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Offline SeanJohnson

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Ventilation Nightmare
« on: January 02, 2022, 06:20:38 AM »
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  • [My uncle was flown yesterday to the Mayo Clinic to be put on a ventilator amidst great hysteria and chaos in my family between vaccination zealots and anti-Vax proponents.  At the time of his transfer, he was receiving oxygen and taking calls, responding to emails, and watching football games in the hospital. He is not Vaxed.  Leaving aside what is said below about vaccination (pro-Vax bias, with the details seemingly provided to scare you into getting jabbed), I’m wondering if the cure is worse than the disease:]

    https://atriumhealth.org/dailydose/2021/10/01/covid-19-roundtable-what-really-happens-when-you-go-on-a-ventilator


    The Shocking Truth of What Happens to COVID-19 Patients in the ICU on Life Support
    What really happens when you go on life support for COVID-19? Critical care experts from Atrium Health weigh in on the physical and emotional effects of intubation and recovery. Plus, they share practical tips for protecting your health and avoiding the ICU.


    When it comes to COVID-19, you may think that it will never affect you or someone you love.
    If you’re young and healthy, you may not be concerned about the long-term risks. Or you may have heard that the virus is just like a cold that you’ll get over easily.
    The truth is that 86% of adult COVID-19 patients are ages 18-64, so it’s affecting many in our community. As the COVID-19 surge continues, Atrium Health has a record-breaking number of patients in the intensive care unit (ICU) and on ventilators. An unfortunate and consistent trend has emerged in recent months: 98% of COVID-19 patients on life support at Atrium Health remain unvaccinated.
    With the abundance of misinformation online, it’s important to base your healthcare decisions on facts and real-world experiences from medical professionals. To help educate our community, we interviewed several Atrium Health experts who work at Atrium Health Carolinas Medical Center and who’ve been on the frontlines caring for patients with COVID-19:

    • Jaspal Singh, MD, MHA, MHS, FCCP, FCCM, FAASM, pulmonary, critical care and sleep medicine
    • Chad Harvey, MHA, BSRT, RRT, RCP, respiratory care service line educator
    • Jennifer Cline PT, MS, director of therapy
    • Ashley Katkin, BSN, RN, CCRN, clinical supervisor, Medical Intensive Care Unit
    Learn what happens to COVID-19 patients on ventilators– the machines often used to care for some of the sickest patients and explore the long-term effects of COVID-19 critical care. Plus, review tips on how to stay healthy and avoid the ICU.
    What is involved in intubation?
    Dr. Singh: Intubation is something we do all the time for patients who need surgery. To intubate, we basically put a breathing tube down the patient’s throat. Through that breathing tube, we attach them to a ventilator. This machine helps them exchange oxygen and carbon dioxide, supporting their breathing while they're undergoing an operation or any kind of recovery. We do this all the time, and it's actually very safe and effective.
    Why is intubation for COVID-19 more difficult?
    Dr. Singh: In order to intubate you and put you on a ventilator, we have to sedate you and put you in a coma. Sedation requires medications, which can affect your body in many ways. For short-term use, most patients do pretty well. During long-term use for COVID-19 care, which could be for several weeks or longer, the medications build up in your body and cause all kinds of side effects.
    Harvey: Intubation is never like the way you breathe normally. We're pushing air in, and you're breathing it back out. That process is uncomfortable.
    What side effects can be caused by the medications given during intubation?
    Dr. Singh: As the medications accuмulate in the body, they may cause:

