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Author Topic: Why Marijuana is Gravely Sinful  (Read 26299 times)

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Offline Matthew

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Re: Why Marijuana is Gravely Sinful
« Reply #15 on: April 21, 2022, 09:24:02 AM »
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  • 3) Mark79 is looking at the issue from the vantage of medicinal benefit, and in that regard he seems to have some knowledge.  But from the moral perspective, I’m sure he would not presume to know more about morals that traditional priests.  But in any case, the article is not discussing medicinal use.

    With all due respect to priests everywhere, isn't there a limit of "full understanding" that can be reached by laymen and priests alike?
    Let me put it another way: it doesn't take 6 years in the seminary and the Priestly character to understand "losing the faculty of reason on purpose is a mortal sin".

    Just like it doesn't take a PhD to understand that seeing buildings or ships dozens "too far away" (farther away than should be possible) based on curvature-of-earth calculations poses problems for the Globe Earth model. Some things are common sense. Those without certifications (seminary training, PhD, college degrees) are not therefore STUPID and unable to grasp basic concepts!

    Put that together with a deeper knowledge of state-of-the-art in marijuana production, latest scientific research, and medicinal properties of the various chemicals in this herb, and some (like me) are led to conclude that an article by Mark79 is worth much more, holds more weight, commands more respect, etc. than a similar-length article by the likes of Fr. Scott.

    In other words, the moral component is basic and therefore EASILY grasped by the untrained layman: "purposely taking away faculty of reason in human being = grave sin".  Mark79 could easily "catch up to" Fr. Scott's grasp of that. Now what? Mark79 has then proceeded to fly loops around Fr. Scott with his up-to-date, educated, and nuanced knowledge on the issue of medicinal pot use.
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Why Marijuana is Gravely Sinful
    « Reply #16 on: April 21, 2022, 09:27:38 AM »
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  • There was no "microdosing justification".  It was an attempt to draw out the principles from people's thick skulls.  Microdosing involves the use of just enough THC to provide benefits of relaxation, relief of anxiety and depression, etc. WITHOUT there being a high or even a buzz ... the principle being that the morality hinges entirely on the impairment of the faculties, as the pre-V2 moral theologians very clearly explained.  This is not particularly difficult stuff.

    It is false to contend that “morality hinges entirely upon the impairment of the faculties...”

    Am I morally permitted to drink poison (or otherwise harm myself) if there is no impairment of reason?

    For example, if it were shown that sustained use of MJ in small doses (microdosing) causes schizophrenia, would it still be a morally licit practice?
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Why Marijuana is Gravely Sinful
    « Reply #17 on: April 21, 2022, 09:29:54 AM »
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  • Sean, please define "recreational".  This is key to a rational debate. 

    Any non-medicinal use.

    PS: Even some medicinal uses are prohibited (eg., when there is no necessity, and/or cases in which the benefit does not outweigh the risk to health, etc).
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Why Marijuana is Gravely Sinful
    « Reply #18 on: April 21, 2022, 09:30:12 AM »
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  • It is false to contend that “morality hinges entirely upon the impairment of the faculties...”

    Am I morally permitted to drink poison (or otherwise harm myself) if there is no impairment of reason?

    For example, if it were shown that sustained use of MJ in small doses (microdosing) causes schizophrenia, would it still be a morally licit practice?

    Sean, according to your whole argument then Catholics everywhere need to boycott Big Pharma.

    I hold that man-made drugs have much *worse* side effects, and offer less benefits, than certain substances found in pot (talk to Mark79 about the details; I'm not an expert at all)

    I trust natural remedies quite a bit, and at any rate I don't trust Big Pharma *at all*.

    If it's moral to fill prescriptions at your pharmacy -- ingesting OBJECTIVELY POISONOUS substances made by Big Pharma, despite the possibility of serious side effects -- then it's hard to argue you can't take medicinal pot for similarly good reasons.
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    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Why Marijuana is Gravely Sinful
    « Reply #19 on: April 21, 2022, 09:32:45 AM »
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  • It is false to contend that “morality hinges entirely upon the impairment of the faculties...”

    Am I morally permitted to drink poison (or otherwise harm myself) if there is no impairment of reason?

