are not manifest heretics, then I don't want to be around when one shows up.

    Offline JPaul

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    The Resistance and the end of the Crisis in the Church
    « Reply #6 on: December 10, 2013, 10:53:00 AM »
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  • There is one, then there is another, and yet again another.  One who speaks out and says,  "we must face the truth and stop living in the ambiguity of denial", and the other who will say, "Oh yes it is true but even so, we cannot speak of our observation to the extent of its obvious conclusions. It will lead to other ambiguities and confusion", and yet others with disparate but similar opinions and accompanying anecdotes.

    We can see what is before us and it is confounding and confusing, but to try and clear it up we will confound many and create more confusion. And that is where the battle for the Religion and Faith ends.
    We have for fifty years lived by this model, we have failed on almost all fronts save for a relatively few pockets of replicated Tradition and Catholicism.

    How long oh my Lord!

    Offline Centroamerica

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    The Resistance and the end of the Crisis in the Church
    « Reply #7 on: December 10, 2013, 12:45:55 PM »
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  • Quote from: TKGS
    Quote from: Centroamerica
    Quote from: John Grace


    We should follow the resistance of Bishop Williamson.



    I agree. As far as I know Bishop Williamson never excluded the idea that one day the Catholic resistance will have to accept a position sede vacante. My point was that a few resistance priests are making it into almost a heresy to even accept the fact that it could happen. This crisis cannot continue forever. God will not permit it. It will only end in the pope's conversion after perhaps a chastisement, or a pope who openly becomes a manifest heretic and intends to destroy everything left of the Catholic Church [/color]in which case faithful Catholics will need to react by the best means possible. A situation sede vacante is inevitable if the pope does not convert.


    Oops!  Too late.



    You said it not me...... :idea:

    Maybe you should read the original post one more time.
    We conclude logically that religion can give an efficacious and truly realistic answer to the great modern problems only if it is a religion that is profoundly lived, not simply a superficial and cheap religion made up of some vocal prayers and some ceremonies...


    Offline cantatedomino

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    The Resistance and the end of the Crisis in the Church
    « Reply #8 on: December 10, 2013, 02:45:57 PM »
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  • FR. CHAZAL: We should be content with the principle of Nullam Partem with heretics, not denying the existence of heresies when they appear in Rome, unlike the XSPX, who threw us overboard on account of us sticking to that principle.

    CANTATE: Hmmm. I wonder if this statement means the same thing that I've been saying: We have to call them what they are - heretics or infidels - and we have to go oout from them; but we need not go so far as to proclaim whether or not they are true popes.

    Offline cantatedomino

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    The Resistance and the end of the Crisis in the Church
    « Reply #9 on: December 10, 2013, 02:53:30 PM »
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  • FR. CHAZAL: It confirms that sedevacantism is in fact a logical Pandora s box, leading more to confusion than order, since, yet again, another theory emerges... one among so many species . . . Archbishop Lefebvre was keen to say that the theory has some serious reasons, but it leads to no certain conclusions. It looks very clear at the start, yet ends in great confusion, leading to a dangerous fragmentation of the Remnant of the Faith . . . But the Archbishop always refused to tread beyond this point, the overall sterility of the sedevacantist movement proved him right . . .

    I don t see a difference of degree between these two modernists, between these two heretics.

    CANTATE: Deo Gratias! Finally a cleric steps up to the plate and hits a home run. Clear. Concise. Calls a spade and spade but does not exceed the limit.

    This is leadership in action. This is a good priest.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    The Resistance and the end of the Crisis in the Church
    « Reply #10 on: December 10, 2013, 02:56:23 PM »
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  • Quote
    It confirms that sedevacantism is in fact a logical Pandora s box, leading more to confusion than order, since, yet again, another theory emerges... one among so many species.


    Oh, it does nothing of the sort, Father.

    Quote
    [Sedevacantism leads] to a dangerous fragmentation of the Remnant of the Faith.


    And the sedeplensits are not fragmented (aka NSSPX vs. SSPX SO)?

    Fragmentation happens when you lose the legitimate central authority in the Church, Father ... aka the Pope.  Only under sedevacante could there happen this material fragmentation within the Church.  Only when the shepherd has been struck can the sheep be scattered.

    I'm starting to lose more and more respect for the Resistance.  In fact, I would have to say that the NSSPX position might be more internally consistent.  If Francis is certainly the Pope, then the Fellay position makes the most sense.


    Offline cantatedomino

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    The Resistance and the end of the Crisis in the Church
    « Reply #11 on: December 10, 2013, 02:58:51 PM »
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  • We are all practically SV now, in that we maintain the Faith without the pope, the bishops, the cathedrals, the parishes, etc.

    For all intents and purposes, even if these men are popes, we have no pope; because these men are not Catholic.

    We cannot be dogmatic about anything yet.

    But we most certainly can be and must be taking action to defend, preserve, and pass on the Faith, without a Church hierarchy.

    It's really quite simple.

    It only gets hard when we go all dogmatic about it.

    Offline cantatedomino

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    The Resistance and the end of the Crisis in the Church
    « Reply #12 on: December 10, 2013, 03:05:09 PM »
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  • Quote from: Ladislaus
    Quote
    It confirms that sedevacantism is in fact a logical Pandora s box, leading more to confusion than order, since, yet again, another theory emerges... one among so many species.


    Oh, it does nothing of the sort, Father.




    Actually it does. I've been referring to the SV' camp as "the endless genealogies crowd" for years. I was actually surprised to see another person characterize it as such.

    SV does lead to confusion, to perturbation, to despair, to historical revisionism, and to flight from the Sacraments. I've seen these things in real souls.  

    Fr. Chazal correctly lists some of the bad fruits of being dogmatic about SV.

    Also Fr. Chazal strikes me as a priest for the Faith and not for politics. That is something quite different than what we have been served up by the so-called resistance for months. Fr. Chazal is talking about events happening in rome. How refreshing.

    Offline cantatedomino

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    The Resistance and the end of the Crisis in the Church
    « Reply #13 on: December 10, 2013, 03:08:54 PM »
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  • Quote from: Ladislaus
    Fragmentation happens when you lose the legitimate central authority in the Church, Father ... aka the Pope.  


    No doubt this is correct. But this fragmentation possibly can occur when a true pope abdicates his authority and renounces his mission through heresy. It can happen when the Chair is vacant, but maybe also when the Chair is not technically vacant, but filled only by a soulless corpse.  

    Online 2Vermont

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    The Resistance and the end of the Crisis in the Church
    « Reply #14 on: December 10, 2013, 03:50:12 PM »
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  • Quote from: cantatedomino
    CANTATE: Hmmm. I wonder if this statement means the same thing that I've been saying: We have to call them what they are - heretics or infidels - and we have to go out from them; but we need not go so far as to proclaim whether or not they are true popes.


    Yes, let's all think it but not say it.  

    Every time I hear anything like the bolded, it never makes sense to me.
    "For there is not any thing secret that shall not be made manifest, nor hidden, that shall not be known and come abroad."- Luke 8:17

     

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