    • Memory issues
    • Problems with weakness
    • Major issues with sleeping and wakening
    • Discomfort and/or pain
    • Constipation
    • Intimacy challenges
    We often don't even know the patient is experiencing these side effects because we can't communicate with them while they’re intubated. Based on scientific studies, the longer you're on a ventilator (especially for multiple weeks), the lower your chance of a good outcome.
    Cline: The situation is similar for someone with cancer. It's not just the cancer that makes you sick. It's the drugs that help treat the cancer that make your hair fall out and your body feel weak. It's the same thing with COVID-19. It's not just the COVID-19 that makes you sick. It's also the medications that we use to keep you alive.
    How do respiratory therapists maintain the patient’s airway during intubation?
    Harvey: We frequently have to put tubes down the patient’s airway to suction mucus and secretions from the lower airway. But it's not the way you would normally cough stuff up. Since we're basically sucking it out of you, it causes you to cough. In some cases, patients have described the suction process as painful. However, keeping the airway clear is needed to ensure the patient’s ability to breath while on the ventilator.
    What are you seeing patients experience at the bedside once they come off the ventilator?
    Katkin: Patients often feel very uncomfortable. They may feel pain or discomfort when we have to turn or reposition them in their bed. They're often disoriented because of the medications, so they don't really know what's going on. I've had people come off of the ventilator and tell me that they thought we were hurting or attacking them.
    How does intubation affect your ability to move around and care for yourself?
    Cline: From a physical therapy standpoint, once you have a tube down your throat, you can't eat anymore. You can't go to the bathroom. You can't bathe yourself. And every single day that you lie in bed, the weakness that you feel keeps increasing.
    Right after coming out of intubation, patients often can’t hold their head up. They can't grip or squeeze things because they're so weak. They also tend to have tight muscles in their ankles from lying in bed for so long, making it impossible for them to stand.
    Even if you’re only intubated for a week, you're still going to struggle to stand up and walk. You're going to need equipment, like a walker or wheelchair, to help you get around. You're going to need a specialized therapy team to help you recover. You may receive this care at a nursing home, at a rehabilitation facility or from in-home care services.
    How does extended intubation affect how patients look?
    Katkin: We use FaceTime to connect patients with their loved ones and family members, since they're unable to be with them in person. Families can see the deterioration virtually, noticing that the patient looks older and frailer with time. The longer they’re in the ICU, the sicker they tend to look.
    Dr. Singh: Patients who went into the ICU looking young and healthy often come out looking like they've aged 10 or 20 years. They have bruises from all the IVs. They may have different types of catheters which can cause injury. For example, we've seen, penile injury from Foley catheters. We've also seen rectal catheters with ulcers.
    If a patient survives the ICU, what struggles might they have when they return home?
    Cline: Patients may be so weak from intubation that they start having nerve pain. They have told us that it feels like their body is on fire. Months later, patients can still struggle with breathing, muscle weakness, fatigue, foggy thinking and nerve pain.
    Patients often tell us that they feel like they're not the same person they were before they got sick. We call it a new normal. Because recovered patients often can't return to work, depending on their former job, they may feel like the person they were before they got sick isn't there anymore. The hardest part, as a therapist, is trying to help these patients regain their strength and movement. We want them to feel like the person they were before they got sick, but that may be the hardest thing for us to do.
    What emotions do you see from COVID-19 patients in the ICU?
    Katkin: Loneliness. Your family is unable to be with you and provide support. They can't be there to hold your hand. I think that's the hardest part for the patient. You're basically lying there with all of these machines keeping you alive, and you're all alone.
    Cline: A lot of nurses in the ICU tell us that the hardest part of their job is staying with patients while they die. Dying from COVID-19 is a very long, slow and painful process. Unfortunately, this disease process makes it so people die by themselves.
    Harvey: Fear. When we’re watching our patients struggle to breathe just before we add the ventilator, they know that the last words they say maybe their last words forever. In those critical moments, I see the fear in people's eyes. It's strong, and it's hard to watch as a clinician.
    Dr. Singh: Regret. It’s the emotion that I’ve seen the most in patients, community members, staff and others. If they haven't been vaccinated, they often wonder: “Am I responsible for getting myself sick? Did I get someone else sick?" Many patients never come to terms with those feelings.
    What can I do to stay out of the ICU?
    Dr. Singh: You can minimize your risk of being in an ICU by taking care of your health. Be sure to boost your immune system by making sure that you're getting enough exercise, sleep and fueling your body with nutritious food and sleep. You should also practice avoiding crowds and poorly ventilated places, wear a mask and practice good hand hygiene.
    Of all the preventive measures you can take, vaccination is the most effective. It's the best thing you can do for yourself and your loved ones. And it will help ensure that you don’t have to live with regret.
    Where can I get reliable information about COVID-19?
    Dr. Singh: Consult your doctor or someone else you trust who has training in science and medicine. You can also visit CDC.gov and AtriumHealth.org for useful, credible and reliable information.

