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Author Topic: Vigano on Rejecting Abortive Vaccines (Again)  (Read 5201 times)

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Offline SeanJohnson

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Re: Vigano on Rejecting Abortive Vaccines (Again)
« Reply #30 on: August 24, 2020, 03:27:17 PM »
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    Yeah, well, I certainly haven't seen any explanation for why it would be intrinsically evil to use the cells of an aborted fetus for scientific research, much less to receive a medicine developed using such material.
    .
    In the example of the guy drinking poison, it's clear that his object is ѕυιcιdє, because he is drinking to prevent himself from being taken alive. ѕυιcιdє is always sinful. The object isn't drinking in itself, because then he would be just as happy to drink a can of Coke in the same situation as he is to drink the poison. But if you grabbed the poison away from such a person and handed him a Coke (possibly quoting the old advertising slogan, "Have a Coke!"), he would get angry because you interfered with his real object. He is using death as a way of escaping the enemy, which is immoral. (Some people seem to think Coke is poisonous, so those people can replace "Coke" with "smart water" or whatever they like :laugh2:).
    .
    The object of taking medicine is to restore or protect one's health. That is a good object.

    To quote your own words: "He is using death as a way of escaping the enemy, which is immoral."  Just as the recipient of an abortive vaccine is "using death as a way of escaping" COVID19, which is then likewise immoral.
    .

    .
    Well, the average person receiving the vaccine would not have this intention. If there is some inherent connection between receiving this vaccine and helping to abort children, I would certainly like to see it, but that's what's missing here.

    Intention is irrelavent.  It is the object of an act which makes it intrinsically evil or not.

    .
    Using cadavers for scientific research is as old as time, and I have never seen any claim that it is wrong to use a cadaver that was murdered, much less that it is wrong to receive treatments that depend on knowledge derived from the cadavers of murder victims. But this in no way takes away from the heinousness of the sin of murder.

    Using cadavers who did not choose to become cadavers, as in the case at hand?

    See my responses in red above.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Vigano on Rejecting Abortive Vaccines (Again)
    « Reply #31 on: August 24, 2020, 03:31:35 PM »
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  • Also to be noted is the fact that COVID19 is fatal to almost nobody who was not already dying of something else already (i.e., It is fatal for well under 1% who contract it, on par with influenza mortality rates)

    and

    There is no guarantee the vaccine will work (In fact, there is a growing awareness that the purpose of vaccination is to pollute human DNA/RNA, making them more prone to disease for the profit of the medical industry).

    So when you throw those two observations into evaluating the morality of using abortive vaccines, the Vatican/SSPX argument seems even weaker (i.e., no necessity to use them).
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Vigano on Rejecting Abortive Vaccines (Again)
    « Reply #32 on: August 24, 2020, 03:33:27 PM »
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    So you are saying the government would say, "Anyone who receives this vaccination, we will accept their participation as accepting the practice of abortion." I mean, who cares how they interpret your actions anyway? Someone getting injected with medicine is really not doing anything more than taking medicine.

    I was contrasting the vaccine issue with something more in-your-face, i.e. Obamacare birth control insurance mandate.  (Even though it has been overturned), the law was unmistakably clear that a catholic insurance plan HAD to pay for birth control.  This is overtly, publicly and morally wrong.  And everyone knows it.
    .
    Another example would be pharmacists who are forced to hand out birth control pills.  There's no guessing involved; this is morally wrong.
    .
    Or, some of the county workers who refused to take part in issuing g@y marriage licenses.  Again, no guesswork involved.
    .
    Vaccines, on the other hand, are not advertised as ALL having fetal cells.  Many times it's denied and many doctors/nurses don't know.  So it's not as in-your-face as other examples.  Gray area, until proven.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Vigano on Rejecting Abortive Vaccines (Again)
    « Reply #33 on: August 24, 2020, 03:34:56 PM »
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  • The notion that anyone receiving a drug that had aborted baby tissue used in its production is somehow guilty of abortion is typical of the emotional non-reasoning ...

    Straw man.  Nobody argues that those who receive these vaccines are guilty of abortion.

    Offline Yeti

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    Re: Vigano on Rejecting Abortive Vaccines (Again)
    « Reply #34 on: August 24, 2020, 03:37:47 PM »
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  • Straw man.  Nobody argues that those who receive these vaccines are guilty of abortion.
    Then what are they supposedly guilty of?


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Vigano on Rejecting Abortive Vaccines (Again)
    « Reply #35 on: August 24, 2020, 03:41:05 PM »
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  • Straw man.  Nobody argues that those who receive these vaccines are guilty of abortion.

    True, but the Tweet from +Strickland above comes close, saying that if Catholics are not going to refuse these types of vaccines, then abortion will never end.

    It seems to me that he is suggesting (rightly) that such Catholics would be complicit in abortion (just as a man who buys stolen property is encouraging theft by creating a market for the stolen goods).
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Vigano on Rejecting Abortive Vaccines (Again)
    « Reply #36 on: August 24, 2020, 03:42:02 PM »
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  • Then what are they supposedly guilty of?

    OK, we've gone over this 50 times.

    1) material participation in abortion

    and

    2) desecration of the dead

    Let's say they suddenly put the whole bodies of aborted babies on the market for sale.  Would it be OK to purchase them as feed for your farm animals?

