Catholic Info
Traditional Catholic Faith => Health and Nutrition => Topic started by: treadingwater on June 26, 2010, 07:47:52 PM
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I am pregnant with my seventh child. It is my belief that God would not have left the fate of mankind in the hands of a flawed system. That our bodies instinctively know how to birth our babies. We are mammals in the basic sense horse's, cats, monkeys don't need an obstetrician to tell them when to push, a nurse to hold their legs, or a midwife to empower them. I am submitting to Gods will and design for motherhood trusting his plan for childbirth and letting my body give birth at home, alone.
Why am I posting this here? We are all "Catholics" trusting in Gods plan for us submitting to his will not our own. How far are we all willing to follow his lead? at what costs?
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I am submitting to Gods will and design for motherhood trusting his plan for childbirth and letting my body give birth at home, alone.
God gave us reason. Should we imitate animals if there are good reasons not to do so?
Trusting in God's will means accepting what happens without sin.
It doesn't mean letting things go. It isn't God's Will that we neglect to take necessary precautions.
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I suppose that is okay if everything goes well, but what if; are you willing to chance the life of your baby and yourself on the if factor.
God gave us the gift of medicine, just make sure you choose a good Catholic doctor, if possible.
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Is this a money issue? I have heard that the hospital fees for childbirth are prohibitively expensive these days if you are not insured and that may be one of the ways that the devil tries to get Catholics to stop having large families.
I would at least have a friend or a neighbor or someone around, or even train one of your kids in the rudiments of widwifery if you have a female old enough.
I admire your attitude if you truly don't have the money but are following God's design to have a large family. But if you can scrape it together, do so.
P.S. I was watching a lecture by a parenting "expert" and he was talking about how a couple generations ago, parents raised ten kids more easily than parents today raise two. Could this be because when you have a larger family, the older kids serve as auxiliary moms and dads? I have no experience in these matters but it makes sense to me.
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I've read that the flaw in thinking "a dog/cat/horse doesn't need any assistance" is that these animals have animal-size brains and therefore animal-size heads. The most difficult aspect of delivery a human baby is the head.
I'm not opposed to women who give birth alone out of necessity, but the reason should be more than thinking God intended for women to do so. I don't believe that's true.
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I'm actually almost done with a book right now that is the memoirs of a midwife who worked in Catholic Germany from 1887 to 1920(?) (she's "after the war" at this point, but I have a few chapters to go)
Her involvement in the births increases as time passes, but early in the book, she was mostly a "catcher". Her main role being to reassure the mom when things were normal and to send for the doctor when things were not. Of course, she had a fair number of times when the doctor was unexpectedly necessary.
Several of the "problems" would likely be caught early in these days with prenatal care, but I'm guessing that for many whose intention is to deliver at home alone, there probably hasn't been much in the way of prenatal care.
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Just off the top of my head, I had two pregnancies where the placenta had healed to my uterus and they had to manually tear it off. That happened to my daughter, too, and the doctor didn't get it all out. She almost bleed to death. After the birth of her first they had a hard time cleaning his airways out, so that was touch and go.
I knew a lady once who delivered her uterus. The doctor had a heart attack on the spot, so they had to get him into care and get another doctor to put Rosemary back together.
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Back in the "olden days" when women died giving birth, that was the reason, bleeding to death.
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Or milk fever. You have to watch out for eclampsia, too.
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Can't anyone answer my question do you really believe that God bestowed all these gifts upon us except the ability to give birth? We don't question our hearts ability to pump blood through our body, or are lungs to provide us with oxygen. Why is the uterus the one organ he was unable to perfect? Do you all believe that in this instance only man knows better?
What if? What if?
The majority of complications during pregnancy are due to malnutrition and toxins. I will not be growing this baby with diet cokes and cigarettes and hoping for the best. I take my pre-natal care very seriously I treat any symptoms or concerns I may have with a proper diet supplements and herbal remedies.
And yes God did give us the ability to REASON. Intellect, study on this matter would provide you with the knowledge to REASON that hospitals are not the safest place to give birth. Its a system to benefit the doctors, and provide revenue for the hospital. Doctors are trained in intervention not natural childbirth what good are you to them as a patient if they can not show off their skills. The U.S. is ranked 42 out of industrial countries for maternal death. 41 other countries do a better job of keeping women alive. Women still die from hemorrhaging in hospitals everyday not from natural causes but a doctors necessary intervention.
Dr. Gregory White a very well known catholic obstetrician wrote a manual called Emergency Childbirth. An advocate for homebirth, he states in his book the best help you can give a laboring mother is no help most problems work themselves out. This manual is used to train emt and firemen in childbirth, he also states that any fairly intelligent 8 year old could deliver a baby.
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Humans have weaker instincts than animals. I mean just for example see how birds know how to built houses for themselves without being taught by anybody, while we can't.
A baby has walking instinct but if he is not exposed to it, he can never walk. Nor can he distingiush between dangerous and safe things without guidance (unlike an animal kid).
May be child brearing is not an exemption.
It is funny how birds can eat everything yet if we do so we would end in hospital or death.
In physycial matters may be we are created weaker than other creatures. Hence comes our need for doctors.
But to be fair I must add: yes some elderly people do have greater knowledge in such matters than many doctors. It happens that some old lady can tell your due day more accuraty than your doc by simply looking at your eyes. Some can even guess baby's gender better than any scan.
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There was a man who got caught in a flood. So he climbed a tree and waited trustfully for God to rescue him. The rains kept falling and the water kept rising. A rowboat came by and the people in it hollered for him to jump in. He said, "No thanks. God will rescue me." The rains kept falling and the water kept rising.
A large motor boat came by and the people in it hollered at him to jump in. He said, "No thanks. God will rescue me." So it went on its way. The rains kept falling and the water kept rising.
A helicopter came by and let down a rope and the people yelled, "Grab the rope and we'll pull you up." But the man replied, "No thanks. God will rescue me." So the helicopter went on. The rains kept falling and the water kept rising. And the man drowned.
When he got to heaven he asked God why He hadn't rescued him. God said, "I sent people to get you three times."
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Your analogy would make sense if I or my baby were in fact in danger.
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Treadingwater,
You seem to pass over the third option -- a good, old-fashioned midwife.
The office of midwife is about as old as mankind itself. There was not a time when women delivered babies by themselves. There WAS a time when most women gave birth at home, with women assisting them (midwives).
I agree -- hospitals are not the best place to give birth, for a whole host of reasons. Too much intervention, attitude toward the human body and the birth process, atheistic philosophy, lack of traditional knowledge/common sense regarding childbirth, etc.
But midwives are NOT a bad or newfangled idea! It's simply a woman -- trained in the art -- who assists you with giving birth. She knows all the quick remedies to most of what can go wrong -- and she knows when to send for a doctor.
You haven't been on this forum long, but you might read some of my older posts -- I'm all about living like it's 1890. I live on 5 acres, I have an orchard, a garden, I recently got some chickens, I don't have any "gadgets", not even a cell phone. My house doesn't have a TV. So I'm all about going against the grain, especially where it helps my soul, my body, or my family.
But giving birth alone is something for emergencies only. It would be imprudent to choose it on purpose, if you could afford a midwife.
I notice you mentioned midwives in passing, but wrote them off as being about "empowerment". That's just how they reach the modern woman, to appeal to the affluent/middle class woman who likes the idea of having a "natural" birth -- let's face it, modern-day midwives have to make a living.
My wife made use of a midwife for our 3rd child -- our first normal birth! (The other 2 were c-sections). She didn't preach anything about empowerment to us.
Remember, God created food for us, too, but we can only eat through hard work -- that was the punishment after the Fall. Had Adam & Eve not sinned, delicious, perfect and nutritious food would grow as easily as weeds do today, and women would have painless and effortless childbirth. But since the banishment from Paradise, EVERYTHING has become more difficult and complicated -- controlling our lower nature, procuring food, going to heaven, acquiring knowledge...and having children.
Matthew
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Midwives are found in Scripture, even the earliest books:
Exodus, chapter 1
15 And the king of Egypt spoke to the midwives of the Hebrews: of whom one was called Sephora, the other Phua,
16 Commanding them: When you shall do the office of midwives to the Hebrew women, and the time of delivery is come: if it be a man child, kill it: if a woman, keep it alive.