    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Ventilation Nightmare
    « Reply #1 on: January 02, 2022, 06:30:52 AM »
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  • It seems +Faure and Mark79 were very fortunate to survive their hospitalizations from COVID19:


    In the Hospital With COVID: ‘You Can Check In, but You Can Never Leave’
    • December 28, 2021



    https://blogs.mercola.com/sites/vitalvotes/archive/2021/12/28/in-the-hospital-with-covid-_1820_you-can-check-in-but-you-can-never-leave_1920_.aspx 






    In a stunning video interview with a doctor treating COVID-19 patients, The Desert Review uncovers the secrets health officials and hospitals aren’t telling — and that is that “they are being held hostage and segregated from loved ones. And the reason is money.” 
    “COVID patients in America’s hospitals today are actually being treated worse than prisoners in American jails,” Dr. Elizabeth Lee Vliet says. The very structure of how hospitals are reimbursed for COVID patients is what’s causing this, she says.
    “They (the hospitals) are paid by the government to do a PCR test on every patient who walks in the door … Then they are paid extra for a COVID admission to the hospital. They are paid an extra 20% bonus on the entire hospital bill, if the hospital ONLY uses remdesivir to treat the patient.
    “And then if the patient goes on a ventilator, which is a consequence of some of the toxicity of remdesivir and the restriction of fluids and nutrients that they are also doing, and once the patient is on a ventilator there is ANOTHER incentive bonus to the hospitals. If the patient dies in the hospital, there is another incentive payment,” Vliet states. 
    This video is over an hour long but it’s worth watching every minute. It could save your or a loved one’s life.

    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Ventilation Nightmare
    « Reply #2 on: January 02, 2022, 09:43:36 AM »
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  • It seems +Faure and Mark79 were very fortunate to survive their hospitalizations from COVID19:


    In the Hospital With COVID: ‘You Can Check In, but You Can Never Leave’
    • December 28, 2021



    https://blogs.mercola.com/sites/vitalvotes/archive/2021/12/28/in-the-hospital-with-covid-_1820_you-can-check-in-but-you-can-never-leave_1920_.aspx


    In a stunning video interview with a doctor treating COVID-19 patients, The Desert Review uncovers the secrets health officials and hospitals aren’t telling — and that is that “they are being held hostage and segregated from loved ones. And the reason is money.” 
    “COVID patients in America’s hospitals today are actually being treated worse than prisoners in American jails,” Dr. Elizabeth Lee Vliet says. The very structure of how hospitals are reimbursed for COVID patients is what’s causing this, she says.
    “They (the hospitals) are paid by the government to do a PCR test on every patient who walks in the door … Then they are paid extra for a COVID admission to the hospital. They are paid an extra 20% bonus on the entire hospital bill, if the hospital ONLY uses remdesivir to treat the patient.
    “And then if the patient goes on a ventilator, which is a consequence of some of the toxicity of remdesivir and the restriction of fluids and nutrients that they are also doing, and once the patient is on a ventilator there is ANOTHER incentive bonus to the hospitals. If the patient dies in the hospital, there is another incentive payment,” Vliet states. 
    This video is over an hour long but it’s worth watching every minute. It could save your or a loved one’s life.


    I believe it. Hospitals ceased being humanitarian, human, benevolent non-profit organizations staffed by principled doctors (having swore the Hippocratic Oath) and legions of professed religious nuns taking care of Christ in the person of the sick and wounded.

    We are SO FAR from that old ideal and reality of hospitals it's disgusting to think about.

    Hospitals are a business now. Even the non-profits are interested in profit -- they just re-invest it in new equipment or something. That still qualifies as non-profit.
    With never-before seen levels of stupidity, lawyers, lawsuits, malpractice insurance, etc. hospitals are always looking for an angle to make an extra buck. They have to, to survive.
    Want to say "thank you"? 
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Ventilation Nightmare
    « Reply #3 on: January 02, 2022, 11:27:40 AM »
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  • I'm wondering why the issue of living wills ( aka "health care directive") has not been mentioned.

    In these docuмents, legally binding, and giving spouses power of attorney, your "end of life" instructions can be laid out.

    If someone had the following clause inserted in it, would it be binding upon hospital administration?

    "Under no circuмstances am I to be placed on a ventilator, until/unless ivermectin and all the following medications have been tried and found ineffective after running their time-allotted courses" (or some such verbiage).

    Last I heard, living wills were legally binding, and hospitals would be open to huge fines and lawsuits for violating them.

    Is it just that nobody has thought to include such instructions in their living will?

