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Author Topic: Veganism acceptable for Catholics?  (Read 5752 times)

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Offline PG

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Veganism acceptable for Catholics?
« on: May 22, 2018, 12:30:18 AM »
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  • For starters, I am not a vegan(I am wearing a leather belt).  I have eaten a vegan diet for many years.  I currently am not.  Although, I always remain quite close to a vegan diet.  Currently I am regularly consuming organic butter in my diet.  That is pretty much it/the only animal product.

    However, I sympathize with the veganism concern regarding how we treat the animals(Gods creatures) entrusted to our care.  If torturing animals has a correlation with murdering/torturing humans, which is the consensus, then ought we especially be concerned with how we treat the animals we eat?  I think so.    

    I recently posted a video exposing some of the horrendous and immoral practices in the dairy industry.  And, my video was censored here on CI.  This video has nearly 5 million views, 75 thousand likes, 7.5 thousand likes, with 25 thousand comments on youtube.  That sounds like a pretty successful important video.  And, in my opinion it is.

    I was warned never again to post anything like that video.  So, if you want to see the video, PM me and I will refer you from there(That is the best I can do you matthew, and reasonable).  I think it is an amazing video.  And, I simply wanted to share it, so that we can better understand the consequences of profit driven food culture.  Scripture associates heaven with "butter" and "milk".  And, heaven is what we were made for.  So, we have much reason to want to get it right.

    "A secure mind is like a continual feast" - Proverbs xv: 15


    Offline PG

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    Re: Veganism the CI version of h0Ɩ0cαųst denial?
    « Reply #1 on: May 22, 2018, 12:04:31 PM »
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  • correction, past post should say 75 thousand likes to 7.5 thousand "dislikes".

    Here is the official definition of veganism, and it is interesting.  It is really open ended, that suggests it is not a dogmatic religious cult that worships animals roaming the planet free of boundary and intrusion.  

    I mean, if you go to their website https://www.vegansociety.com/go-vegan/definition-veganism, you will see a picture on the front page of happy goats in a barn smiling out the barn window.  If the vegan society were really using the words exploitation and cruelty to go the extreme(wild horses/free the animals promotion), they would not promote something so far from the extreme(farm animals in a barn).  If they were really extreme, they would argue those goats in the barn and "cruelly locked up" against their will and "exploited for some or such purpose".  But, they are not.  They are promoting traditional husbandry with that picture.  

    "A philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude—as far as is possible and practicable—all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose; and by extension, promotes the development and use of animal-free alternatives for the benefit of humans, animals and the environment. In dietary terms it denotes the practice of dispensing with all products derived wholly or partly from animals."



    "A secure mind is like a continual feast" - Proverbs xv: 15


    Offline Geremia

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    plant-based diet
    « Reply #2 on: May 22, 2018, 01:03:48 PM »
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  • Veganism the CI version of h0Ɩ0cαųst denial?
    Just substitute "plant-based diet" for the word "vegan".

    St. Benedict's Rule #39:
    Quote from: St. Benedict
    But let all except the very weak and the sick abstain altogether from eating the flesh of four-footed animals.
    St. Thomas Aquinas also viewed meat as a food for sick/weak people.

    Before original sin, God only gave Adam & Eve fruits and vegetables for food, saying that this food is also for the animals:
    Quote from: Gen. 1:29-30
    29. And God said: Behold I have given you [Adam & Eve] every herb bearing seed upon the earth, and all trees that have in themselves seed of their own kind, to be your meat.
    30. And to all beasts of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to all that move upon the earth, and wherein there is life, that they [the animals, not Adam & Eve] may have to feed upon. And it was so done.