And if that isn't old enough for you, how about:
Genesis chapter 35
16 And going forth from thence, he came in the springtime to the land which leadeth to Ephrata: wherein when Rachel was in travail, 17 By reason of her hard labour she began to be in danger, and the midwife said to her: Fear not, for thou shalt have this son also. 18 And when her soul was departing for pain, and death was now at hand, she called the name of her son Benoni, that is, The son of my pain: but his father called him Benjamin, that is, The son of the right hand. 19 So Rachel died, and was buried in the highway that leadeth to Ephrata, this is Bethlehem. 20 And Jacob erected a pillar over her sepulchre: this is the pillar of Rachel's monument, to this day.
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Back in the "olden days" when women died giving birth, that was the reason, bleeding to death.
I was going to say that as well. It's the most common cause for the deaths in the book I mentioned I was reading.
Most of those deaths occurred days after the complication so even birthing at home alone likely wouldn't involve much risk of life for the mother. (Presuming, of course, you are not ENTIRELY alone.)
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I totally agree that a doctor should not be a primary source of care for expecting mothers.
When I referred to delivering alone out of necessity, here is what I was thinking... Those I've read of who have delivered alone (with some assistance from hubby) were strong believers in the use of midwives and the avoidance of hospitals for birth. But, they lived in a state were midwives were not legal. A few lived close enough to a state line that they traveled into a neighboring state and gave birth in a hotel room, but others chose to go it alone.
Presuming they themselves knew enough about childbirth (not merely personal experience, but actual knowledge of various issues that could arise) I think they were better off than going to a hospital where their ability to give birth would be impeded by modern medicine.
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The midwives of scripture you speak of are not the trained medical professionals of today, merely women who had children who were well versed in the art of childbirth. By these standards I could call myself a midwife. I know what positions to use to deliver a baby with shoulder dystocia, a breech or posterior presentation. What herbs to use to deliver a delayed placenta, or to stop a hemorrhage. How to perform infant cpr, clear their airway after delivery.I know how to care for myself and baby post-partum.
I have had a midwife attended homebirth, her and I are still friendly. I learned a lot from our partnership, but her involvement was also a hindrance another persons opinions and politics to consider.
In the event of a real emergency a midwife is going to call 911 something my husband or daughter could do.
I am not walking blindly through life. Perhaps my way is the more difficult path to follow anything worth having is worth the effort. We are all given the tools to care for ourselves its just easier to put the risk and responsibility on someone else.
Congratulations to your wife for having a successful birth after 2 c-sections a great accomplishment.
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Danger can arrive quickly in child birth. No matter how much you know, a trained person probably knows better. Don't get your back up, Treadingwater. Can't you see we are concerned about your welfare and that of your child.
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The midwives of scripture you speak of are not the trained medical professionals of today, merely women who had children who were well versed in the art of childbirth. By these standards I could call myself a midwife. I know what positions to use to deliver a baby with shoulder dystocia, a breech or posterior presentation. What herbs to use to deliver a delayed placenta, or to stop a hemorrhage. How to perform infant cpr, clear their airway after delivery.I know how to care for myself and baby post-partum.
Some women have the knowledge (yes, you essentially ARE a midwife) and level-headedness (hard to get worked up about labor when you've done it 3/4/5/6... times before) to be equipped for laboring on their own. You certainly sound like one of those women. The majority of women could not do this and even some who could wouldn't necessarily have on hand things which might be needed in an emergency. Sure, some of these things aren't 100% necessary, but I know if my infant weren't breathing well, I'd want to have oxygen on hand.
I still wouldn't choose this path just "because I can" or suggest that having a professional (could be another mother or even your husband as long as he knows as much as you do) on hand is somehow not trusting enough in God.
Why not find a midwife whose opinions you agree with in order to eliminate the possible hinderance? The midwife I last worked with was very low-key. She answered questions and told me anything I needed to do, but otherwise left me alone until her participation was needed. (I don't know as much as you about delivering a baby. :smile:)
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Ok, you make an excellent point that mammals are able to birth, however you missed the fact that as bipedial mammals we are in fact not at best design for birthing without serious possible complications. It is well scientifically dated that humans have the hardest birthing of their young and that their young is the most underdeveloped of all mammals. As a mother to 5 without medical supervision I would have lost my first one and I should have died after my 3rd one due to hemoraging in my uterus since all of the placenta did in fact not come out. What part of that was the actual responsibility of me doing my job of pushing a child out? none, the fact is child birthing is a delicate and unpredictable event which has many facades that are out of your control. If you are going to refuse God given well educated medical personel then what happens at this event will in fact rest upon your soul if anything goes wrong, I am sure you would hate to die (as I would have on my 3rd child) just because you were not taking precautions.If you did die you would leave behind all your kids with no mother and noone will ever care for them as you would, they might be good mothers but they would not be you so please spare your family a whole lot of heartache and unneccessary worry and do what is right by getting someone with experience to assist you with this birth, I do know what I am talking about.
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Ok, you make an excellent point that mammals are able to birth, however you missed the fact that as bipedial mammals we are in fact not at best design for birthing without serious possible complications. It is well scientifically dated that humans have the hardest birthing of their young and that their young is the most underdeveloped of all mammals. As a mother to 5 without medical supervision I would have lost my first one and I should have died after my 3rd one due to hemoraging in my uterus since all of the placenta did in fact not come out. What part of that was the actual responsibility of me doing my job of pushing a child out? none, the fact is child birthing is a delicate and unpredictable event which has many facades that are out of your control. If you are going to refuse God given well educated medical personel then what happens at this event will in fact rest upon your soul if anything goes wrong, I am sure you would hate to die (as I would have on my 3rd child) just because you were not taking precautions.If you did die you would leave behind all your kids with no mother and noone will ever care for them as you would, they might be good mothers but they would not be you so please spare your family a whole lot of heartache and unneccessary worry and do what is right by getting someone with experience to assist you with this birth, I do know what I am talking about.
Careful not to be too extreme the opposite direction. It's the paranoia about all of the possible things that could happen which drive up the rates of unnecessary intervention in births.
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God made Adam and Eve perfect. But something happened -- the fall. Since then we have imperfection, genetic defects, illness, and death in the world. You always have to take fallen nature into account. God also made our hearts capable of pumping blood, but they fail sometimes too--as do all of our bodily organs.
Given fallen nature, it would be at least borderline sinful not to take sufficient precaution without adequate reasons--such as, for instance, the inability to afford it. I've known too many women into the earthy crunch mother-goddess Gaia mentality--most of which is driven by the Eve-like ego of wanting to be like God. Were it not for modern medicine, I would have been dead at the age of twelve. But modern medicine played a role in God's will that I survive past that time and have five children of my own.
You speak as though we should just eliminate modern medicine altogether--ala Christian Scientists.
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God made Adam and Eve perfect. But something happened -- the fall. Since then we have imperfection, genetic defects, illness, and death in the world. You always have to take fallen nature into account. God also made our hearts capable of pumping blood, but they fail sometimes too--as do all of our bodily organs.
Given fallen nature, it would be at least borderline sinful not to take sufficient precaution without adequate reasons--such as, for instance, the inability to afford it. I've known too many women into the earthy crunch mother-goddess Gaia mentality--most of which is driven by the Eve-like ego of wanting to be like God. Were it not for modern medicine, I would have been dead at the age of twelve. But modern medicine played a role in God's will that I survive past that time and have five children of my own.
You speak as though we should just eliminate modern medicine altogether--ala Christian Scientists.
But were you already in the hospital when you became sick/injured at age 12? No, you went there after there was a problem. Childbirth isn't inherently a problem. The chances of such a HUGE complication that she can't make it to the hospital in time to save a life are extremely slim. Do you have a doctor stand by every time you operate a power tool?
I agree there should be a knowledgeable person around to assist, but that doesn't have to be a doctor and there are women who have the knowledge of a midwife even if they aren't certified as such. I don't think the knowledgeable person should be the birthing mother herself, but that still isn't as ridiculous as some might think it to be.
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Ladislaus said:
Given fallen nature, it would be at least borderline sinful not to take sufficient precaution without adequate reasons--such as, for instance, the inability to afford it.
I think everyone agrees on this point.
The problem is that treadingwater is hinting at some kind of philosophical or pseudo-religious agenda for not having a hospital birth, and there isn't one. Though I will admit, doctors and nurses do seem to be becoming more and more incompetent, more and more cavalier and careless and greedy, more and more third-world, in short. The medical industry doesn't have that gleaming, polished professionalism that it used to have, or at least that I thought it had.
