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Author Topic: Morality of CBD Oil?  (Read 1492 times)

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Offline Struthio

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Re: Morality of CBD Oil?
« Reply #30 on: May 06, 2021, 10:41:03 PM »
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  • Also it is a complete lie that marijuana is not addictive.  It is not addictive physically like heroin or cocaine but mentally and psychologically it is extremely addictive.  I know this from watching my friends in my past life as a non Catholic.  

    Life is physically, mentally, and psychologically extremely addictive.  

    Quote from: Joe Jackson, Smoke, Lies and the Nanny State
    The Elizabethans who were the first European smokers observed that tobacco could become a habit which some found very hard to break. But, as Iain Gately points out in his excellent history of tobacco, La Diva Nicotina, they would have been baffled by our concept of ‘addiction’, since they believed that all human beings were granted by God the gift of free will. The idea that a man could be enslaved by a plant would have seemed to them absurd. I must confess this view makes more sense to me than the fashionable contemporary one which sees helpless victims everywhere, all needing to be protected either from themselves or from evil forces such as tobacco companies - who, conveniently, can then be sued for large sums of money.
    Men are not bound, or able to read hearts; but when they see that someone is a heretic by his external works, they judge him to be a heretic pure and simple ... Jerome points this out. (St. Robert Bellarmine)


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Morality of CBD Oil?
    « Reply #31 on: May 06, 2021, 10:43:33 PM »
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  • Here is the full article from which Fr. Scott's opinion was taken. The first opinion given is that of Fr. Doran. It well illustrates that different opinions do exist in the Church.



    Is smoking marijuana a sin?
    January 29, 2014
    Source: District of the USA

    Recently there has been quite a bit of news chatter about various state legislatures proposing to or actually legalizing the use of "recreational" marijuana. But what does the Catholic Church teach about the use of marijuana, or other narcotic drugs — is this a sin?

    We provide two answers to these frequently asked moral theological topics, extracted from The Best Questions and Answers (over 300 answers from 30 years of questions featured in The Angelus magazine).
    Is smoking marijuana a sin?

    “Neither the effeminate, nor sơdơmites, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards...will possess the kingdom of God” (I Cor. 6:10). Drunkenness is a deliberate excess in the use of intoxicating drink or drugs to the point of forcibly depriving oneself of the use of reason for the sake of gratifying an inordinate desire for such drink and not for the sake of promoting health. This is contrary to the virtue of temperance, and specifically sobriety. Sobriety regulates man’s desire and use of intoxicants, and is vitally necessary for an upright moral life.

    The evil of intoxication lies in the violence committed against one’s nature by depriving it of the use of reason. He deprives himself of that which makes him specifically human — his ability to think. The drunk, or in this case the drug user, desires this loss of reason because of the feeling of liberation which accompanies it precisely from this lack of control of the will over the reason. It is unnatural, contrary to sleep, which also deprives one of the use of reason but in a natural manner.

    Drug use gives an illicit means of escape. Besides being a sin, it also manifests an immaturity on the part of the user. Through an act of violence against himself, he escapes from the responsibility of decision making and control in his life. When this deprivation is complete, e.g., actions totally contrary to normal behavior, incapability of distinguishing between good and evil, etc., it is a grave sin. “In vino veritas,” said the Romans, not without reason. Any state short of complete drunkenness, without sufficient reason, is of itself venially sinful, but even in this case it may be a mortal sin if it causes scandal, injury to health, harm to one’s family, etc. It is important also to note that a man is responsible for all the sinful actions committed while intoxicated which he had, or ought to have, foreseen.

    According to Jone-Adelman in Moral Theology, the use of drugs in small quantities and only occasionally is a venial sin if done without sufficient reason. This could be the case, for example, with sleeping pills. Obviously, deprivation of the use of reason through narcotics is to be judged as alcohol. The use of most drugs is complicated by the fact that they are illegal. This also signifies the will of the user to break the law, an offense against social justice. This compounds the sin. The speed with which a drug alters one’s consciousness also aggravates its use. This rapidity risks a greater potential to deprive oneself of the use of reason and thus to pass on to stronger intoxicants for increased effect.