    Flesh meat, eggs, and milk foods are "are a very great incentive to lust" (Summa Theologica II-II q. 147 a. 8 co.), which is one reason why the Church forbids eating them certain times throughout the year.
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    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Veganism the CI version of h0Ɩ0cαųst denial?
    « Reply #3 on: May 22, 2018, 01:10:05 PM »
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  • "A philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude—as far as is possible and practicable—all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose; and by extension, promotes the development and use of animal-free alternatives for the benefit of humans, animals and the environment. In dietary terms it denotes the practice of dispensing with all products derived wholly or partly from animals."
    It is a view that contradicts Scripture.  See Genesis 9:  

    [1] And God blessed Noe and his sons. And he said to them: Increase and multiply, and fill the earth. [2] And let the fear and dread of you be upon all the beasts of the earth, and upon all the fowls of the air, and all that move upon the earth: all the fishes of the sea are delivered into your hand. [3] And every thing that moveth and liveth shall be meat for you: even as the green herbs have I delivered them all to you.

    God blessed Noah and his descendants (i.e. all humanity) to increase, multiply and to use animals, birds, and fish for food.  These vegans are calling this God-given right "exploitation" as if there were something wrong with it.


    Offline Geremia

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    Re: Veganism the CI version of h0Ɩ0cαųst denial?
    « Reply #4 on: May 22, 2018, 01:17:51 PM »
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  • Genesis 9
    Yes, God allows eating meat after the Fall, but that doesn't mean we should. He's not forcing anyone to eat meat, just like the precept to increase and multiply no longer applies today, now that the world is sufficiently populated.
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    Offline Matto

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    Re: Veganism the CI version of h0Ɩ0cαųst denial?
    « Reply #5 on: May 22, 2018, 01:27:59 PM »
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  • I find veganism interesting and am sympathetic towards it. I can understand not wanting to promote cruelty towards animals and also the environmental concerns. And also eating simpler foods for spiritual reasons though I don't think most vegans are vegans for this reason. I mean many monks in the past would not eat much meat. Sometimes I think my ideal diet would be to eat nothing but potatoes, but I don't think that would be healthy so I have never tried it. But I do try to avoid eating a lot of meat.
    R.I.P.
    Please pray for the repose of my soul.

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Veganism the CI version of h0Ɩ0cαųst denial?
    « Reply #6 on: May 22, 2018, 01:34:14 PM »
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  • Yes, God allows eating meat after the Fall, but that doesn't mean we should. He's not forcing anyone to eat meat, just like the precept to increase and multiply no longer applies today, now that the world is sufficiently populated.
    People have a right to eat and eating is a good thing.  There can be spiritual benefits in giving up this good for a time and so there is a discipline of fasting.  Similarly, celibacy is a discipline which gives up a good.  Similarly, abstaining from meat is a discipline which gives up a good.

    The point of these spiritual disciplines is, not there is anything intrinsically wrong with that which we give up, but that we relinquish a rightful and good thing out of the love of God.

    Veganism denies that eating meat is a rightful and good thing.  There are good reasons for a Catholic to abstain from meat but it is an error to say that eating meat is intrinsically wrong.  It is just like there are good reasons for a Catholic to be celibate but it is an error to say that marriage is intrinsically wrong.

    Offline Geremia

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    Muslim ritual slaughter
    « Reply #7 on: May 22, 2018, 01:35:51 PM »
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  • I recently posted a video exposing some of the horrendous and immoral practices in the dairy industry.
    There's another on how Muslims ritually slaughter their cows; they basically bleed them to death.
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    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Veganism
    « Reply #8 on: May 22, 2018, 01:44:04 PM »
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  • There's another on how Muslims ritually slaughter their cows; they basically bleed them to death.
    Avoiding cruel ways to slaughter animals does not require abstaining from meat completely which is the goal of veganism.

    Offline PG

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    Re: Veganism the CI version of h0Ɩ0cαųst denial?
    « Reply #9 on: May 22, 2018, 01:44:45 PM »
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  • geremia - Their problem is not with the word vegan.  Their problem is with what it represents.  I try to avoid using words or phrases(plant based) that do not mean what they represent(in this case the problem of bestiality/cruelty/exploitation in the industry).  