Any trust I had in the medical profession has been shaken to its timbers by this experience with my mom and with how they've been prescribing her anti-depressants so carelessly ( and I'm talking her general practitioner, not just her psych ). Alex also, who is taking care of her grandmother, says that her grandmother always ends up more sick if she has to stay in the hospital, and she thinks that old people die faster if you put them in professional care, which is hard to argue with. My grandpa died about a month after being put in a home.
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The problem is that treadingwater is hinting at some kind of philosophical or pseudo-religious agenda for not having a hospital birth, and there isn't one.
You don't need any reason to skip the hospital for a normal birth. The more you know about birthing in/out of a hospital, the more you'd agree that you should have a reason for wanting to go TO the hospital to give birth.
Birthing w/o a midwife is another story.
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Oops, that's what I meant.
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I am pregnant with my seventh child. It is my belief that God would not have left the fate of mankind in the hands of a flawed system. That our bodies instinctively know how to birth our babies. We are mammals in the basic sense horse's, cats, monkeys don't need an obstetrician to tell them when to push, a nurse to hold their legs, or a midwife to empower them. I am submitting to Gods will and design for motherhood trusting his plan for childbirth and letting my body give birth at home, alone.
Why am I posting this here? We are all "Catholics" trusting in Gods plan for us submitting to his will not our own. How far are we all willing to follow his lead? at what costs?
Ok Treadingwater-Ill bite on this thread for a bit.
Absolutely Yes, God did design most woman to be able to give birth quite naturally and without help. It is a beautiful thing.
We are all Catholics submitting to Gods will and not our own- so in essence, it doesnt really matter whether we give birth at the hosp, home, or alone, God alone gives life or allows it to pass.
The only thing you are leaving out is our God-given responsibility to do all in our power to protect and nuture our offspring (something animals dont have). That has to be up to the indiviual parent, what that responsibility entails, as far as childbirth. It comes down to YOU ensuring that you live up to Gods responsibility placed on you.
What do I personally think is the minimum? I think you should have a midwife 'on call' should you decide during labor that she may be of assistance before or after the birth.
You eat well (Brewers diet maybe?), and you take on at least your own medical eval. God gave us amazing tech. to avail ourselves to.
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I am pregnant with my seventh child. It is my belief that God would not have left the fate of mankind in the hands of a flawed system. That our bodies instinctively know how to birth our babies. We are mammals in the basic sense horse's, cats, monkeys don't need an obstetrician to tell them when to push, a nurse to hold their legs, or a midwife to empower them. I am submitting to Gods will and design for motherhood trusting his plan for childbirth and letting my body give birth at home, alone.
Why am I posting this here? We are all "Catholics" trusting in Gods plan for us submitting to his will not our own. How far are we all willing to follow his lead? at what costs?
Ok Treadingwater-Ill bite on this thread for a bit.
Absolutely Yes, God did design most woman to be able to give birth quite naturally and without help. It is a beautiful thing.
We are all Catholics submitting to Gods will and not our own- so in essence, it doesnt really matter whether we give birth at the hosp, home, or alone, God alone gives life or allows it to pass.
The only thing you are leaving out is our God-given responsibility to do all in our power to protect and nuture our offspring (something animals dont have). That has to be up to the indiviual parent, what that responsibility entails, as far as childbirth. It comes down to YOU ensuring that you live up to Gods responsibility placed on you.
What do I personally think is the minimum? I think you should have a midwife 'on call' should you decide during labor that she may be of assistance before or after the birth.
You eat well (Brewers diet maybe?), and you take on at least your own medical eval. God gave us amazing tech. to avail ourselves to.
Well said :applause:
I had three babies born that needed Neo-care. They would all be dead if I gave birth "by myself". And, I am one that NEVER goes to a doctor for myself, and I take care of all my children's ailments with herbs, etc. Still, I thank God for the doctors that were there when I had my six children.
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I do not believe that childbirth is by nature dangerous, our fear of the process is.
Women left alone in labor become completely in tune to their bodies, present in the moment. The presence of a birthing attendant deprives you of your focus instead of listening to your body your listening to their cues.
We all believe conception is a gift from God I know childbirth is too. Anyone who has given birth knows God is there in that moment. To say that childbirth isn't spiritual is ludicrous, labor is a deep meditation of prayer. Could you manage such an act surrounded by strangers disrupting your every thought, poking, prodding, robbing you of your dignity.
Yes childbirth comes with risk but so does life. We are all given tools to educate ourselves to lower or even eliminate risk, childbirth is no different.
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Women left alone in labor become completely in tune to their bodies, present in the moment. The presence of a birthing attendant deprives you of your focus instead of listening to your body your listening to their cues.
Would you agree that this is not the case with every woman? A woman who hasn't labored before would likely feel more comfortable with an assistant as she would be more free to labor without worry that something she was unable to handle might occur? The presence of an assistant can deprive you of focus or aid you in keeping your focus depending on the individual (and the assistant).
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Absolutely, if you fear being alone then your not ready. Fear leads to panic and no one can make rational decisions in that state.
I know women who gave birth to all their children alone. Could I have done it with my first, I don't know, if I had properly educated and prepared myself maybe.
But at the time I didn't know any other way than following an obstetricians lead. Its in their best interest if your ignorant to the process and willing to follow them blindly. That's partly my point as Catholic mothers we need to educate ourselves on childbirth and caring for our reproductive health. We can't make informed decisions if we are not completely informed.
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Yeah, I know the going into your body and staying aware of it while you are in labor. But you won't miss your cue. I would just get very short and sharp with those who interrupted me and they would leave me alone. I can see why you don't want the interruptions.
I can't figure out what you want of us, TreadingWater. If it is God's blessing, we can't help you. You'll have to get that direct from Him. ??????
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I thought she was just sharing with us as something for us all to think about. The only problem I see is the suggestion that a different choice than hers somehow shows a lack of trust in God.
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We all believe conception is a gift from God I know childbirth is too. Anyone who has given birth knows God is there in that moment. To say that childbirth isn't spiritual is ludicrous, labor is a deep meditation of prayer. Could you manage such an act surrounded by strangers disrupting your every thought, poking, prodding, robbing you of your dignity.
The fact that you mentioned disruptions, "poking" and "prodding" suggests you don't know what using a midwife is like.
As I mentioned before, we used a midwife for our 3rd child, so this isn't all theoretical for me. The midwife stayed in the other room for most of the labor -- it was very comforting for both of us, however, to have her there. She didn't check the cervix every set number of minutes, nor were any monitors used. It was done in a birth center bedroom, which had a completely home-like feel to it. We had the whole "house" to ourselves.
And knowing how to deliver a baby with shoulder dystochia is one thing -- being able to do it on YOURSELF is another story. Even if you could, you'd be in the half of 1% of women who have that much fortitude. Women, like men, are much softer these days.
For that matter, a real man should be theoretically be able to dig a bullet out of his own guts -- but few would have the "guts" to do it. Or, to pick a more realistic example, a man should be mature enough to be married at about 16 years old. Is that true anymore nowadays?
As many of us said -- having a 15 year old woman (hopefully knowledgeable about some aspects of birth and basic medicine) who is NOT in labor somewhere in the house is infinitely better than going it alone.
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I had a midwife for my last homebirth, her presence was at a minimum but a presence none the less.
I would love to believe I am an elite 1% but that is not the case. There a dozens of websites, forums, and discussion boards full of women who believe in giving birth without assistance and have done it successfully numerous times. I was disappointed to learn that so few of these women were catholic, every other faith was represented in much higher numbers.
I'am surprised by what hostility this post has created, we will have to agree to disagree.
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I had a midwife for my last homebirth, her presence was at a minimum but a presence none the less.
I would love to believe I am an elite 1% but that is not the case. There a dozens of websites, forums, and discussion boards full of women who believe in giving birth without assistance and have done it successfully numerous times. I was disappointed to learn that so few of these women were catholic, every other faith was represented in much higher numbers.
I'am surprised by what hostility this post has created, we will have to agree to disagree.
Interpreting concern for yourself and your child as hostility suggests that you are not thinking clearly.
You are taking an unnecessary risk and attempting to pass it off as faith. Do you fear a doctor or midwife? Or is it the expense?
What is the real reason for wanting to give birth alone? Because I don't believe it's "trust in God."
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Safer Birth in a Barn?
by Beth Barbeau
© 2007 Midwifery Today, Inc. All rights reserved.