    Therefore, adding to the violation of the virtue of justice, the grave scandal caused, the grave danger of addiction, and the stronger consciousness-altering ability of marijuana, it is difficult to excuse one of mortal sin. Moreover, experience tells us that its use is frequently an occasion of mortal sin, especially sins of the flesh and the use of narcotic drugs. But to willingly and knowingly place oneself in an unnecessary proximate occasion of mortal sin is to commit a mortal sin.
    Fr. James Doran, September 1993




    Is it a mortal sin to use drugs?

    The old text books [on moral theology] do not speak of this new problem of the modern world. However, the immorality of drug abuse can be clearly deduced from the principles which allow an evaluation of the malice of alcohol abuse. The distinction is made between imperfect drunkenness, the fact of making oneself tipsy deliberately, which can only be a venial sin, and perfect drunkenness, which is drinking until one is drunk. This is a mortal sin because a drunken person loses the use of reason. This is St. Thomas Aquinas’s response to the objection that the quantity of wine drunk is but a circuмstance, which cannot make a venial sin into a mortal sin:

    With regard to drunkenness we reply that it is a mortal sin by reason of its genus: for that a man, without necessity, and through the mere lust of wine, makes himself unable to use his reason, whereby he is directed to God and avoids committing many sins, is expressly contrary to virtue. That it be a venial sin is due to some sort of ignorance or weakness, as when a man is ignorant of the strength of the wine, or of his own unfitness, so that he has no thought of getting drunk, for in that case the drunkenness is not imputed to him as a sin, but only the excessive drink…." (Summa Theologica, I-II, q. 88, art. 5, ad1)

    The consumption of illegal drugs, even those called soft drugs, is comparable not to becoming tipsy on a little wine but to perfect drunkenness. For these drugs have their effect by causing a “high,” that is, an emotional experience when a person escapes from the demands of reality. For a brief period he lives in an unreal, euphoric world. All the other effects, such as relaxation, come as a consequence of this “high,” or unreal euphoria. If this state does not always prohibit all use of reason, it most certainly does always impede the most important use of reason, which St. Thomas just explained to us “whereby he is directed to God and avoids committing many sins.” All drugs deaden the conscience, and obscure the practical judgment as to right and wrong and what we must do. With respect to morality, their effect is consequently equivalent to the removal of the use of reason, and is a practical refusal to direct all of man’s acts to God through reason.

    Drug abuse is consequently much worse than the pure seeking of pleasure or relaxation that some claim it to be. It is a denial of the natural and supernatural order, according to which God has created us in His image and likeness that our acts might be ordered to His honor and glory. Moreover, it goes without saying that the abuse of drugs is directly opposed to the Catholic spirit, which spirit of sacrifice, the practical application of the spirit of the cross, is essential to the living of our faith.

    As previously mentioned, the principal evil of drug abuse is the destruction of moral conscience. It follows that the atrocious consequences of drug abuse are inseparable from it, and are willed together with the drugs themselves. This includes the breaking of the law in the consumption of drugs; and in the means of obtaining them, such as theft; and in the effort to sell them in turn to others, often minors or children. Other consequences include the incredible self-indulgence which accompanies the almost insatiable desire for always more titillating experiences, sins of blasphemy, the often satanic rock music, and the sins against purity and chastity, which are the consequence of the loss of shame and conscience.

    Sins against charity and justice abound, such as disobedience to parents and refusal to do one’s duty at school or work, not to mention the bad company-keeping which is the breeding ground of all vices. Long term results are also willed in their cause, and they include such things as emotional and physical addiction, the passage from soft to hard drugs, the damage done to the body and to general health by prolonged drug use, culminating in the “fried” brains of the person who cannot even reason clearly, let alone make a moral judgment. It is a mortal sin to place one’s physical and spiritual health in such proximate danger, even if a person is to pretend that he is immune from this danger and that “it could not happen to me.”

