Author Topic: Trusting God (Read 14098 times)

MaterDominici · « **Reply #15 on:** June 27, 2010, 11:46:57 PM »

Quote from: MyrnaM

Back in the "olden days" when women died giving birth, that was the reason, bleeding to death.

I was going to say that as well. It's the most common cause for the deaths in the book I mentioned I was reading.

Most of those deaths occurred days after the complication so even birthing at home alone likely wouldn't involve much risk of life for the mother. (Presuming, of course, you are not ENTIRELY alone.)

MaterDominici · « **Reply #16 on:** June 28, 2010, 12:00:20 AM »

I totally agree that a doctor should not be a primary source of care for expecting mothers.

When I referred to delivering alone out of necessity, here is what I was thinking... Those I've read of who have delivered alone (with some assistance from hubby) were strong believers in the use of midwives and the avoidance of hospitals for birth. But, they lived in a state were midwives were not legal. A few lived close enough to a state line that they traveled into a neighboring state and gave birth in a hotel room, but others chose to go it alone.

Presuming they themselves knew enough about childbirth (not merely personal experience, but actual knowledge of various issues that could arise) I think they were better off than going to a hospital where their ability to give birth would be impeded by modern medicine.

treadingwater · « **Reply #17 on:** June 28, 2010, 08:21:29 AM »

The midwives of scripture you speak of are not the trained medical professionals of today, merely women who had children who were well versed in the art of childbirth. By these standards I could call myself a midwife. I know what positions to use to deliver a baby with shoulder dystocia, a breech or posterior presentation. What herbs to use to deliver a delayed placenta, or to stop a hemorrhage. How to perform infant cpr, clear their airway after delivery.I know how to care for myself and baby post-partum.
I have had a midwife attended homebirth, her and I are still friendly. I learned a lot from our partnership, but her involvement was also a hindrance another persons opinions and politics to consider.
In the event of a real emergency a midwife is going to call 911 something my husband or daughter could do.
I am not walking blindly through life. Perhaps my way is the more difficult path to follow anything worth having is worth the effort. We are all given the tools to care for ourselves its just easier to put the risk and responsibility on someone else.

Congratulations to your wife for having a successful birth after 2 c-sections a great accomplishment.

Trinity · « **Reply #18 on:** June 28, 2010, 09:19:39 AM »

Danger can arrive quickly in child birth. No matter how much you know, a trained person probably knows better. Don't get your back up, Treadingwater. Can't you see we are concerned about your welfare and that of your child.

MaterDominici · « **Reply #19 on:** June 28, 2010, 02:04:49 PM »

Quote from: treadingwater

The midwives of scripture you speak of are not the trained medical professionals of today, merely women who had children who were well versed in the art of childbirth. By these standards I could call myself a midwife. I know what positions to use to deliver a baby with shoulder dystocia, a breech or posterior presentation. What herbs to use to deliver a delayed placenta, or to stop a hemorrhage. How to perform infant cpr, clear their airway after delivery.I know how to care for myself and baby post-partum.

Some women have the knowledge (yes, you essentially ARE a midwife) and level-headedness (hard to get worked up about labor when you've done it 3/4/5/6... times before) to be equipped for laboring on their own. You certainly sound like one of those women. The majority of women could not do this and even some who could wouldn't necessarily have on hand things which might be needed in an emergency. Sure, some of these things aren't 100% necessary, but I know if my infant weren't breathing well, I'd want to have oxygen on hand.

I still wouldn't choose this path just "because I can" or suggest that having a professional (could be another mother or even your husband as long as he knows as much as you do) on hand is somehow not trusting enough in God.

Why not find a midwife whose opinions you agree with in order to eliminate the possible hinderance? The midwife I last worked with was very low-key. She answered questions and told me anything I needed to do, but otherwise left me alone until her participation was needed. (I don't know as much as you about delivering a baby. :smile:)

dabollig · « **Reply #20 on:** June 30, 2010, 10:28:23 PM »

Ok, you make an excellent point that mammals are able to birth, however you missed the fact that as bipedial mammals we are in fact not at best design for birthing without serious possible complications. It is well scientifically dated that humans have the hardest birthing of their young and that their young is the most underdeveloped of all mammals. As a mother to 5 without medical supervision I would have lost my first one and I should have died after my 3rd one due to hemoraging in my uterus since all of the placenta did in fact not come out. What part of that was the actual responsibility of me doing my job of pushing a child out? none, the fact is child birthing is a delicate and unpredictable event which has many facades that are out of your control. If you are going to refuse God given well educated medical personel then what happens at this event will in fact rest upon your soul if anything goes wrong, I am sure you would hate to die (as I would have on my 3rd child) just because you were not taking precautions.If you did die you would leave behind all your kids with no mother and noone will ever care for them as you would, they might be good mothers but they would not be you so please spare your family a whole lot of heartache and unneccessary worry and do what is right by getting someone with experience to assist you with this birth, I do know what I am talking about.