[Editor's note: This article first appeared in Midwifery Today Issue 83, Autumn 2007.]
Our deeper understandings of birth can come to us from the most unexpected sources and at the most unanticipated times. One of my most visceral “light-bulb” experiences came in New Mexico in the early 1990s when I was taking a break from midwifery and selling health insurance to self-employed individuals.
One day I drove several hours to meet with the general manager of an immense horse farm, hoping to sell a large policy to cover his many farm hands. I ended up wandering through some of the buildings, searching for my appointment. I mentally noted as I passed that one of the stalls exuded energy that felt like birth. Peeking in, I found a swollen mare pacing restlessly in the afternoon quiet, deeply breathing and blowing.
We were in the middle of the insurance presentation about an hour later when an assistant breathlessly burst in, saying that “so and so” was foaling! The manager stood up immediately and said, “Do you want to see a foal born?” He was startled when I asked if it was the mare I had glimpsed earlier. When I shared that I had trained as a midwife and it just “felt and smelled of birth,” he brightened and lost his taciturn ways, suddenly eager to talk about what he loved.
Until the next few minutes I did not fully understand that I was in a very unusual place: a stud farm for some of the most valuable horses in the world. This particular unborn foal was worth about three million dollars and was expected to be of much greater value after birth because it shared lineage with two Triple Crown winners. The horseman explained what I was about to see as we hurried over. He was adamant about his instructions, stressing the careful attention to detail needed to protect the well-being of this babe of breath-taking value.
“Don’t let the mare see you; crouch here in the hallway where you can peek over the half wall of the foaling box—the stress of seeing strangers at this time could put the foal in danger!”
“The only person allowed near the mare is her familiar stable lad; even her vet is crouched as small as possible in the corner.” (And he was, hunched on his heels, silent and still, head and eyes downcast.)
“We keep the lights dimmed, because bright lights agitate and distract the laboring mare.”
“You’ll see that we’ve removed her halter and lead—you would never restrict the movement of a birthing mare; foals have been lost for less! She must be free to move any way she wants.”
“She’s been in this box stall (when not out to pasture) for weeks, because she must be in a familiar environment to birth smoothly.”
“There is her usual water and hay in the stall—never restrict their food in labor!”
“Don’t say a word. Any sound might disrupt the birth and a disruption puts the foal in danger.”
With these admonishments ringing in my ears, I crouched in the dim, silent passageway outside the birthing box with several others. We watched the mare birth a huge colt with grace, barely pausing in her pacing as he slid with a thump to the floor. All was quiet and still in the long minutes afterwards as the colt organized his breathing, gathered himself and finally staggered up. He was so unusually large and long-legged that he stood on his ankles, his cartilage too soft to support his weight. Still, the horseman was elated with the outcome, passing off the odd and worrisome appearance with a “give him time, he’ll work it out!”
Ironic, isn’t it? The protocols in the world of animal husbandry to protect an offspring at the time of birth—no strangers, dimmed lights, freedom of movement, familiar environment, unlimited nourishment, respectful quiet, no disruptions—are done without hesitation because to do otherwise invites “unexplained distress” or sudden demise of the offspring. These thoughtful conditions are the norm, along with careful observation to determine when to use the technological expertise in true emergencies. When we have veterinarians in our childbirth education classes, they always start to smile and nod when I tell this story. In fact, what did your mom tell you when you found the cat birthing kittens in the drawer? “Shhhhhhh!” And why? Because she MIGHT STOP GIVING BIRTH (AND move the kittens!). These are givens—instinctive givens, even, for animals of all descriptions!
Yet what are the “givens” for the human who births not in a barn, but in a “modern and advanced” hospital? In many cases, 100% the opposite! Usually a minimum of a dozen strangers pass through the world of the laboring mother in her first 12 hours in the hospital—security officer, patient transporter, triage secretary, admission clerk, triage nurse, resident and/or doctor on call, admitting nurse, first shift nurse, break nurse, additional nurse at delivery, doctor or midwife plus possibly students, anesthesiologist, pediatrician, etc. Bright lights in the triage and labor rooms are challenging to dim. Mothers are tethered to monitors or IV poles and are moved through a bright hall with unfamiliar sounds to a new room in a building devoted to illness/trauma that most have visited once briefly if at all. They receive poor quality “clear liquids only.” They are exposed to voices of others in the hall or chatting by the attendants during contractions and endless disruptions throughout! But then, do we ever find that we have an offspring experience “unexplained distress?” Of course, and at frightening rates! Yet, oddly, many of these disruptions are promoted as minor inconveniences or necessary to “protect” the baby.
Curiously, while veterinarians commonly have to defend interventions in light of the additional cost and the risks associated with interfering with nature, providers caring for human mothers within the medical system more commonly are forced to defend why they did NOT intervene! Consider the high rates of inductions, epidurals, artificial rupture of membranes, immediate cord cutting, cesareans and the vigorous defense necessary to fight for anything different, especially if time is involved (time to go into labor, to progress, to push, to allow the cord to stop pulsation or to get “done” bonding). I’ve recently seen outstanding CNMs and obstetricians sacrifice their own political reputations and suffer departmental reprimands for births with great outcomes where they protected the mothers’ yearning for privacy, allowed extended pushing time with great vital signs or, during a healthy normal birth, followed their intuition and honored the mother’s begging to check heart tones frequently by hand during pushing instead of what the mother considered the massive intrusion of wearing the monitor belt. Interventions are considered to be the ultimate protection from litigation in human care, yet they contribute mightily to the high rates of distress in mothers and babies!
In animal husbandry, the first line of defense for protecting the unborn is to protect and nurture the nutritional needs and comfort of the birthing female. In the case of institutionalized birth for humans, however, in spite of evidence to the contrary, the norm is to act as if the nutritional needs and the comfort of the birthing mothers are of concern to, at most, the marketing and public relations department! It’s an affront to common sense that as a society we are currently more accepting of the needs of foaling mares, whelping poodles and high-producing cows than of our birthing humans. From the high rates of fetal distress, meconium staining and breastfeeding problems, the consequences are clearly devastating to our infants, just as any decent horseman would predict.
Beth Barbeau, midwife and educator, began attending homebirths in 1979 as the 16-year-old babysitter for the “big kids.” She has taught Childbirth Education classes for over 25 years, and recently launched “A New Baby in the House” to meet the unique needs of adopting parents. A life-long interest in providing better support and resources to families after the six week visit led Beth this spring to open Indigo Forest Co.: Growing Healthy Lives, a family-focused store and studio in Ann Arbor, Michigan. She and her stunt choreographer husband, Christopher, are parents to two homebirthed boys, Jianmarco (7) and Marcellin (5).
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Am I guessing right, that all those nonCatholic women were praised for what they did?
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This doesn't say much as there were FOUR humans present including a vet and a midwife. :smirk:
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Am I guessing right, that all those nonCatholic women were praised for what they did?
I've read some stories like she mentions and the reactions are usually along the lines of "good for you, I could never do that" or "I wish the world didn't force women to resort to this."
I've not personally seen a forum where the practice of birthing alone is praised as outright superior to other choices. I'm sure there are individuals who believe so, but it wasn't the majority opinion anywhere I've seen.
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Some nuts who think like me....
http://www.unassistedchildbirth.com/
http://www.trustbirth.com/index.html
http://childbirth.amuchbetterway.com/
http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/287989/unassisted_childbirth_dispelling_myths.html?cat=25
http://rixarixa.blogspot.com/
http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/132292/a_guide_to_unassisted_childbirth.html?cat=52
http://www.birthjunkie.com/uc_stories.html
http://www.unassistedchildbirth.com/
http://heartsandhandss.com/2010/05/24/unassisted-birth-part-one/
http://spiritledbirth.blogspot.com/
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http://www.momlogic.com/2009/04/home_birth_advocates_baby_dies.php
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Fraser's "free birth" argument, which on the surface appears feminist, is actually the opposite. It doesn't empower women to take control of their own bodies. It sends them and their babies into the dark ages of medical care - where women give birth with no medical care at all and face the very real possibility of death as a consequence.
Read more: http://www.momlogic.com/2009/04/home_birth_advocates_baby_dies.php#ixzz0tKx3anUi
Hah - appears feminist. Then they throw in a shot at the "Dark Ages."
Well, the main motivation is clearly pride and rebellion - and perhaps irrational fears.