    Here's an article about living wills/health care directives: https://www.alllaw.com/articles/wills_and_trusts/article7.asp 
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Ventilation Nightmare
    « Reply #4 on: January 02, 2022, 11:29:46 AM »
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  • I believe it. Hospitals ceased being humanitarian, human, benevolent non-profit organizations staffed by principled doctors (having swore the Hippocratic Oath) and legions of professed religious nuns taking care of Christ in the person of the sick and wounded.

    We are SO FAR from that old ideal and reality of hospitals it's disgusting to think about.

    Hospitals are a business now. Even the non-profits are interested in profit -- they just re-invest it in new equipment or something. That still qualifies as non-profit.
    With never-before seen levels of stupidity, lawyers, lawsuits, malpractice insurance, etc. hospitals are always looking for an angle to make an extra buck. They have to, to survive.
    100% true. The more surgeries they have, the more money they take in. Therefore, there is a serious question on the idea of some surgeries done out of necessity or whether the patient is talked into it for the bottom line. Second, there's also the gender re-assignment butchers in many hospitals now (including the one I work at), which is yet another money-maker leeching off of the evil of feeding into supposed "gender dysphoria"
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]


    Offline Mark 79

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    Re: Ventilation Nightmare
    « Reply #5 on: January 02, 2022, 11:32:31 AM »
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  • It seems +Faure and Mark79 were very fortunate to survive their hospitalizations from COVID19

    Yes. They call us "long-haulers."

    Offline Tradman

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    Re: Ventilation Nightmare
    « Reply #6 on: January 02, 2022, 11:47:41 AM »
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  • [My uncle was flown yesterday to the Mayo Clinic to be put on a ventilator amidst great hysteria and chaos in my family between vaccination zealots and anti-Vax proponents.  At the time of his transfer, he was receiving oxygen and taking calls, responding to emails, and watching football games in the hospital. He is not Vaxed.  Leaving aside what is said below about vaccination (pro-Vax bias, with the details seemingly provided to scare you into getting jabbed), I’m wondering if the cure is worse than the disease:]

    https://atriumhealth.org/dailydose/2021/10/01/covid-19-roundtable-what-really-happens-when-you-go-on-a-ventilator


    The Shocking Truth of What Happens to COVID-19 Patients in the ICU on Life Support
    What really happens when you go on life support for COVID-19? Critical care experts from Atrium Health weigh in on the physical and emotional effects of intubation and recovery. Plus, they share practical tips for protecting your health and avoiding the ICU.


    When it comes to COVID-19, you may think that it will never affect you or someone you love.
    If you’re young and healthy, you may not be concerned about the long-term risks. Or you may have heard that the virus is just like a cold that you’ll get over easily.
    The truth is that 86% of adult COVID-19 patients are ages 18-64, so it’s affecting many in our community. As the COVID-19 surge continues, Atrium Health has a record-breaking number of patients in the intensive care unit (ICU) and on ventilators. An unfortunate and consistent trend has emerged in recent months: 98% of COVID-19 patients on life support at Atrium Health remain unvaccinated.
    With the abundance of misinformation online, it’s important to base your healthcare decisions on facts and real-world experiences from medical professionals. To help educate our community, we interviewed several Atrium Health experts who work at Atrium Health Carolinas Medical Center and who’ve been on the frontlines caring for patients with COVID-19:

    • Jaspal Singh, MD, MHA, MHS, FCCP, FCCM, FAASM, pulmonary, critical care and sleep medicine
    • Chad Harvey, MHA, BSRT, RRT, RCP, respiratory care service line educator
    • Jennifer Cline PT, MS, director of therapy
    • Ashley Katkin, BSN, RN, CCRN, clinical supervisor, Medical Intensive Care Unit
    Learn what happens to COVID-19 patients on ventilators– the machines often used to care for some of the sickest patients and explore the long-term effects of COVID-19 critical care. Plus, review tips on how to stay healthy and avoid the ICU.
    What is involved in intubation?
    Dr. Singh: Intubation is something we do all the time for patients who need surgery. To intubate, we basically put a breathing tube down the patient’s throat. Through that breathing tube, we attach them to a ventilator. This machine helps them exchange oxygen and carbon dioxide, supporting their breathing while they're undergoing an operation or any kind of recovery. We do this all the time, and it's actually very safe and effective.
    Why is intubation for COVID-19 more difficult?
    Dr. Singh: In order to intubate you and put you on a ventilator, we have to sedate you and put you in a coma. Sedation requires medications, which can affect your body in many ways. For short-term use, most patients do pretty well. During long-term use for COVID-19 care, which could be for several weeks or longer, the medications build up in your body and cause all kinds of side effects.
    Harvey: Intubation is never like the way you breathe normally. We're pushing air in, and you're breathing it back out. That process is uncomfortable.
    What side effects can be caused by the medications given during intubation?
    Dr. Singh: As the medications accuмulate in the body, they may cause:

    • Memory issues
    • Problems with weakness
    • Major issues with sleeping and wakening
    • Discomfort and/or pain
    • Constipation
    • Intimacy challenges
    We often don't even know the patient is experiencing these side effects because we can't communicate with them while they’re intubated. Based on scientific studies, the longer you're on a ventilator (especially for multiple weeks), the lower your chance of a good outcome.
    Cline: The situation is similar for someone with cancer. It's not just the cancer that makes you sick. It's the drugs that help treat the cancer that make your hair fall out and your body feel weak. It's the same thing with COVID-19. It's not just the COVID-19 that makes you sick. It's also the medications that we use to keep you alive.
    How do respiratory therapists maintain the patient’s airway during intubation?
    Harvey: We frequently have to put tubes down the patient’s airway to suction mucus and secretions from the lower airway. But it's not the way you would normally cough stuff up. Since we're basically sucking it out of you, it causes you to cough. In some cases, patients have described the suction process as painful. However, keeping the airway clear is needed to ensure the patient’s ability to breath while on the ventilator.
    What are you seeing patients experience at the bedside once they come off the ventilator?
    Katkin: Patients often feel very uncomfortable. They may feel pain or discomfort when we have to turn or reposition them in their bed. They're often disoriented because of the medications, so they don't really know what's going on. I've had people come off of the ventilator and tell me that they thought we were hurting or attacking them.
    How does intubation affect your ability to move around and care for yourself?
    Cline: From a physical therapy standpoint, once you have a tube down your throat, you can't eat anymore. You can't go to the bathroom. You can't bathe yourself. And every single day that you lie in bed, the weakness that you feel keeps increasing.
    Right after coming out of intubation, patients often can’t hold their head up. They can't grip or squeeze things because they're so weak. They also tend to have tight muscles in their ankles from lying in bed for so long, making it impossible for them to stand.
    Even if you’re only intubated for a week, you're still going to struggle to stand up and walk. You're going to need equipment, like a walker or wheelchair, to help you get around. You're going to need a specialized therapy team to help you recover. You may receive this care at a nursing home, at a rehabilitation facility or from in-home care services.
    How does extended intubation affect how patients look?
    Katkin: We use FaceTime to connect patients with their loved ones and family members, since they're unable to be with them in person. Families can see the deterioration virtually, noticing that the patient looks older and frailer with time. The longer they’re in the ICU, the sicker they tend to look.
    Dr. Singh: Patients who went into the ICU looking young and healthy often come out looking like they've aged 10 or 20 years. They have bruises from all the IVs. They may have different types of catheters which can cause injury. For example, we've seen, penile injury from Foley catheters. We've also seen rectal catheters with ulcers.
    If a patient survives the ICU, what struggles might they have when they return home?
    Cline: Patients may be so weak from intubation that they start having nerve pain. They have told us that it feels like their body is on fire. Months later, patients can still struggle with breathing, muscle weakness, fatigue, foggy thinking and nerve pain.
    Patients often tell us that they feel like they're not the same person they were before they got sick. We call it a new normal. Because recovered patients often can't return to work, depending on their former job, they may feel like the person they were before they got sick isn't there anymore. The hardest part, as a therapist, is trying to help these patients regain their strength and movement. We want them to feel like the person they were before they got sick, but that may be the hardest thing for us to do.
    What emotions do you see from COVID-19 patients in the ICU?
    Katkin: Loneliness. Your family is unable to be with you and provide support. They can't be there to hold your hand. I think that's the hardest part for the patient. You're basically lying there with all of these machines keeping you alive, and you're all alone.
    Cline: A lot of nurses in the ICU tell us that the hardest part of their job is staying with patients while they die. Dying from COVID-19 is a very long, slow and painful process. Unfortunately, this disease process makes it so people die by themselves.
    Harvey: Fear. When we’re watching our patients struggle to breathe just before we add the ventilator, they know that the last words they say maybe their last words forever. In those critical moments, I see the fear in people's eyes. It's strong, and it's hard to watch as a clinician.
    Dr. Singh: Regret. It’s the emotion that I’ve seen the most in patients, community members, staff and others. If they haven't been vaccinated, they often wonder: “Am I responsible for getting myself sick? Did I get someone else sick?" Many patients never come to terms with those feelings.
    What can I do to stay out of the ICU?
    Dr. Singh: You can minimize your risk of being in an ICU by taking care of your health. Be sure to boost your immune system by making sure that you're getting enough exercise, sleep and fueling your body with nutritious food and sleep. You should also practice avoiding crowds and poorly ventilated places, wear a mask and practice good hand hygiene.
    Of all the preventive measures you can take, vaccination is the most effective. It's the best thing you can do for yourself and your loved ones. And it will help ensure that you don’t have to live with regret.
    Where can I get reliable information about COVID-19?
    Dr. Singh: Consult your doctor or someone else you trust who has training in science and medicine. You can also visit CDC.gov and AtriumHealth.org for useful, credible and reliable information.