    Even the often liberal and ambiguous Catechism of the Catholic Church, published in 1994 in application of the principles of Vatican II, acknowledges this:

    The use of drugs inflicts very grave damage on human health and life. Their use, except on strictly therapeutic grounds, is a grave offense. Clandestine production of and trafficking in drugs are scandalous practices. They constitute direct co-operation in evil, since they encourage people to practices gravely contrary to the moral law." (§2291)

    This does not, however, exclude the use of narcotic drugs for therapeutic reasons. Their use, under medical supervision, is justified by a sufficiently grave and proportionate reason, even if they do deprive a person temporarily of the use of reason. (Cf. Merkelbach, Summa Theologiae Moralis, II, 925). For it is not the loss of reason which is willed. It is only an indirect consequence, so that there is not necessarily a disorder with respect to the final end of man. The typical example is pain control.

    In conclusion, therefore, the use of marijuana, like any hard or soft drug, must be considered a mortal sin. If on occasion some people might be in ignorance as to the gravity of this sin, it is clearly evident that the matter is objectively serious. Consequently, it must be confessed as a mortal sin, and a person is obliged to confess drug abuse under pain of a bad or sacrilegious confession. If he forgot to confess the sin, he must then confess it at the first possible opportunity that he has. The priest who claimed that this was not a mortal sin has fallen into the trap of laxity.

    Fr. Peter Scott, January 1999

    What "difference of opinion" are you perceiving?

    Fr. Doran and Fr. Scott come to the same conclusion!

    Fr. Doran:
    "Therefore, adding to the violation of the virtue of justice, the grave scandal caused, the grave danger of addiction, and the stronger consciousness-altering ability of marijuana, it is difficult to excuse one of mortal sin. Moreover, experience tells us that its use is frequently an occasion of mortal sin, especially sins of the flesh and the use of narcotic drugs. But to willingly and knowingly place oneself in an unnecessary proximate occasion of mortal sin is to commit a mortal sin."

    Fr. Scott:
    "In conclusion, therefore, the use of marijuana, like any hard or soft drug, must be considered a mortal sin. If on occasion some people might be in ignorance as to the gravity of this sin, it is clearly evident that the matter is objectively serious. Consequently, it must be confessed as a mortal sin, and a person is obliged to confess drug abuse under pain of a bad or sacrilegious confession."
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline Emile

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    Re: Morality of CBD Oil?
    « Reply #32 on: May 06, 2021, 11:21:40 PM »
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  • This excerpt has nothing to do with recreational marijuana use, and the medical use for grave and proportionate reasons is not in dispute.
    The excerpts that you posted from Fr. Scott did not include this:


    Quote
    This does not, however, exclude the use of narcotic drugs for therapeutic reasons. Their use, under medical supervision, is justified by a sufficiently grave and proportionate reason, even if they do deprive a person temporarily of the use of reason. (Cf. Merkelbach, Summa Theologiae Moralis, II, 925). For it is not the loss of reason which is willed. It is only an indirect consequence, so that there is not necessarily a disorder with respect to the final end of man. The typical example is pain control.

    I posted this to show that Fr. Scott did indeed recognize the licitness of drug use for legitimate reason. A fact which was not clear from your previous posts.
    Patience is a conquering virtue. The learned say that, if it not desert you, It vanquishes what force can never reach; Why answer back at every angry speech? No, learn forbearance or, I'll tell you what, You will be taught it, whether you will or not.
    -Geoffrey Chaucer

    Offline Emile

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    Re: Morality of CBD Oil?
    « Reply #33 on: May 06, 2021, 11:36:50 PM »
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  • What "difference of opinion" are you perceiving?

    Fr. Doran and Fr. Scott come to the same conclusion!