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A baby death at home is always caused by the selfishness and irresponsibility of the mother. A baby dies in the hospital no one would dare put such blame on the attendants.
No charges were ever made against the woman in question. She continues to run a wonderful website http://www.joyousbirth.info/.
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A baby death at home is always caused by the selfishness and irresponsibility of the mother. A baby dies in the hospital no one would dare put such blame on the attendants.
The difference is that doctors and nurses often have the skills and techniques to save a mother and child when dangerous situations come up. Something a lone woman does not have.
No charges were ever made against the woman in question. She continues to run a wonderful website http://www.joyousbirth.info/.
I don't see how a Catholic can call that wonderful.
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A baby death at home is always caused by the selfishness and irresponsibility of the mother. A baby dies in the hospital no one would dare put such blame on the attendants.
The difference is that doctors and nurses often have the skills and techniques to save a mother and child when dangerous situations come up. Something a lone woman does not have.
That's not always true and can be quite the opposite depending on the knowledge of the woman in question. But, yes, MOST women would not know as much as a doctor or nurse.
My question is who is following the advice of these websites? Is it women who do indeed have the knowledge and experience necessary or is it women who've read a few blogs but don't really know enough for this to legitimately be a prudent decision. I'd like to think it's only the first group, but throwing a bunch of information up on the Internet can be dangerous in terms of who reads this or that and then thinks they know it all.
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but a woman in labor is necessarily constrained by her condition Mater.
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but a woman in labor is necessarily constrained by her condition Mater.
Not necessarily. The biggest "inconvenience" would be catching the baby, but many home birthers do water births. Second would be simply being worn out by the process and unable to function. I was totally worn out with my last, but I get worn out just walking down the street, so I can't say as I'm anything close to typical in that respect. :smirk:
How do you think her condition would be restraining?
Just to clarify, I think it imprudent for ANY woman to give birth alone without someone else present who has sufficient knowledge of how to react in all situations. But, I don't think she's completely nuts for wanting to do so ... only a little nuts. :smile: ha ha
WANTING to go to a hospital without a specific complication requiring you to do so is more nutty imo.
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But, I don't think she's completely nuts for wanting to do so ... only a little nuts. :smile: ha ha
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Thanks, aren't we all just a little nuts? :laugh1:
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But, I don't think she's completely nuts for wanting to do so ... only a little nuts. :smile: ha ha
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Thanks, aren't we all just a little nuts? :laugh1:
You bet! :wink:
So, when are you due?
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Came across this article says it all better than I can...
What Does the Bible Say About Childbirth?
"God blessed them and said to them, 'Be fruitful and increase in number. Fill the earth and subdue it.' " (Genesis 1:28). Obviously childbirth was an important and intended function for humans.
Genesis chapter 3 tells us the story of mankind's disobedience to God, and his banishment from paradise. It is from this passage that many MISUNDERSTANDINGS of childbirth have arisen.
In the figurative creation story, Genesis 3:14 says, "So the Lord God said to the serpent, 'Because you have done this, "cursed are you above all livestock and all wild animals." You will crawl on your belly and you will eat dust all the days of your life. And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel."
Not only did God curse the serpent, but he also cursed the ground. Verse 17 says, "...cursed is the ground because of you; through painful toil you will eat of it all the days of your life."
Because of the serpent's deception, he was cursed. The ground was also cursed. But man and woman were never cursed! Because of their disobedience, God changed the circuмstances they would have to live under. He made everything more difficult. Instead of simply picking fruit off of trees that were flourishing, Adam would have to do hard work to get his food. Instead of childbirth being easy and effortless, there would be some hard work involved there as well. The reason for this, however, was not because man and woman were cursed, but because they would buy into the deception and lies that would keep them from exercising their God's ordained authority to have dominion over the earth.
Genesis 3:16 says, "I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing; with pain will you give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you."
Now the misunderstanding comes from the word "pain" in this verse, which has been mistranslated. This word is NOT referring to physical pain. It is referring to hard work and emotional travail. The same word translated "pain" in the Greek Septuagint version of Genesis 3:16 is also used in Luke 22:45, and this helps to give us an idea of its true meaning.
"When he rose from prayer and went back
to the disciples, he found them asleep,
exhausted from sorrow."
The word "sorrow" in this verse is the same word translated "pain" in Genesis 3:16. The apostles had not been enduring any physical pain in the garden of Gethsemane; they were exhausted from worrying about Jesus' impending death on the cross. They had worked themselves up into an emotional frenzy that had drained them of their strength and incapacitated them. Does that sound like what happens to a woman in labor?
Because the sensations of childbirth are strange to a woman, and because she has not properly prepared herself for what it will be like, she often becomes fearful. Because she does not know how to cope with these new sensations, she often works herself up into quite an emotional state, and comes to dread and fear each contraction. This creates what has been called the Fear-Tension-Pain cycle.
Imagine that you have to get up and speak in front of a large audience of people. The auditorium is filled, and you are waiting to go out and deliver your message. What might be happening in your body at that time? What physical sensations might you feel?
Butterflies in stomach
Knees shaking
Sweaty palms
Heart racing
Tension in neck and shoulders
Muscle Pain
Queasy stomach
Shortness of breath
Feeling faint
All of these are the body's way of reacting to fear. Nearly all women experience these same sensations during childbirth - not because they are having a baby, but because these sensations are part of a fear reaction. Because the sensations of childbirth are new to a woman and she is confused, she does not realize they are due to her own fear reaction.
God never cursed man or woman. In the figurative creation story, He did curse the serpent and the ground. But he gave man & woman dominion over the earth, and power over deception by giving them direct, intuitive access to the wisdom of the ages, which provides direction in every situation.
You see, even though God did not "curse" woman with pain in childbirth, the circulation of this figurative creation story has facilitated a change in the physical nature of the world we live in. He said two things would happen: woman would have much mental and emotional discomfort (sorrow) in childbirth, and he also said that husbands would try to rule over their wives. These two things were not God's will for marriage and childbirth, they were a result of deception. Because we create our own reality , the circulation of this figurative creation-and-fall story has caused those who believe it to create a situation in which there is significant pain during the childbirth process. It has also caused a situation in which men feel justified in dominating women, and women feel forced to accept this domination. Also, due to the fact that before the flood there was superior nutrition which caused childbirth to be painless, because the uterus was receiving all the nutrients it needed to function properly, now that the flood has destroyed the high nutrient content of the foods we eat, unless women are aware and make sure to provide a high level of nutrition during pregnancy, they will probably have pain. It is not inevitable, and can be prevented.
When husbands and wives seek God's will for their marriage, there will be no adversarial relationship, no one person ruling another. By the same token, when women seek God's way of giving birth, there will be no pain! Evil, pain, suffering, disease....we have the power to do away with them, through the teachings of Jesus Christ.
"Surely he took up our infirmities and carried our sorrows, yet we considered him stricken by God, smitten by him, and afflicted. But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed." Isaiah 53:4-5
We are able to overcome pain, deception, and obstacles the same way Jesus did - by realizing our inherent power which comes from God, and by changing our belief about the situation we are in. His punishment brings us peace because we know that, just as he was delivered from the pain and suffering of the cross, we can also be delivered from our pain and suffering. Jesus did suffer on the cross, but he did not die there as many Christian teachers suggest. There is much historical evidence, from the Dead Sea Scrolls and other sources, that Jesus was delivered from eventual death on the cross and went on to teach in other countries, to other cultures. He died and was buried in India, along with Mary his mother. Jesus knew at the time he went to the cross that a plan would be put in place which would deliver him, and he was able to stabalize his physical condition so that he would not die before the plan was carried out. There are many reasons why he went through this horrendous physical torture, but one of them was to show us that nothing is impossible to us. Even though we make mistakes, missing the mark, if we follow his teachings, we can reverse our sickness, negative emotional states, and any punishment imposed by self or others. Changing our lives is within our power, just as it was within Jesus' power as the most spiritually evolved human that ever lived.
Incidentally, the "sorrows" in the above verse which Jesus took upon himself are the same word translated "pain" in Genesis 3:16 and "sorrow" in Luke 22:45. So that ties it all together.
Barring some kind of physical obstruction, injury, or other physical complication, pain in childbirth can be virtually eliminated with proper preparation for birth, by providing excellent nutrition, by accepting that the body knows how to give birth, and realizing that pain is either the result of the fear response, or is the body's way of encouraging us to change our physical circuмstances so as to eliminate the pain and the cause of it. We can use the pain, if it occurs, as a guide, knowing that it is directing us toward a solution. And the solution must begin in our own minds.