    Offline Yeti

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    Re: Vigano on Rejecting Abortive Vaccines (Again)
    « Reply #37 on: August 24, 2020, 03:44:09 PM »
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  • To quote your own words: "He is using death as a way of escaping the enemy, which is immoral."  Just as the recipient of an abortive vaccine is "using death as a way of escaping" COVID19, which is then likewise immoral.
    .
    Er, not unless we're arguing that people are committing ѕυιcιdє to get away from COVID, which I don't think anyone is doing.
    .
    Intention is irrelavent.  It is the object of an act which makes it intrinsically evil or not.
    .
    Agreed. But the object of receiving a vaccine is to benefit one's health in some way, which is not immoral.
    .
    Using cadavers who did not choose to become cadavers, as in the case at hand?
    .
    Well, I've never heard of this being sinful, and I can't see why it would be unless you have scientific researchers hiring people to go out and murder people, which seems to have happened in Scotland in the early days of modern medicine, but that was a rare and strange case.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Vigano on Rejecting Abortive Vaccines (Again)
    « Reply #38 on: August 24, 2020, 03:44:37 PM »
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  • True, but the Tweet from +Strickland above comes close, saying that if Catholics are not going to refuse these types of vaccines, then abortion will never end.

    It seems to me that he is suggesting (rightly) that such Catholics would be complicit in abortion (just as a man who buys stolen property is encouraging theft by creating a market for the stolen goods).

    Having material participation in abortion is not the same as saying that someone is "guilty of abortion".

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Vigano on Rejecting Abortive Vaccines (Again)
    « Reply #39 on: August 24, 2020, 03:45:00 PM »
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  • Then what are they supposedly guilty of?
    They are not guilty of procuring abortion, but are guilty of being complicit in promoting abortion by encouraging the manufacturers (just as the man who drives a woman to the abortion clinic is complicit in the woman’s sin).
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Yeti

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    Re: Vigano on Rejecting Abortive Vaccines (Again)
    « Reply #40 on: August 24, 2020, 03:46:53 PM »
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  • Also to be noted is the fact that COVID19 is fatal to almost nobody who was not already dying of something else already (i.e., It is fatal for well under 1% who contract it, on par with influenza mortality rates)

    and

    There is no guarantee the vaccine will work (In fact, there is a growing awareness that the purpose of vaccination is to pollute human DNA/RNA, making them more prone to disease for the profit of the medical industry).

    So when you throw those two observations into evaluating the morality of using abortive vaccines, the Vatican/SSPX argument seems even weaker (i.e., no necessity to use them).
    .
    I share these concerns about the COVID19 vaccine. But I'm not at all sure my concerns about a potential COVID19 vaccine have anything to do with whether it was developed with the help of fetal tissue.


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Vigano on Rejecting Abortive Vaccines (Again)
    « Reply #41 on: August 24, 2020, 03:48:37 PM »
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  • Using cadavers who did not choose to become cadavers, as in the case at hand?
    .
    Well, I've never heard of this being sinful, and I can't see why it would be unless you have scientific researchers hiring people to go out and murder people, which seems to have happened in Scotland in the early days of modern medicine, but that was a rare and strange case.

    What do you think the abortion industry is???

    They are traffickers of murdered babies’ body parts, whose customers are medical research firms.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Yeti

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    Re: Vigano on Rejecting Abortive Vaccines (Again)
    « Reply #42 on: August 24, 2020, 03:52:53 PM »
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  • True, but the Tweet from +Strickland above comes close, saying that if Catholics are not going to refuse these types of vaccines, then abortion will never end.

    It seems to me that he is suggesting (rightly) that such Catholics would be complicit in abortion (just as a man who buys stolen property is encouraging theft by creating a market for the stolen goods).
    .
    Strickland's claim is pretty speculative, and I don't think it makes any sense. So if research using aborted fetal tissue were banned, abortions would cease or even be diminished? I strongly doubt that. People abort their children because they don't want them. I doubt any considerations related to medical research or vaccine development enters into the calculus of anyone contemplating abortion.
    .
    I'm pretty sure it's sinful to knowingly buy stolen property, because that would constitute actual cooperation in the sin of stealing. In the same way, paying a woman to commit an abortion would certainly be sinful because it is helping commit the sin of abortion.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Vigano on Rejecting Abortive Vaccines (Again)
    « Reply #43 on: August 24, 2020, 03:54:57 PM »
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  • True, but the Tweet from +Strickland above comes close, saying that if Catholics are not going to refuse these types of vaccines, then abortion will never end.

    It seems to me that he is suggesting (rightly) that such Catholics would be complicit in abortion (just as a man who buys stolen property is encouraging theft by creating a market for the stolen goods).

    It's a step removed from that.  If there were people going around having abortions so they could sell them for vaccines, one would argue that creating the market demand for these could almost be classified as formal participation in the evil.  There's no evidence that a single extra abortion was motivated by the need to acquire a few small samples of tissue.  When one creates MOTIVATION to evil, then one can be a formal participant in the evil, becoming part of the FORMAL cause for the evil.

    So these vaccines are slightly more removed being being able to impute formal participation in abortion because there's no indication that it was the formal cause of any abortions.

    Offline Matto

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    Re: Vigano on Rejecting Abortive Vaccines (Again)
    « Reply #44 on: August 24, 2020, 04:01:57 PM »
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  • Catholics 1800 years ago - "No, not even a speck of incense will I burn to the false gods of Caesar."

    Catholics today (even sedes :facepalm:) - "Sure, go have yourselves injected with the flesh of murdered babies. No pre-vatican II docuмents condemned it."

    And we condemn women for wearing pants.

    I do think we will be forced to take the vaccine at gunpoint.
    R.I.P.
    Please pray for the repose of my soul.