    Modern catholic carnivores are not censoring a vegan video because it "might" be against old testament salvation history/animal sacrifices and therefore some established catholic schools of thought.  No, they are censoring it because they don't want to be alone in their consumption of non organic meat and dairy.  

    My posts point out the problem of anti veganism(censoring revealing the graphic facts of the industry), and the possible compatibility of veganism short term with the gospel.  Someone just started a thread recently lamenting about how "evil is proclaimed as good in our day and good is proclaimed as evil".  Yet, we have a thread like this one here finding relevancy(veganism regarded as evil).    

    Yes, the monastics are the pillars of the church.  They are our role model, not our scape goat.  But, catholics seem to think the latter.  Hello vatican 2 contradiction and the fall of even the monastic.  The vegan society does not advocate stopping taking non vegan medicine.  This is one of the reasons I consume organic butter.  It helps me get more/sufficient food down due to taste, and I get some inexpensive fat.  However, I may cut it out due to the fact that artificial insemination of animals is very problematic due to the bestiality involved, the lack of genetic diversity, and the fact that cows should not be eating grain(all of these probably institutionalized in organic market).  

    And, yes, a traditional plant based diet would fix the problem that our culture seems to have with masturbation and pornography use.  
    "A secure mind is like a continual feast" - Proverbs xv: 15

    Offline Geremia

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    what we eat matters
    « Reply #10 on: May 22, 2018, 01:49:09 PM »
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  • Veganism denies that eating meat is a rightful and good thing.
    And for different reasons: some because of "animal rights" and others because of the harmful health effects of a diet including animal products

    If all one ate was pure meat every single day, that certainly would be a sin; but the same cannot be said about eating pure fruits and veggies daily. This can sustain one's health (assuming one is not very sick).
    In other words: What one eats matters; diet is not entirely a "spiritual discipline"; we're not angels.
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    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Veganism the CI version of h0Ɩ0cαųst denial?
    « Reply #11 on: May 22, 2018, 01:54:54 PM »
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  • Their problem is not with the word vegan.  Their problem is with what it represents.  I try to avoid using words or phrases(plant based) that do not mean what they represent(in this case the problem of bestiality/cruelty/exploitation in the industry).  

    Modern catholic carnivores are not censoring a vegan video because it "might" be against old testament salvation history/animal sacrifices and therefore some established catholic schools of thought.  No, they are censoring it because they don't want to be alone in their consumption of non organic meat and dairy.  

    My posts point out the problem of anti veganism(censoring revealing the graphic facts of the industry), and the possible compatibility of veganism short term with the gospel.  Someone just started a thread recently lamenting about how "evil is proclaimed as good in our day and good is proclaimed as evil".  Yet, we have a thread like this one here finding relevancy(veganism regarded as evil).    

    Yes, the monastics are the pillars of the church.  They are our role model, not our scape goat.  But, catholics seem to think the latter.  Hello vatican 2 and the fall of even the monastic(proof of the error).  The vegan society does not advocate stopping taking non vegan medicine.  This is one of the reasons I consume organic butter.  It helps me get more/sufficient food down due to taste, and I get some inexpensive fat.  However, I may cut it out due to the fact that artificial insemination of animals is very problematic due to the bestiality involved, the lack of genetic diversity, and the fact that cows should not be eating grain(all of these probably institutionalized in organic market).  

    And, yes, a traditional plant based diet would fix the problem that catholics seem to have with masturbation and pornography use.  
    Matthew explained his reason for removing your post here: https://www.cathinfo.com/fighting-errors-in-the-modern-world/value-of-shocking-inappropriate-videos-in-spreading-the-truth/msg610596/?topicseen#msg610596

    One of the purposes for having a moderator is for him to make this sort of judgemental call.  It was a perfectly reasonable thing for him to do.  

    Veganism, as a philosophy, is not compatible with Catholicism.  It is evil and closely linked to other evils promoted by leftists. 

    The practices of monastics are for those who are called to that life.  You might as well claim that the married should refrain from sex because monks are celibate.