How Did Women Give Birth In The Bible?
Exodus 1:15-21 tells us, "The king of Egypt said to the Hebrew midwives,whose names were Shiphrah and Puah, 'When you help the Hebrew women in childbirth and observe them on the delivery stool, if it is a boy, kill him; but if it is a girl, let her live.' The midwives, however, feared God and did not do what the king of Egypt had told them to do; they let the boys live. Then the king of Egypt summoned the midwives and asked them, 'Why have you done this? Why have you let the boys live?' The midwives answered Pharoah, 'Hebrew women are not like Egyptian women; they are vigorous and give birth before the midwives arrive.' So God was kind to the midwives and the people increased and became even more numerous. And because the midwives feared God, he gave them families of their own."
The midwives themselves said it best - "Hebrew women are not like Egyptian women." Because the Hebrew women feared God, their births were somehow different. Not only did God bless their births spiritually, but their birth practices were different. Egyptian women who were used to lying around and being waited on hand and foot gave birth in the same manner, passively lying on a bed, enduring the experience. Hebrew women, according to this passage, were vigorous throughout their births, and gave birth often with no help from anyone before the midwife arrived, or gave birth in an upright position on a birth stool if the midwife got there before the birth took place. It also stated that, even if the midwife did arrive in time for the birth, that her task was simply to "observe" them on the birth stool. She was a trained observer who watched for difficulties, but otherwise stayed out of the way. For centuries, this is the way all women of faith gave birth.
It seems clear that having a successful, victorious childbirth experience depends upon two main factors:
1. Learning to recognize and defeat the deceptions of childbirth.
2. Learning to give birth in the simple, vigorous, and active
way that God intended.
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Giving birth without proper assistance is a grievous sin.
May God have mercy on you and your child.
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Do you have a source or proof to backup your allegations?
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I do not believe that childbirth is by nature dangerous, our fear of the process is.
Women left alone in labor become completely in tune to their bodies, present in the moment. The presence of a birthing attendant deprives you of your focus instead of listening to your body your listening to their cues.
We all believe conception is a gift from God I know childbirth is too. Anyone who has given birth knows God is there in that moment. To say that childbirth isn't spiritual is ludicrous, labor is a deep meditation of prayer. Could you manage such an act surrounded by strangers disrupting your every thought, poking, prodding, robbing you of your dignity.
Yes childbirth comes with risk but so does life. We are all given tools to educate ourselves to lower or even eliminate risk, childbirth is no different.
Oh my gosh, this thread scares me a little. Not because of a fear of childbirth but because of a fear of extremes. The bolded is simply not true. Perhaps in the Garden of Eden childbirth was not dangerous. However we live in the real world now and God only knows how many women throughout history have lost their lives to childbirth.
What bible was this latest text taken from? This cannot be a Catholic article, is it? These people are clearly denying the tangible consequences of original sin on so many levels and trying to attribute them to some sort of psychology.
The reason you are finding that most Catholic women will not go to this extreme is because they determine virtue to be virtuous only in moderation. You won't find this kind of psycho-babble among many Catholics. Does it help to eat well, rest, detox, exercise etc... absolutely. Does it help to try and be calm and prepared for the event? Absolutely. Can some women safely give birth at home? Absolutely. Is it wise not to have a plan B? No.
Whether you like to admit it or not, a woman IS in danger during childbirth, and so is her child (as the rest of the family is in danger of losing their wife, child, mother and sibling). All protestant denials aside, this is the nature of original sin and its consequences. There are varying degrees of danger from next to none to death, and therefore varying degrees of intervention (of which I agree many women now have too much), but it is a dangerous undertaking, period. To say that all those tangible symptoms of trauma during childbirth are all in a woman's head is insulting at best. There is fear for a reason.
The other serious problem I have with that article is the insinuation that a women's problems in childbirth mean that they are somehow lacking in God's grace. We cannot compare the way God treated the Hebrews in the OT with the way He operates with us now. He was much more visible to them in different ways than how He is with us now. I trust in God. As such God provided a very good team of specialists who found out that my son had complications in utero. He also provided a very good hospital and surgeon when I 100% HAD to have a c-section or lose my son. I wanted to go as naturally as possible, stay home as long as possible, use as few drugs as possible, maybe even do a water birth. However, God very clearly wanted a different kind of resignation to a different Will.
I absolutely understand and agree that too many women use too much intervention unnecessarily these days, and don't do enough to draw from their natural strength, however that does nothing to discount intervention when it IS necessary. And the truth is that we never know if/when it will be necessary. It is our duty to be prudent in our considerations of childbirth especially when there could be two lives on the line.
There is a very thin line between trusting and testing God, as Our Lord Himself attested to when He refused to jump from the pinnacle at satan's tempting. Not having a Plan B or at least an assistant during a home-based childbirth falls in that category.
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Hire a midwife. Beware of pride. God Bless.
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Hire a midwife. Beware of pride. God Bless.
I agree with Matto, Mater and others, a midwife is necessary for a home birth. Women have always had other women to assist at the birth of a child. It's good to put our trust in God, but God trusts in us to use our free will to make informed decisions. I always wanted to have a home birth, but it was more difficult at the time I had my children to find a certified midwife. It is wise to have someone who knows about assisting at child birth just on the off chance there is a complication. It would be a tragedy to lose your child due to a complication that could have been prevented with someone nearby to help. God Bless
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As a one who has no experience or information, I don't presume to challenge or question any link or information posted here. Nor I can distinguish between true science and tricks of some doctors. So it is just a question:
Is it true that there is a certain form of defect in babies, which can be diagnosed only by a blood test, and that they can prevent a subsequent mental retardation if they give an injection to the newborn in the first two hours after birth?
I wonder if it is true, and if true how much is the possibilty? If it is 0.0000001% then it doesn't worth attention, if 2% then yes.
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In case of any true emergency I would call an ambulance, which is what a midwife would do.
I don't know what complication you think a midwife can save you from that you can't do yourself? Anyone tell me so I can educate myself better to prepare for this upcoming disaster.
I could easily hire a midwife but why would I hire someone to create panic? If you look hard enough you can always find something to worry about. What good are we as patients if we do not provide them with an opportunity to use their skills.
It is not my pride that has brought me to this choice but a humble need for peace in birth. I understand that most of you believe that childbirth by nature is dangerous, I believe the interference of humans is what is dangerous.
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Is it true that there is a certain form of defect in babies, which can be diagnosed only by a blood test, and that they can prevent a subsequent mental retardation if they give an injection to the newborn in the first two hours after birth?
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It is true that many defects can only be determined through a blood test. No there is no shot to cure mental retardation.
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I am still curious about where you got that article and that interpretation of original sin and its consequences.
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No there is no shot to cure mental retardation.
Is that so? With all the scientific inventions nowadays, I wonder why medical scientists can't provide one yet.
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I could easily hire a midwife but why would I hire someone to create panic? If you look hard enough you can always find something to worry about. What good are we as patients if we do not provide them with an opportunity to use their skills.
Have you gotten this impression from an actual midwife? A fundamental objective in midwifery today is to avoid interference with the natural birthing process. If you really know a midwife who goes out of her way to "create panic", then she's very poor at what she does and you should look again.
I've heard this complaint numerous times of doctors, but a midwife's "value" is in being there when needed and being out of the way when not.
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No there is no shot to cure mental retardation.
Is that so? With all the scientific inventions nowadays, I wonder why medical scientists can't provide one yet.
as a disability examiner, let me take a shot at it-irreversible brain damage!!!
Some things can be learned, but if there is neuro, chemical death to brain, likely, no reversal, shy of course, of a miracle!
said MR person should be loved, supported, corrrected when need be an helped in any way, including job training,etc...
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Have you gotten this impression from an actual midwife? A fundamental objective in midwifery today is to avoid interference with the natural birthing process. If you really know a midwife who goes out of her way to "create panic", then she's very poor at what she does and you should look again.
I've heard this complaint numerous times of doctors, but a midwife's "value" is in being there when needed and being out of the way when not.