    This bears repeating. Over and over and over again. Intubation is the assurance Covid will continue to kill people. Remember Trump wanted to reform Chrysler in order to manufacture thousands of ventilators as well as fast track vaccines? People should know this: since the disease probably won't get you, the treatment will.  There's a video out there somewhere, of a women who went in and tangled with the hospital until they gave her husband the treatment she demanded.  They gave in and he was out of the hospital in a few days. While tangling with hospital staff won't work in all cases, it is essential people grow a backbone and defend their family members from Covid mistreatment.  It's the killer. 

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Ventilation Nightmare
    « Reply #7 on: January 02, 2022, 01:39:57 PM »
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  • When You Should Choose NOT to Go on a Ventilator

    By Brad Stuart MD | May 11, 2020
    4 Comments


    https://bradstuartmd.us/when-you-should-choose-not-to-go-on-a-ventilator/ 

    Some of you might decide — far ahead of the crisis — that if you get Covid-19, you do not want to have that tube put down your windpipe (intubation) and be placed on a breathing machine (mechanical ventilation).
    And put it in writing — in an advanced health care directive.
    And beyond that, tell your doctor to put your wishes on a POLST form. That’s a Physician’s Order for Life-Sustaining Treatment (it may have different names in different states). Then your doctor should sign it and send it to you, so you can sign it too. This can all be done remotely, without a visit to the hospital or medical office.
    I’m telling you this as a doctor who has spent 25 years treating very sick patients in hospice and palliative care. Before that, I spent many years treating very sick patients in hospitals and ICU’s — and on ventilators.
    The sad truth: many older people with chronic illnesses who get Covid-19 should be in hospice — but will never get there.
    Instead they will die, isolated and alone, in hospitals and ICUs.
    And they will die very uncomfortable deaths, as we doctors try in vain to keep them alive.
    Which is too bad, because we know how to make these sick people comfortable — and keep them that way (see below).
    The choice for aggressive treatment or comfort should be yours, not ours.
    If you don’t choose, and docuмent your choices, we will treat you — to death.
    Here is my own opinion — take it for what it’s worth.
    If you are over 60 and have high blood pressure, diabetes, heart or lung disease, kidney trouble or cancer undergoing treatment with radiation or chemotherapy — particularly if you’re obese, which complicates any of those conditions — you may want to fill out those forms and stipulate that you do not want anyone to attempt resuscitation or perform intubation and mechanical ventilation.
    Some of you who are older than 60, with or without those (or other) chronic illnesses, may want to do the same thing.
    And I would also put in writing that if you’re hospitalized and become seriously ill, you want a palliative care consultation. Palliative care will provide you with a balanced picture of your options and help you (and your loved ones, by phone) decide what’s best — for you, not just for the sake of clinical urgency.
    Why is this approach reasonable?
    Here’s some honest clinical information. Don’t read on unless you want to know how serious Covid-19 and its treatment can be for older people.
    Not everyone who gets Covid-19 will become sick enough to be admitted to the hospital, and just a fraction of those folks will need mechanical ventilation.
    But older people with chronic illnesses will go down that path in disproportionately large numbers.
    And they will die much more often than younger patients.
    Here’s the central point — If you become sick enough to need mechanical ventilation, odds are you won’t do well.
    First, you may not survive. In New York, up to 88% of patients placed on ventilators died before they could be weaned off.
    Second, if you make it off the ventilator and survive to hospital discharge, you will almost certainly be in much worse shape than before you became ill with Covid-19.