    Offline PG

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    Re: Veganism the CI version of h0Ɩ0cαųst denial?
    « Reply #12 on: May 22, 2018, 02:00:50 PM »
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  • It is a view that contradicts Scripture.  See Genesis 9:  

    [1] And God blessed Noe and his sons. And he said to them: Increase and multiply, and fill the earth. [2] And let the fear and dread of you be upon all the beasts of the earth, and upon all the fowls of the air, and all that move upon the earth: all the fishes of the sea are delivered into your hand. [3] And every thing that moveth and liveth shall be meat for you: even as the green herbs have I delivered them all to you.

    God blessed Noah and his descendants (i.e. all humanity) to increase, multiply and to use animals, birds, and fish for food.  These vegans are calling this God-given right "exploitation" as if there were something wrong with it.
    Their definition is very skillfully worded.  At this point in time, I do not believe that vegans are enemies of the gospel.  One, this is a philosophy, which is a creature of culture/society, and in this case rightfully so.  As culture/society changes(for the better), philosophy does as well.  Their wording/definition is open to this interpretation as well, in a favorable light.  They make it a point to emphasize exploitation and cruelty.  Exploitation is associated with profit and selfishness.  And, genesis does not advocate for either of those, especially if cruel.  The genesis argument is a poor one against veganism.  
    "A secure mind is like a continual feast" - Proverbs xv: 15

    Offline Fanny

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    Re: Veganism the CI version of h0Ɩ0cαųst denial?
    « Reply #13 on: May 22, 2018, 02:02:24 PM »
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  • I think most vegans don't eat meat not because there is something intrinsically wrong with meat and animal products, but because they are rightly disgusted in how our meat and animal products are raised.

    Consider these facts:

    - chickens live in a cage 1ft x 1ft stacked one on top of another, 1000 or more to a building, their entire lives, eating whatever is put in front of them including animal feces, are shot up with hormones and antibiotics to prevent them from getting sick.  Sound tasty?

    - cows are routinely fed their own manure as food.  They are packed in so tightly that they can barely move. Sick cows, old cows, whatever, are beaten, prodded, hoisted alive, to put beef on your table. Mmmm....

    - milk cows are artificially inseminated (never meet a bull), are impregnated every year to keep milk production up, never have a break between babies, and never meet their babies because the babies are stripped off mamma, are given massive hormones to increase milk production, and lots of antibiotic routinely.  The cows never see The sun.  The milk cows get all kinds of infections including mastitis (pus).  The FDA says a certain percent of that in your milk is o.k.  yum....

    - meat chickens?  Just YouTube it, but do it on an empty stomach.  Gross!

    I could go on and on.

    How to solve it?  Buy from local ranchers and farmers!  

    Most cities have farm market days.
    Most family farmers and ranchers sell on Craigslist.

    When I lived in the city we met the cow, bought the cow, had it delivered to a butcher, I was given a tour of the facility to know how the cow would be butchered (very humane).  I got several families together to share in the meat.  Eating well can be done, and done cheaper than buying organic in the store.

    I no longer think vegans are nuts.  I think they're trying to be healthy.

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: what we eat matters
    « Reply #14 on: May 22, 2018, 02:02:40 PM »
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  • And for different reasons: some because of "animal rights" and others because of the harmful health effects of a diet including animal products

    If all one ate was pure meat every single day, that certainly would be a sin; but the same cannot be said about eating pure fruits and veggies daily. This can sustain one's health (assuming one is not very sick).
    In other words: What one eats matters; diet is not entirely a "spiritual discipline"; we're not angels.
    Veganism as a philosophy is morally wrong.  Refraining from meat for health reasons is medically wrong.

    There is no good evidence of harmful health effects from including animal products in ones diet.  Eating pure meat every day is not an ideal diet but not intrinsically sinful.  Under some circuмstances it might be a sin.

    A diet consisting solely of fruits and vegetables is also not ideal.  Certain essential nutrients would be missing and a person eating that way would eventually become sick.