At this point in my life no matter who I see I am labeled high risk. I am 30, (to old), more than 4 children (to many babies), previous c-section, and I have had numerous so called could be disasters, breech, polyhydramnios, 2 vessel cord. Yes my last midwife was hands off during my delivery but they have to obey the laws of our state if any thing abnormal comes up during pregnancy, which of course it will, see list, they will not deliver you at home. In previous pregnancies I have put more time and energy into reassuring those "caring for me" that I could deliver this baby safely I had very little left for myself. This pregnancy has been peaceful and stress free, I would have done it with my fifth baby but it took my husband longer to accept the safety in birth.
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Have you gotten this impression from an actual midwife? A fundamental objective in midwifery today is to avoid interference with the natural birthing process. If you really know a midwife who goes out of her way to "create panic", then she's very poor at what she does and you should look again.
I've heard this complaint numerous times of doctors, but a midwife's "value" is in being there when needed and being out of the way when not.
At this point in my life no matter who I see I am labeled high risk. I am 30, (to old), more than 4 children (to many babies), previous c-section, and I have had numerous so called could be disasters, breech, polyhydramnios, 2 vessel cord. Yes my last midwife was hands off during my delivery but they have to obey the laws of our state if any thing abnormal comes up during pregnancy, which of course it will, see list, they will not deliver you at home. In previous pregnancies I have put more time and energy into reassuring those "caring for me" that I could deliver this baby safely I had very little left for myself. This pregnancy has been peaceful and stress free, I would have done it with my fifth baby but it took my husband longer to accept the safety in birth.
I do understand what you mean... with my last, at about 38 1/2 weeks, my blood pressure was measuring high. With a "normal" patient, the midwife would have suggested some strong remedies to encourage labor, but with 2 prev c-sec, I wasn't "normal". She was forced to refer me to a doctor. The doctor made me feel :really-mad2: with all of her scare tactics which I certainly didn't need. Fortunately for me, my blood pressure began reading normal again and stayed that way for the last 2 weeks.
But again, this certainly isn't an example of something you can't diagnose and take care of yourself -- refering yourself to a doctor if necessary.
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After all of her other babies, Treading Water probably has a good sense of what to do, and how to do it.
I have known several women who did home births. FWIW their kids are all super-smart. They all LOVED giving birth at home; they were well attuned to their bodies and so forth.
You just need to have your little birthing nest all good to go, something for suction or to deliver oxygen just in case. And some good wine they say.
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As a one who has no experience or information, I don't presume to challenge or question any link or information posted here. Nor I can distinguish between true science and tricks of some doctors. So it is just a question:
Is it true that there is a certain form of defect in babies, which can be diagnosed only by a blood test, and that they can prevent a subsequent mental retardation if they give an injection to the newborn in the first two hours after birth?
I wonder if it is true, and if true how much is the possibilty? If it is 0.0000001% then it doesn't worth attention, if 2% then yes.
I don't know if Spouse means injection, but I keep wondering if she isn't talking about an RH negative mother?
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After all of her other babies, Treading Water probably has a good sense of what to do, and how to do it.
I have known several women who did home births. FWIW their kids are all super-smart. They all LOVED giving birth at home; they were well attuned to their bodies and so forth.
You just need to have your little birthing nest all good to go, something for suction or to deliver oxygen just in case. And some good wine they say.
Thanks Elizabeth, I second the wine better than an epidural.
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I thought about this thread as I read this, so I thought I'd share... this is a home birth story with 2 midwives + hubby (& kids?) present. I don't know what percentage of women experience hemmorage after birth, but I can't imagine her having gone through these things with just her and hubby.
OTOH, do you suppose the herbs the midwives gave her late in labor compounded the problem?
Bringing you here - Part II
Just as I anticipated, contractions started coming regularly about an hour after my water broke. It felt just like your sister Allison's birth, with one really strong wave followed by one not so strong (her water was broken for me and labor started within an hour). Your Dad stayed with me the whole time, rubbing my back, talking to me - wanting me to treasure this last labor and birth. His presence meant so much to me this time. Everytime he left the room, my contractions would lighten up and when he was holding my hand they felt like we were making good progress. The birth ball was the most comfortable place to be, although I knew I wanted to try for another water birth. So after a few hours of bouncing on the ball and relaxing through the contractions with my hypnobirthing, we called the midwives to say I was starting to get uncomfortable and wanted to get into the tub. Your Dad ran the tub for me, but then I just wanted to stay on the birthing ball. Amber (one of our midwives) arrived quickly (she's been present for my last three births) and checked on your heartbeat. It was much lower than our last appointment and I could tell that you were moving much lower. Hurray - we were making progress!
I finally decided to try the water and it felt so good to get in the tub. I moved around, trying to get in a good position to help you move down. The hypnobirthing cd played in the background and I giggled every time it said " you are a beautiful woman"..because your Dad was right by my side listening with me. The midwives left us to labor on our own, only coming in to check periodically on your heart beat - which stayed strong throughout labor. I'm not sure how much time had passed at this point, but it finally felt really good to bear down a little with each contraction so I knew it was close or I was almost dilated fully. Amber checked me per my request and I was at a 9 with a lip...this is where I always get before asking her to check! She tried to hold the lip back so I could push through it, but my contractions were too far apart to hold down to keep you from slipping back upwards. You would just rise back up between them. So Joani (my other wonderful midwife), gave me some herbs to pick up the pace. It worked, but I just couldn't position myself right in the tub and so I wanted to get out thinking if I was more vertical, then gravity might help me.
As soon as I got out of the tub, the herbs kicked in and I could hardly move through the contractions. I lost all my focus from the hypnobirthing and couldn't get it back as hard as I tried. With every contraction I just fell to my knees in pain and I couldn't get back on top of them. The hypnobirthing was out the window at this point. I made it to the side of my bed and just leaned over the mattress with each contraction, pushing with each one as my body took over. My mind said, no more, make it stop...and please just call the hospital to arrange for a c-section..and I'm too old for this!
But it didn't stop and my encouraging team of Amber, Joani and your Dad said I could do it....I didn't believe them at the time. The fact that you were probably very big, likely bigger than your sister Abbey (10.3lbs) was holding me back and I just couldn't seem to let go. Joani pushed on the side of my hips with each contraction and that seemed to help me make progress a little. Finally, Amber suggested that I lay down on the bed, flat on my back...I thought she must be out of her mind to suggest that, but I was willing to try anything to make the hurting stop. Sure enough, with the help of everyone (literally), your Dad on one leg, Joani on the other and Amber coaxing from within, your head was visible. Your Dad said you had lots of hair! I pushed with all my might and finally felt the ring of fire...yay! We were almost there. They asked me to stop pushing so I could stretch and it was so hard not to push. They said, your head would slide out by itself if I just stopped pushing so I did and it did. The shoulders were a little tricky, but nothing like how Abbey was stuck.
Baby Boy, you entered the world at 2:26pm and were put on my chest. All blue and gray, you took a while to take your first breath as I rubbed your back and talked to you - welcoming you into the world and our family. Finally, that precious moment arrived and you breathed in life, let out the tiniest of a cry and started to pink up. What a happy moment and I was so relieved that it was finally over - or so I hoped.
Bringing you here - Part III
Before I finish our story, I want you to know a little bit about how I view pregnancy and birth. Being pregnant is an amazing, miraculous event and something I will cherish the rest of my life. I view birth as a normal process, not an illness and thus I have chosen to have midwives as part of my birthing team and to have my baby at home. There is nothing more wonderful than being at home during labor and being tucked into my own bed after birth with my new baby. The whole family gets to be a part of the process and to bond with the baby shortly after birth.
My big, beautiful baby boy, you were finally born! You were purple and blue and took a little long to take that first breath. But when you did, I felt my body relax completely.
Unfortunately, it didn't end there with a beautiful birth. You still didn't even have a name yet. As you waited to take that first breath, I started to hemmorage. I felt the gushes come one right after the other as Amber had me push the placenta out quickly as they clamped the cord. I could feel the blood gushing from my body in spurts and felt my midwife jump into action. I could hear the urgency in her voice as they shot me with pitocin several times - 7 times I think - and something else (methrogen?) a few times, plus the continual massage of my uterus (which was so painful! - it should be called torture instead of a massage). We did what was neccessary.
The bleeding was under control finally, but we decided to call the EMTs to come start an IV to get fluids back into me quickly. It was probably a good thing that I was flat on my back during the birth because I would have passed out from the blood loss if I had to be moved (like I did with Abbey's birth). They estimated I lost about 6 pints of blood - oh why, did this keep happening to me?