    Fr. Doran:
    "Therefore, adding to the violation of the virtue of justice, the grave scandal caused, the grave danger of addiction, and the stronger consciousness-altering ability of marijuana, it is difficult to excuse one of mortal sin. Moreover, experience tells us that its use is frequently an occasion of mortal sin, especially sins of the flesh and the use of narcotic drugs. But to willingly and knowingly place oneself in an unnecessary proximate occasion of mortal sin is to commit a mortal sin."

    Fr. Scott:
    "In conclusion, therefore, the use of marijuana, like any hard or soft drug, must be considered a mortal sin. If on occasion some people might be in ignorance as to the gravity of this sin, it is clearly evident that the matter is objectively serious. Consequently, it must be confessed as a mortal sin, and a person is obliged to confess drug abuse under pain of a bad or sacrilegious confession."

     I am interested in what the Church teaches and thought that others reading this thread might be as well.

    The differences were already highlighted in my post.

    Fr. Doran admits the possibility of venial sin. When adding other factors (such as illegality, scandal, etc.) it may very well become mortal.

    Quote
    According to Jone-Adelman in Moral Theology, the use of drugs in small quantities and only occasionally is a venial sin if done without sufficient reason.



    Fr. Scott does not admit of such a possibility.

    Quote
    The consumption of illegal (see note below) drugs, even those called soft drugs, is comparable not to becoming tipsy on a little wine but to perfect drunkenness.
    Note: These articles were written when marijuana was still illegal in the U.S. That is no longer the case in some areas thus removing the illegality factor.

    I also note that neither of the good Fathers defined what constitutes a drug.
    Patience is a conquering virtue. The learned say that, if it not desert you, It vanquishes what force can never reach; Why answer back at every angry speech? No, learn forbearance or, I'll tell you what, You will be taught it, whether you will or not.
    -Geoffrey Chaucer

    Offline LaramieHirsch

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    Re: Morality of CBD Oil?
    « Reply #34 on: May 07, 2021, 01:01:52 AM »
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  • Anyway, supposing there were no euphoric effect, is there any moral reason why one should not try it?

    The thought that came to mind was that it still comes from pot (even if not the kind that gets you high), and might in some way promote pot grower companies, who probably also grow the pot that does get you high?

    Has anyone looked into this?
    Shortly after Oklahoma legalized marijuana, I had to wrestle with myself on this issue.  I knew my city would become all the nastier for it.  But still, I had to look at the matter carefully.  

    Objectively, this plant has many positive benefits.  Even St. Hildegard of Bingen promoted chewing hemp seeds.  And, of course, I shared my thoughts on the matter:

    https://forge-and-anvil.com/2019/06/16/cannabis/

    But with today's society? No.  Regular people are too immoral, lazy, and silly to handle having such easy access to this substance.  It is clear that society is unable to handle legalization.  That's my current opinion.
    .........................

    Before some audiences not even the possession of the exactest knowledge will make it easy for what we say to produce conviction. For argument based on knowledge implies instruction, and there are people whom one cannot instruct.  - Aristotle


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Morality of CBD Oil?
    « Reply #35 on: May 07, 2021, 04:37:31 AM »
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  • Would this help Shin?
    ..
    About 2 or 3 years ago, I used CBD oil for about 4 months or so for an old sports injury that flares up and lasts for weeks, it did zero to help ease any pain and actually did absolutely nothing at all, all it was for me was a waste of money. These days it is 2 or 3 times as expensive as when I used it.

    Far as the morality of it goes, I don't see how it could in any way be immoral.
     
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Morality of CBD Oil?
    « Reply #36 on: May 07, 2021, 06:56:00 AM »
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  • Fr. Doran quotes the first part of Jone, where he says that using small amounts occasionally constitutes venial sins ... without sufficient reason, but then conveniently leaves out the second part, where it states that the small amounts can be used occasionally without sin for relatively light reasons, like calming the nerves.