MaterDominici · « **Reply #21 on:** June 30, 2010, 11:21:25 PM »

Quote from: dabollig

Ok, you make an excellent point that mammals are able to birth, however you missed the fact that as bipedial mammals we are in fact not at best design for birthing without serious possible complications. It is well scientifically dated that humans have the hardest birthing of their young and that their young is the most underdeveloped of all mammals. As a mother to 5 without medical supervision I would have lost my first one and I should have died after my 3rd one due to hemoraging in my uterus since all of the placenta did in fact not come out. What part of that was the actual responsibility of me doing my job of pushing a child out? none, the fact is child birthing is a delicate and unpredictable event which has many facades that are out of your control. If you are going to refuse God given well educated medical personel then what happens at this event will in fact rest upon your soul if anything goes wrong, I am sure you would hate to die (as I would have on my 3rd child) just because you were not taking precautions.If you did die you would leave behind all your kids with no mother and noone will ever care for them as you would, they might be good mothers but they would not be you so please spare your family a whole lot of heartache and unneccessary worry and do what is right by getting someone with experience to assist you with this birth, I do know what I am talking about.

Careful not to be too extreme the opposite direction. It's the paranoia about all of the possible things that could happen which drive up the rates of unnecessary intervention in births.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #22 on:** July 01, 2010, 08:57:12 PM »

God made Adam and Eve perfect. But something happened -- the fall. Since then we have imperfection, genetic defects, illness, and death in the world. You always have to take fallen nature into account. God also made our hearts capable of pumping blood, but they fail sometimes too--as do all of our bodily organs.

Given fallen nature, it would be at least borderline sinful not to take sufficient precaution without adequate reasons--such as, for instance, the inability to afford it. I've known too many women into the earthy crunch mother-goddess Gaia mentality--most of which is driven by the Eve-like ego of wanting to be like God. Were it not for modern medicine, I would have been dead at the age of twelve. But modern medicine played a role in God's will that I survive past that time and have five children of my own.

You speak as though we should just eliminate modern medicine altogether--ala Christian Scientists.

MaterDominici · « **Reply #23 on:** July 01, 2010, 09:11:52 PM »

Quote from: Ladislaus

God made Adam and Eve perfect. But something happened -- the fall. Since then we have imperfection, genetic defects, illness, and death in the world. You always have to take fallen nature into account. God also made our hearts capable of pumping blood, but they fail sometimes too--as do all of our bodily organs.

Given fallen nature, it would be at least borderline sinful not to take sufficient precaution without adequate reasons--such as, for instance, the inability to afford it. I've known too many women into the earthy crunch mother-goddess Gaia mentality--most of which is driven by the Eve-like ego of wanting to be like God. Were it not for modern medicine, I would have been dead at the age of twelve. But modern medicine played a role in God's will that I survive past that time and have five children of my own.

You speak as though we should just eliminate modern medicine altogether--ala Christian Scientists.

But were you already in the hospital when you became sick/injured at age 12? No, you went there after there was a problem. Childbirth isn't inherently a problem. The chances of such a HUGE complication that she can't make it to the hospital in time to save a life are extremely slim. Do you have a doctor stand by every time you operate a power tool?

I agree there should be a knowledgeable person around to assist, but that doesn't have to be a doctor and there are women who have the knowledge of a midwife even if they aren't certified as such. I don't think the knowledgeable person should be the birthing mother herself, but that still isn't as ridiculous as some might think it to be.

Raoul76 · « **Reply #24 on:** July 01, 2010, 10:59:09 PM »

Ladislaus said:

Quote

Given fallen nature, it would be at least borderline sinful not to take sufficient precaution without adequate reasons--such as, for instance, the inability to afford it.

I think everyone agrees on this point.

The problem is that treadingwater is hinting at some kind of philosophical or pseudo-religious agenda for not having a hospital birth, and there isn't one. Though I will admit, doctors and nurses do seem to be becoming more and more incompetent, more and more cavalier and careless and greedy, more and more third-world, in short. The medical industry doesn't have that gleaming, polished professionalism that it used to have, or at least that I thought it had.

Any trust I had in the medical profession has been shaken to its timbers by this experience with my mom and with how they've been prescribing her anti-depressants so carelessly ( and I'm talking her general practitioner, not just her psych ). Alex also, who is taking care of her grandmother, says that her grandmother always ends up more sick if she has to stay in the hospital, and she thinks that old people die faster if you put them in professional care, which is hard to argue with. My grandpa died about a month after being put in a home.