We eventually declined the hospital transport from the EMTs as I had stablized and the bleeding was under control. I was able to nurse you, our new baby boy and hold you while I ate some food. But I was pretty weak and worn out and it was hard to position you. Then the midwives took you to look you over and get your measurements. Such a big boy - all of 10 lbs, 10 oz and 22 3/4 inches long! What a big boy! The biggest baby yet our midwives have delivered (it used to be Abbey - but you beat her...we didn't need to break a record you know?!) Your sisters all got to look at you and hold you after that while I tried to rest.
Our midwives finally were able to leave around 5pm and we snuggled in bed with our sweet new baby. You had the cutest little fuzzy newborn ears but you were also quite bruised from the birth. What a day for the both of us!
It wasn't over yet..... by 8pm, I could tell my bleeding was starting to pick back up some, not bad, but definitely increasing so we called the midwife, Amber, to come back. I was getting nervous about making it through the night and I also had to go pee, but just couldn't seem to do it in my bed on a pad or in a bed pan which they would have preferred I do. Talk about a mental thing! When she arrived, Amber and your Dad decided to carry me to the bathroom so I could go. I was scared to get up, but I had to go bad and it was starting to hurt! Luckily, I was able to go easily once on the potty, but then I started to feel really bad and I told Amber so. The next thing I knew, I was in bed again waking up. I had passed out again and I just started crying. I promised Jeff I would do everything not to have this happen again...and then it did. I just wanted to get up and take care of my baby, but I couldn't.
The EMTs were called back as I was waking up and I could hear your Dad with them on the phone. I could see the panic in his face and hear it in his voice as well as Amber's. I had passed a huge clot when they picked me up too...it may have been leftover placenta. The EMTs arrived again as did my Mom. It was time to go to the hospital so the nurses could take care of me the rest of the night. The girls were crying and scared for their Mom and I was crying too.
We were blessed with strong and kind EMTs who treated us with the best care. As they took me out, I could see one of them kneeling in the hallway with my girls. He came out later to the ambulance to tell me that the girls were upset, but he thought he was able to calm them down. He said, everything would be okay.
As I layed in the ambulance surrounded by about 5 big EMTs, I told them they needed to tell me their names since my baby didn't have a name yet. The one who had talked to the girls, shouted out "Brett!". A couple of others told me their names too and some of their sons names.
Once at the hospital, we were finally settled into our room by 3am. Our emergency room visit was scary and long, filled with a dr who didn't want to listen to us about the care I needed. I felt very violated by him and sad that we had to be there. So much for the rest we had hoped for. The nurses kept coming in and out all night long. I just wanted to go home by the morning so I could sleep at this point. Your Dad stayed with me so that you could stay as well.
Things had calmed down by the morning and we had a better doctor seeing us but they wanted to keep us there another night. The IV of pitocin was still going, the methrogen pills, the pain pills, the vitamins, the stool softener...I was so tired of it. My bleeding was all but over and still they kept the drugs flowing and the catheter inserted even though I could walk down the hall. I had to prove myself before they would do anything. So walked I did - even in the middle of the night the nurse came to get me to take a walk down the hall to see if I could do it without passing out. I would do anything to go home, so I walked.
Another night of being woken up by different nurses, one to give me meds, one to take my stats, one to take my blood (like I hadn't lost enough!). I had to educate them on co-sleeping and explain myself over and over (like a mother of 6 didn't know what to do with a new baby). I was in tears the next morning from exhaustion. All I wanted to do was nurse my new baby and that is all you wanted to do. I could hear your swallowing and knew that you would be a nursing champ.
After two nights, we were finally released and went home as fast as we could. They tried to shower us with sample bags of formula and we left them right there in the room. I walked out with my baby and we headed for home where our beautiful girls were waiting for us. My cousin had come down from Dallas to help with the girls and so she and my Mom were also there. They all greeted us with welcome home signs and a delicious meal - I was so hungry - the hospital food was just awful. We were finally tucked into our own bed at home again and I layed you on my chest as we snuggled in together.
Each birth is different and a treasure, so it happened the way it was supposed to happen and in the end we had you, our sweet baby boy. We were so happy that you were finally here!
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Tragedies certainly occur during birth and this could have been one of them.
This story leaves me with many questions.
Is this a healthy woman?
Why are her babies big? gestational diabetes? gains to much weight during pregnancy?
What herbs did they give her? and why?
Does she have a history of post-partum hemmorage?
I read through this story many times ( I enjoy reading birth stories) several things struck me as problematic. The use of herbs late in labor when there wasn't distress or an actual need. It sounds like baby wasn't descending properly possible shoulder dystocia? He was obviously very stuck and the use of the herbs made labor unmanageable for her. She lost her focus and fear set in causing her to panic.
I am not advocate for hypnobirthing putting all your focus into not feeling, trying to disappear from your labor. Dosen't seem logical to me, when you can't hide from the contractions then what, your anxiety heightens.
I also DO NOT LIKE when the last bit cervical lip is pushed back its unpleasant, distracting, and attempts to rush the process.
The writer never states what happened why the hemmorage? Did the midwives pull on the umbilical cord causing it to detach early causing the hemmorage?
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I don't really know the person in the story, but I have met her once and she has some activity on her personal blog, so I can answer a couple of your questions just to flesh out the scenario a bit...
She seems to be a healthy woman ... tall and slender. She's of the baby wearing, cloth diapering, homeschooling, etc sort and I know they aren't opposed to visits to the local farms for fresh produce and whatnot.
I was wondering about why her babies are big myself (being prone to that in this family as well with kiddos at 8,15; 9,3; and 9,15). She mentioned on her blog that she stayed away from any/all sweets throughout this pregnanacy until the last week when they went out for cupcakes. This big boy was also born 3 days before his due date ... good thing he came early! ; )
I think she mentioned in this story that she experienced hemmorage with her 5th birth as well. I'll have to go backward on her blog and see if I can find that story as I only met her about a year ago.
I prefer to find out that such things are at least somewhat avoidable complications. : )
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homemade cartoons about "medical" childbirth, funny or sad, not sure but somewhat amusing.
Emergency c-section http://www.xtranormal.com/watch/7000271/
Epidural risks http://www.xtranormal.com/watch/7019631/
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No there is no shot to cure mental retardation.
Is that so? With all the scientific inventions nowadays, I wonder why medical scientists can't provide one yet.
as a disability examiner, let me take a shot at it-irreversible brain damage!!!
Some things can be learned, but if there is neuro, chemical death to brain, likely, no reversal, shy of course, of a miracle!
said MR person should be loved, supported, corrrected when need be an helped in any way, including job training,etc...
Sometimes a newborn has something too much or too little in his blood that if left unnoticed will cause retardation. For example not having phenile alanin causes phenile ketonory. It can be migitated or prevented if the newborn undergose a test and then is given speacial milks.
Still I wonder whether it is true science....
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My son was born at home into his fathers hands at 7:05 pm Saturday February 12. Hes a healthy 9lb 4oz and 21 inches.
It was amazing to share the simplicity and wonder of birth with my family.
We are truly thankful for all the blessings God has given us.
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My son was born at home into his fathers hands at 7:05 pm Saturday February 12. Hes a healthy 9lb 4oz and 21 inches.
It was amazing to share the simplicity and wonder of birth with my family.
We are truly thankful for all the blessings God has given us.
Congratulations on the new arrival!
:rahrah:
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My son was born at home into his fathers hands at 7:05 pm Saturday February 12. Hes a healthy 9lb 4oz and 21 inches.
It was amazing to share the simplicity and wonder of birth with my family.
We are truly thankful for all the blessings God has given us.
A congrats from me as well.
:applause:
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Looks like Im a little late for this discussion. Congrats on your seventh Im expecting the sixth in July. Just wanted to say I had my 4th at home with a good friend to get me what I wanted for supplies. I was really convicted of a homebirth and didnt care for the pushy nurses or in a rush doctors. Ive since moved to another province (canada) so we access to alot of midwives where we are. So did my first waterbirth and that was great and she was great. She simply left me alone till I had the baby then was there to catch the baby.
Get lots of rest, God Bless your Family
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My son was born at home into his fathers hands at 7:05 pm Saturday February 12. Hes a healthy 9lb 4oz and 21 inches.
It was amazing to share the simplicity and wonder of birth with my family.
We are truly thankful for all the blessings God has given us.
Congratulations! :wine-drinking:
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I trust and pray that mother and baby are doing well. Congratulations and many blessings to you all!