    For example, if it were shown that sustained use of MJ in small doses (microdosing) causes schizophrenia, would it still be a morally licit practice?
    Alcohol is technically a form of poison, as are, broadly-speaking, most modern medicines (chemo being an obvious one); so yes, you could take certain poisons if the end of the action is still good. You could even take microdoses of cyanide (under strict medical observation) to increase your resistance to it.

    Now, if your aim in drinking poison is to cause significant harm or impairment to yourself (again, the same principles surrounding alcohol consumption), then no, it is not morally licit. Which is literally what Lad, and others, have been arguing about MJ. Which in itself has been outright condemned by some as inherently evil.
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]


    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Why Marijuana is Gravely Sinful
    « Reply #20 on: April 21, 2022, 09:35:03 AM »
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  • I hold that pot has a worse reputation, more avoidance/mistrust, etc. than it deserves.

    Meanwhile, man-made chemical drugs developed and produced by Big Pharma have *way* more respect and trust than they deserve.

    If your mother or Grandma had a few bottles of Big Pharma wares on her counter, you wouldn't bat an eye. But if she had medicinal pot, it would be completely different. 
    Why is that? Totally irrational.

    All the evidence points to the dangers of Big Pharma and great benefits from natural remedies, including medicinal pot.
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Why Marijuana is Gravely Sinful
    « Reply #21 on: April 21, 2022, 09:35:13 AM »
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  • How much is required to produce the same effect is entirely irrelevant to the discussion of the principle ... that's merely a practical consideration.  It only "heavily implies" anything due to the thick skulls and lack of intellectual capacity of some involved in the debate.

    [Whatever the amount is ...] to produce a similar level of impairment as [whatever amount of alcohol] doesn't really matter.  What matter is the level of impairment of the higher faculties and a justification is required proportional to the level of impairment.

    That’s part of my argument:

    The impairment of the faculties is significantly higher in 1-2 puffs of MJ, than in 1-2 beers (and therefore the argument they amount to the same level of impairment is false.  But that is precisely the argument some have made.

    Note, however, the level of impairment is not the only cause of sinfulness (contrary to what you said above).
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: Why Marijuana is Gravely Sinful
    « Reply #22 on: April 21, 2022, 09:36:37 AM »
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  • By law, commercial beer does not have to list all the chemicals contained/used to produce said beer.  Some in the industry have anonymously stated that up to 100 different chemicals are used (and still remain) in most commercial beers.  Commercially produced spirits also have high amounts of sulfur and commercial wine uses high amounts of sulfites, both of which have been scientifically studied to cause heart and liver issues.

    Most all commercially produced products (even soap) contain harsh chemicals, many of which cause cancer.  How about pesticides and food?  Or the dangers of plastics?  Let's not introduce chemicals/poisons into the argument or else we couldn't walk into a walmart...


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Why Marijuana is Gravely Sinful
    « Reply #23 on: April 21, 2022, 09:38:38 AM »
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  • Yeah, I tried to elicit a definition (in Catholic terms) of "recreation" on the other thread ... and it was all in vain.  These people aren't interested in a rational discussion or debate.  They simply emote, huff and puff, use personal attacks, even to the point of slandering those who disagree with them by propping up a strawman position.

    As usual, your own comments condemn you.  Nobody else in this thread is exhibiting the behavior you are describing.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Yeti

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    Re: Why Marijuana is Gravely Sinful
    « Reply #24 on: April 21, 2022, 09:41:06 AM »
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  • The use of marijuana or other narcotics has been discussed by every single moral theologian, and they all gave the same answer, namely that the sinfulness of its use is the same as for that of alcohol.

    There is not one single moral theologian that anyone has produced here who said that all recreational use of non-alcohol drugs is always mortally sinful. People have quoted Jone and Prummer, but they are only giving the consensus opinion. NO ONE on the other side has produced a single pre-Vatican II theology book that says all usage of marijuana is sinful. I would really like to see such a quote if it exists, though I'm fairly certain it doesn't.

    As Catholics we are supposed to learn what is right and wrong from theologians, not our own opinions.

    Every action is presumed to be licit unless the contrary is proved. People asking for a Catholic source saying that using marijuana is okay are making the wrong argument.