    That means you may end up severely disabled, enough to require assistance from others just to meet your daily needs.
    In other words, independent living may be out of the question for you. You’ll be in a nursing home — assuming they can find a bed for you. Or if you have the funds (or long term care insurance) you might need to hire care workers.
    Why? Because this virus doesn’t just attack the lungs. It attacks many other organs too, and even the lining of your blood vessels.
    Consequently, most people who become seriously ill and recover have severe and persistent health problems.
    I’m not saying you shouldn’t go to the hospital at all. I am saying that if your condition worsens to the point that you “need” resuscitation or mechanical ventilation, you might choose to decline them — ahead of time, in writing — before you’re caught in a crisis.
    Here’s something you can only learn through bitter experience — take it from me and avoid a lot of heartache:
    It is far easier to withhold mechanical ventilation at first than to withdraw it once it’s been started.
    All that said, please bear in mind that if you choose not to be ventilated, you will still get the best available treatment. And you won’t need resuscitation unless your heart stops — at which point you may want to leave well enough alone.
    On the other hand, as soon as you bring in palliative care, your comfort is almost assured.
    Because palliative care people will relieve your breathing difficulty using morphine, which can be taken by mouth.
    Studies show morphine is the most effective medication available to relieve shortness of breath.
    And other research shows that when morphine is used properly (which palliative care clinicians are trained to do) it does not shorten life — in fact, compared to aggressive treatment, it may help you live longer.
    There should be no objection, religious or otherwise, to the use of morphine for shortness of breath, because there is no evidence that when it’s used properly that it hastens death.
    Palliative care is so important because without it, keeping you comfortable can be difficult.
    Why? Because morphine for shortness of breath is terribly underused nationwide, especially in hospitals and particularly in ICUs.
    Some intensive care doctors know how to use it, but many don’t — and refuse to learn.
    Requesting palliative care makes your comfort more certain — and less a roll of the dice.
    So consider an advanced healthcare directive and POLST form that say “Do Not Attempt Resuscitation” and “No Mechanical Ventilation.” And for good measure, “Palliative Care Consultation.”
    Because once you cross that line, it’s a point of no return.



    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Ventilation Nightmare
    « Reply #8 on: January 02, 2022, 02:01:23 PM »
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  • People that go into the ventilators for the covid flu are people who had no plan other than doing whatever their doctor tells them. They likely have taken the shots for the same reason. 

    Offline josefamenendez

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    Re: Ventilation Nightmare
    « Reply #9 on: January 02, 2022, 06:12:03 PM »
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  • Yikes- what a dangerous article!!!!
    Palliative care means comfort support for patients who have decided that they don't want further therapeutic care and have decided to to die. This is end of life care. The end.
    If I'm reading this correctly, they are saying that refusal of a ventilator is essentially a DNR ( Do Not Resuscitate) and you should be under the jurisdiction of hospice /palliative care team if you refuse a ventilator.
    In this day and age of COVID, refusal of a ventilator is more likely a sign that you would like to continue LIVING!!!- do NOT sign a DNR and do not refuse other medical and procedural resuscitation measures Like CPR, emergency medications and less intrusive oxygen delivery methods. Say no to the Ventilator - only!!
    Morphine Sulfate in low dosage can slow and relax respirations but it can easily be used to depress respiratory effort and initiate respiratory arrest- in fact it very often does.( MS in larger dosing is usually used on mechanically ventilated patients who do not have the threat of respiratory arrest). 