    With regard to marijuana, that "microdosing" thing reportedly gives you the good benefits such as relief of anxiety, lifting of spirits, etc. ... without impairing reason or judgment.  I don't see how that would be a sin at all ... assuming that it's legal where you're at and doesn't put your job at risk.  Recall that the chief reason why it can be sinful is due to the impairment of reason, so if that's taken off the table, I'm not seeing the principle whereby it would be inherently sinful.

    As Fr. Scott wrote it up, even taking one hit off a joint so that it doesn't impair reason would constitute a mortal sin ... unless used for medical reasons. Nothing about his explanation makes sense except for the part that everyone agrees on, where it's a grave sin to use it to the extent of significantly impairing the use of reason ... absent a grave circuмstance such as severe pain, etc.

    I mean, Fr. Scott discredits his narrative right out of the gate by claiming that "The old text books [on moral theology] do not speak of this new problem of the modern world."  Really, drugs didn't exist until the modern world?  They've been around since the beginning of recorded history.  And the theology books did in fact deal with it.  Did he even bother to casually leaf through a couple of them?  We already have references to Jone and Merkelbach, and I bet lots of moral theologians discussed the issue.  Again, drugs are NOT NEW.

    Then this is also a false statement:  "All the other effects, such as relaxation, come as a consequence of this “high,” or unreal euphoria."  This is demonstrably false.  Relaxation can be achieved with SMALL doses long before there's a high.  This "high" comes about from dosing higher.  If anything it's the opposite, that the "high" comes from extending the effects to large doses, from "excess relaxation".  I see absolutely zero reason to distinguish the use of a small amount of marijuana from a relatively small amount of alcohol, where it gets you to relax and lifts your spirits.  Sacred Scripture speaks of wine that it "brings joy to the hear of man." (Psalm 103).  So is this joy the consequence of the "high"?  No, the only difference between alcohol and marijuana is the legality.  It's increasingly becoming legal and the legality of alcohol vs. the illegality of marijuana is completely arbitrary, and historically it was engineered by Rockefeller for his oil interests.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Morality of CBD Oil?
    « Reply #37 on: May 07, 2021, 07:14:31 AM »
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  • Quote
    Another magnate who stood to lose was Standard Oil Company’s John D. Rockefeller, Jr. who pretty much had a monopoly on the US petroleum market at the time. Rockefeller was a big supporter of alcohol prohibition, in the beginning, arguably also for financial reasons – with alcohol illegal people were forced to run their cars on gasoline instead of the cheaper farm-made ethyl alcohol.

    When the 22nd amendment repealed alcohol prohibition, Rockefeller faced similar competition from hemp. Rudolph Diesel, inventor of the diesel engine, originally used hemp oil to fuel it. Rockefeller had a vested interest in keeping this environmentally friendly renewable resource out of the picture.

    Many other industries stood to lose as well.   A 1938 edition of Popular Mechanics claimed that over 25,000 products could be made from hemp – everything from cellophane to dynamite.  Henry Ford even made a car out of hemp fiber than was lighter and 10 times as strong as steel.

    No matter, as history has shown, corporate greed won out and marijuana became illegal in this country.  These three men, in positions of great power in government, the media, and industry, used their influence to push forward an agenda that lead to the polluting of our planet, wars fought over oil, the loss of personal liberties, and the prison industrial complex.


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Morality of CBD Oil?
    « Reply #38 on: May 07, 2021, 03:03:50 PM »
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  • Well, nobody can say I’m not open-minded:

    After yet another sleepless night of shoulder joint pain (from weightlifting), I said the heck with it and went to the local CBD store.

    I was very polite to the Cyndi Lauper-looking freak with the Marilyn Manson mascara job behind the counter, and explained what I was looking for.

    She brought me over to the wall display shelves of VERY expensive little 2-oz bottles of various oils, tinctures, and creams (cheapest one I saw was $40, and there weren’t many of those).

    Then something caught my eye which immediately conveyed to me tgat I was heading down the wrong path:

    PACHAMAMA!!

    Apparently, one of the most popular brands of CBD products (and the one most prominently displayed in this store) is called PACHAMAMA.