    No simple priest, SSPX or otherwise, has any right to say that the unanimous opinion of theologians is wrong in allowing the recreational use of drugs if it does not impair the use of reason.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Why Marijuana is Gravely Sinful
    « Reply #25 on: April 21, 2022, 09:41:41 AM »
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  • But...for people who do research...they can safely and morally use MJ, in theory (I wouldn't know nor will I ever care to find out).

    So much for Matthew’s contention that nobody here is justifying the recreational use of MJ.

    I have nothing more to add.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline Miser Peccator

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    Re: Why Marijuana is Gravely Sinful
    « Reply #26 on: April 21, 2022, 09:47:18 AM »
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  • One aspect that I don't believe has been discussed are the cultural implications of recreational pot use.

    There is a distinct pot smoking "culture" which is widely seen as antithetical to Traditional Catholicism.  Cheech and Chong etc.

    Didn't Paul discuss this with regards to eating food that is sacrificed to idols? (1 Cor 8) Even if a Christian understood that it wasn't sinful to eat such food, if doing so could cause scandal to others he advised to avoid it altogether.

    I think this is the crux of the divide at CathInfo on this issue.  Some can rightly make rigorous distinctions for certain criteria which would morally allow the use of mj.

    While others are rightly concerned about the unseemly culture that tends to go with the practice and the scandal that causes especially to young people who could be misled. 

    This is especially distressing and upsetting to some because we are losing our Catholic culture in every way and are trying very hard to retain a semblance of the Catholic culture cherished by generations past and pass that down to our children.

    Not everything that is licit as advisable.




    Quote
    7But there is not knowledge in every one. For some until this present, with conscience of the idol, eat as a thing sacrificed to an idol: and their conscience, being weak, is defiled. 8But meat doth not commend us to God. For neither, if we eat, shall we have the more: nor, if we eat not, shall we have the less. 9But take heed lest perhaps this your liberty become a stumblingblock to the weak. 10For if a man see him that hath knowledge sit at meat in the idol's temple, shall not his conscience, being weak, be emboldened to eat those things which are sacrificed to idols? 11And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ hath died? 12Now when you sin thus against the brethren and wound their weak conscience, you sin against Christ. 13Wherefore, if meat scandalize my brother, I will never eat flesh, lest I should scandalize my brother.



    I exposed AB Vigano's public meetings with Crowleyan Satanist Dugin so I ask protection on myself family friends priest, under the Blood of Jesus Christ and mantle of the Blessed Virgin Mary! If harm comes to any of us may that embolden the faithful to speak out all the more so Catholics are not deceived.



    [fon

    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: Why Marijuana is Gravely Sinful
    « Reply #27 on: April 21, 2022, 09:48:25 AM »
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  • Yes, alcohol and MJ can be used non-medically/recreationally because low doses produce similar effects - promotion of relaxation, healthy moods and well being.

    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: Why Marijuana is Gravely Sinful
    « Reply #28 on: April 21, 2022, 09:51:08 AM »
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  • And most people go to bars to get drunk and have one-night stands.  The "alcohol culture" is the most immorally "socially acceptable" anti-catholic culture that exists.  Doesn't mean it's a sin to go to a bar...

    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Why Marijuana is Gravely Sinful
    « Reply #29 on: April 21, 2022, 09:52:44 AM »
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  • I need to clarify what I said earlier:

    When I said no one promotes recreational use, I wasn't talking about small doses (short of getting high) or non-medical contexts.

    What I meant was: we don't have anyone promoting the full pothead behavior and lifestyle. Smoke all you want, frequently, carelessly, etc. For most people, "Recreation" involves a certain lack of worrying over every step, a certain carefree-ness, a certain desire for fun.

    Just like in MOST contexts in The World, "going out drinking" involves getting DRUNK. For a Catholic that is a mortal sin. But many Catholics drink alcohol, always being careful to not over-do it.

    I don't think I'm being unreasonable, as if I'm erecting some kind of strawman. Because certain persons are IN FACT using terms like "doper" and "pothead" which *certainly* implies not only excessive, free, unrestricted use of pot, but also the entire corresponding (libertine, licentious) lifestyle as well. THAT is what I was denying: we don't have any actual "potheads" on CathInfo. Nor anyone truly promoting the stuff for "fun" or "recreational" use aside from "roscoe".

    And no, intellectual discussions about theoretical justified use for non-medicinal purposes is NOT the same thing.
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