    This is a very insidiously evil article. You really have to read between the lines to see that the author is steering you towards "benevolent euthanasia" rather than therapeutic treatment and informed consent. Now 60 is the new 90 and worthy of hospice care- nice. This is pretty scary.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Ventilation Nightmare
    « Reply #10 on: January 02, 2022, 06:18:55 PM »
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  • Yikes- what a dangerous article!!!!
    Palliative care means comfort support for patients who have decided that they don't want further therapeutic care and have decided to to die. This is end of life care. The end.
    If I'm reading this correctly, they are saying that refusal of a ventilator is essentially a DNR ( Do Not Resuscitate) and you should be under the jurisdiction of hospice /palliative care team if you refuse a ventilator.
    In this day and age of COVID, refusal of a ventilator is more likely a sign that you would like to continue LIVING!!!- do NOT sign a DNR and do not refuse other medical and procedural resuscitation measures Like CPR, emergency medications and less intrusive oxygen delivery methods. Say no to the Ventilator - only!!
    Morphine Sulfate in low dosage can slow and relax respirations but it can easily be used to depress respiratory effort and initiate respiratory arrest- in fact it very often does.( MS in larger dosing is usually used on mechanically ventilated patients who do not have the threat of respiratory arrest).

    This is a very insidiously evil article. You really have to read between the lines to see that the author is steering you towards "benevolent euthanasia" rather than therapeutic treatment and informed consent. Now 60 is the new 90 and worthy of hospice care- nice. This is pretty scary.

    Oh?  I did not pick up on that!  I agree: Only reject the vent, and do not sign a DNR.  I thought it was coaching on just how to avoid the ventilator.  Yikes!
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline Mark 79

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    Re: Ventilation Nightmare
    « Reply #11 on: January 02, 2022, 06:40:42 PM »
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  • … It's the killer.

    More accurately, mistreatment is ONE of the killers. The virus ALSO kills some susceptible people.

    Offline Mark 79

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    Re: Ventilation Nightmare
    « Reply #12 on: January 02, 2022, 06:48:58 PM »
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  • People that go into the ventilators for the covid flu are people who had no plan other than doing whatever their doctor tells them. They likely have taken the shots for the same reason.
    I am becoming ever more impressed at the stupidity of your sweeping half-baked generalizations.

    _I_ "went into the ventilator" because I was in a coma from COVID. I had nothing to say about it. I had no "DNR" and I had no "living will." They were obligated to do it. My family, as much as it may shock you, wanted me to live. I was on the ventilator for 4 months. They even had to bolt me to a circular frame to "prone" me (turn me face down) to keep my oxygen levels high enough to barely survive. I was quadriplegic when I finally woke up and still needed the ventilator.

    Also I have no "taken the shot."

    Shove your offensive generalizations.

    Offline Mark 79

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    Re: Ventilation Nightmare
    « Reply #13 on: January 02, 2022, 06:55:40 PM »
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  • Yikes- what a dangerous article!!!!
    Palliative care means comfort support for patients who have decided that they don't want further therapeutic care and have decided to to die. This is end of life care. The end.
    If I'm reading this correctly, they are saying that refusal of a ventilator is essentially a DNR ( Do Not Resuscitate) and you should be under the jurisdiction of hospice /palliative care team if you refuse a ventilator.
    In this day and age of COVID, refusal of a ventilator is more likely a sign that you would like to continue LIVING!!!- do NOT sign a DNR and do not refuse other medical and procedural resuscitation measures Like CPR, emergency medications and less intrusive oxygen delivery methods. Say no to the Ventilator - only!!
    Morphine Sulfate in low dosage can slow and relax respirations but it can easily be used to depress respiratory effort and initiate respiratory arrest- in fact it very often does.( MS in larger dosing is usually used on mechanically ventilated patients who do not have the threat of respiratory arrest).

    This is a very insidiously evil article. You really have to read between the lines to see that the author is steering you towards "benevolent euthanasia" rather than therapeutic treatment and informed consent. Now 60 is the new 90 and worthy of hospice care- nice. This is pretty scary.
     
    You nailed that!

    Now that I have been able to review events over which I had no say, I learned that high flow O2 (like 30-40 liters/minute), the preferred method, was not able to sustain my oxygen levels at a survivable level, so it was "pull the plug" or "roll the dice" on the ventilator.

    Notwithstanding the careless mistakes they made, they did save my life with a ventilator.

    Not everyone one is that lucky. Some were put on ventilators who should not have been, then died. Some were put on ventilators who should have been, then died. 


    Offline josefamenendez

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    Re: Ventilation Nightmare
    « Reply #14 on: January 03, 2022, 10:21:09 AM »
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  • From the info I have been able to obtain, a lot of vent deaths are from the mismanagement of the settings, as there is no liability for healthcare workers because of COVID, they were letting the inexperienced and students play around with the vent settings like it was a big game or unmonitored educational experience- oops! patient died- next!