MaterDominici · « **Reply #25 on:** July 01, 2010, 11:10:41 PM »

Quote from: Raoul76

The problem is that treadingwater is hinting at some kind of philosophical or pseudo-religious agenda for not having a hospital birth, and there isn't one.

You don't need any reason to skip the hospital for a normal birth. The more you know about birthing in/out of a hospital, the more you'd agree that you should have a reason for wanting to go TO the hospital to give birth.

Birthing w/o a midwife is another story.

Raoul76 · « **Reply #26 on:** July 02, 2010, 01:01:14 AM »

Oops, that's what I meant.

CathMom37 · « **Reply #27 on:** July 03, 2010, 12:58:52 AM »

Quote from: treadingwater

I am pregnant with my seventh child. It is my belief that God would not have left the fate of mankind in the hands of a flawed system. That our bodies instinctively know how to birth our babies. We are mammals in the basic sense horse's, cats, monkeys don't need an obstetrician to tell them when to push, a nurse to hold their legs, or a midwife to empower them. I am submitting to Gods will and design for motherhood trusting his plan for childbirth and letting my body give birth at home, alone.

Why am I posting this here? We are all "Catholics" trusting in Gods plan for us submitting to his will not our own. How far are we all willing to follow his lead? at what costs?

Ok Treadingwater-Ill bite on this thread for a bit.

Absolutely Yes, God did design most woman to be able to give birth quite naturally and without help. It is a beautiful thing.

We are all Catholics submitting to Gods will and not our own- so in essence, it doesnt really matter whether we give birth at the hosp, home, or alone, God alone gives life or allows it to pass.

The only thing you are leaving out is our God-given responsibility to do all in our power to protect and nuture our offspring (something animals dont have). That has to be up to the indiviual parent, what that responsibility entails, as far as childbirth. It comes down to YOU ensuring that you live up to Gods responsibility placed on you.

What do I personally think is the minimum? I think you should have a midwife 'on call' should you decide during labor that she may be of assistance before or after the birth.
You eat well (Brewers diet maybe?), and you take on at least your own medical eval. God gave us amazing tech. to avail ourselves to.

Dawn · « **Reply #28 on:** July 03, 2010, 06:32:25 AM »

Quote from: CathMom37

Quote from: treadingwater
I am pregnant with my seventh child. It is my belief that God would not have left the fate of mankind in the hands of a flawed system. That our bodies instinctively know how to birth our babies. We are mammals in the basic sense horse's, cats, monkeys don't need an obstetrician to tell them when to push, a nurse to hold their legs, or a midwife to empower them. I am submitting to Gods will and design for motherhood trusting his plan for childbirth and letting my body give birth at home, alone.

Why am I posting this here? We are all "Catholics" trusting in Gods plan for us submitting to his will not our own. How far are we all willing to follow his lead? at what costs?

Ok Treadingwater-Ill bite on this thread for a bit.

Absolutely Yes, God did design most woman to be able to give birth quite naturally and without help. It is a beautiful thing.

We are all Catholics submitting to Gods will and not our own- so in essence, it doesnt really matter whether we give birth at the hosp, home, or alone, God alone gives life or allows it to pass.

The only thing you are leaving out is our God-given responsibility to do all in our power to protect and nuture our offspring (something animals dont have). That has to be up to the indiviual parent, what that responsibility entails, as far as childbirth. It comes down to YOU ensuring that you live up to Gods responsibility placed on you.

What do I personally think is the minimum? I think you should have a midwife 'on call' should you decide during labor that she may be of assistance before or after the birth.
You eat well (Brewers diet maybe?), and you take on at least your own medical eval. God gave us amazing tech. to avail ourselves to.

Well said :applause:

I had three babies born that needed Neo-care. They would all be dead if I gave birth "by myself". And, I am one that NEVER goes to a doctor for myself, and I take care of all my children's ailments with herbs, etc. Still, I thank God for the doctors that were there when I had my six children.

treadingwater · « **Reply #29 on:** July 03, 2010, 07:39:42 PM »

I do not believe that childbirth is by nature dangerous, our fear of the process is.

Women left alone in labor become completely in tune to their bodies, present in the moment. The presence of a birthing attendant deprives you of your focus instead of listening to your body your listening to their cues.

We all believe conception is a gift from God I know childbirth is too. Anyone who has given birth knows God is there in that moment. To say that childbirth isn't spiritual is ludicrous, labor is a deep meditation of prayer. Could you manage such an act surrounded by strangers disrupting your every thought, poking, prodding, robbing you of your dignity.

Yes childbirth comes with risk but so does life. We are all given tools to educate ourselves to lower or even eliminate risk, childbirth is no different.