    That told me all I needed to know about the CBD culture: These people like natural stuff, but they are flirting with nature worship (Wicca = devil worship) and Druidic alchemy.

    I got the hell out of there, and will stick with Advil.

    Between the suggestive and leading philosophy of the CBD manufacturers toward pagan nature worship, and the freaky looking employee (whom one could easily imagine being on board with precisely such a nature religion), it felt like I’d be one step closer to crystals and Tarrot Cards if I went down this path.

    It felt like seeing PACHAMAMA displayed before anything else was a message (signal grace?).
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Kazimierz

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    Re: Morality of CBD Oil?
    « Reply #39 on: May 07, 2021, 03:22:26 PM »
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  • "I was very polite to the Cyndi Lauper-looking freak with the Marilyn Manson mascara job behind the counter..."

    That definitely got a smile out me. The temptation to sprinkle holy oils and lighting up such characters though is very very great. :laugh1:

    Although there are some good things to say about herbal remedies, why is it that many vendors as per your experience Sean, range from the mildly off to the downright weird/diabolic? 

    For inflammation I am limited to taking the Devil's Tictac (prednisone) and for pain I need usually T4s.

    As for essential oils, I stick with Hoppe's.  ;) :cowboy:

    From the blowing of my nose,
    they be wicked I do suppose.
    Da pacem Domine in diebus nostris
    Qui non est alius
    Qui pugnet pro nobis
    Nisi  tu Deus noster

    Offline LaramieHirsch

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    Re: Morality of CBD Oil?
    « Reply #40 on: May 09, 2021, 05:05:02 PM »
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  •  In response to an above point: The oil, itself, would not be wrong to use in and of itself. But again, the drug culture that surrounds it is always a problem. 

     I mean, the syncretic Pachamama  demon is an obvious giveaway to the evil drug culture that surrounds this stuff. It’s tragic, because there’s a lot of good potential. 

     I wonder what a Catholic run CBD business would look like. 
    .........................

    Before some audiences not even the possession of the exactest knowledge will make it easy for what we say to produce conviction. For argument based on knowledge implies instruction, and there are people whom one cannot instruct.  - Aristotle


    Offline Yeti

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    Re: Morality of CBD Oil?
    « Reply #41 on: May 09, 2021, 05:30:23 PM »
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  • Quote
    Fr. Scott:
    The use of most drugs is complicated by the fact that they are illegal. This also signifies the will of the user to break the law, an offense against social justice. This compounds the sin.
    .
    Does this also mean it's a sin to drink a beer in a dry county? Or during Prohibition in the 1920s?

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Morality of CBD Oil?
    « Reply #42 on: May 09, 2021, 08:14:05 PM »
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  • .
    Does this also mean it's a sin to drink a beer in a dry county? Or during Prohibition in the 1920s?

    Sophistry:

    Your example presumes dope and beer have the same effect.

    They don’t   :facepalm:
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    Re: Morality of CBD Oil?
    « Reply #43 on: May 09, 2021, 08:19:57 PM »
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  • Does this also mean it's a sin to drink a beer in a dry county?

    A "dry county" means alcoholic beverages cannot be bought or sold, nothing more.

    Happily for you, stupidity is not necessarily sinful.
    "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."

    Offline Struthio

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    Re: Morality of CBD Oil?
    « Reply #44 on: May 09, 2021, 09:06:44 PM »
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  • Sophistry:

    Your example presumes dope and beer have the same effect.

    They don’t   :facepalm:

    No, Sean, it's not about the effect. Catholics stick to laws which may not be useful but are tolerable*, for the sole reason to not cause scandal and encuмber evangelization. (see the epistles of St. Paul)

    With respect to the effect: You can use as well as misuse alcohol, and you can use as well as misuse cannabis.


    * tolerable = not against natural law, and not impeding our Catholic duties
    Men are not bound, or able to read hearts; but when they see that someone is a heretic by his external works, they judge him to be a heretic pure and simple ... Jerome points this out. (St. Robert Bellarmine)