Catholic Info

Traditional Catholic Faith => Health and Nutrition => Topic started by: TheRealMcCoy on January 20, 2024, 08:52:02 AM

Title: Gluten free hosts
Post by: TheRealMcCoy on January 20, 2024, 08:52:02 AM
Is a gluten-free communion host a valid Eucharist?
Title: Re: Gluten free hosts
Post by: St Giles on January 20, 2024, 09:46:43 AM
No, but low gluten 0.01% gluten hosts are available for those with the allergy. They are often erroneously called gluten free, partly because low gluten doesn't sound very reassuring. Looking at the number 0.01% (0.0001) is reassuring, though.
Title: Re: Gluten free hosts
Post by: Giovanni Berto on January 20, 2024, 09:49:14 AM
I recently read that it is no real bread if there is no gluten.

I wonder if it is true.
Title: Re: Gluten free hosts
Post by: Ladislaus on January 20, 2024, 09:50:36 AM
From what I understand, it would not be or would at least be highly doubtful.  I don't know of any gluten-free flour products that actually contain wheat.

For those who have gluten sensitivity (several of my family), if you use an ancient form of wheat like einkorn or emmer/farro, you should have a lot less issues.  As I said, I have family who react badly to gluten (migraine headaches, stomach issues, etc.), but we made loaves of farro bread, and nobody had even the slightest reaction to it.

Most people don't know but most modern wheat is in fact generically altered by "big wheat" for various commercial purposes (not by today's methods though).  What Our Lord would have used would have been some variety closer to einkorn or emmer.  I've long advocated returning to those for hosts.  There's no question of validity, since the issue is whether it has the accidents of bread and would be recognized as such, but why use a big-wheat-adulterated form of wheat when the ancient grains are still around and available?

If you're not deathly allergic, perhaps the priest could give you a very small fragment of the host (instead of the usual size) or sometimes will give you Holy Communion under the species of wine using a spoon (as the Eastern Rites do).  But even though some of my family are gluten-sensitive (as described above), none of them has ever had issues with receiving the Holy Communion host.  I personally don't believe (my pious belief) that Our Lord would allow the Body of Christ to do harm to anyone (regardless of the accidents).  I know a Ruthenian Eastern Rite priest who rebelled against his bishop when the bishop imposed all the COVID restrictions, because he strongly held that Holy Communion could never transmit a virus due to God's protection.  Alas, he went Eastern Orthodox.
Title: Re: Gluten free hosts
Post by: Ladislaus on January 20, 2024, 09:55:14 AM
I believe that modern gluten sensitivity is due to a combination of the genetically adulterated wheat and the use of glyphosate (RoundUp) on wheat crops.  Our Lord would not have chosen something that is so "bad" for this many people.  Until the last few decades, gluten sensitivity was not even a thing and never heard of.

There's a book out there called "Wheat Belly" which attributes the issues people have with obesity in modern society with the modified wheat from big-agra / big-wheat, and I believe the glyphosate contributed mightily as well.
Title: Re: Gluten free hosts
Post by: Ladislaus on January 20, 2024, 10:02:04 AM
No, but low gluten 0.01% gluten hosts are available for those with the allergy. They are often erroneously called gluten free, partly because low gluten doesn't sound very reassuring. Looking at the number 0.01% (0.0001) is reassuring, though.

I'd be highly suspicious of these.  One I saw online contain a whole bunch of other ingredients (you almost have to in order to replace wheat, and wheat inherently contains gluten).  Here are the ingredients one that I found.

Contains: water, garbanzo bean flour, potato starch, tapioca flour, whole grain sweet white sorghum flour, fava bean flour, palm oil

This would be 100% invalid for transubstantiation, and even if you could find some that contain some wheat, you can't have all these other ingredients in it.  I think these types would only be used by Prots, who don't really believe in transubstantiation anywa.
Title: Re: Gluten free hosts
Post by: Ladislaus on January 20, 2024, 10:05:09 AM
Here's a "Catholic" one, which I also hold would be invalid.  Is this really bread, where the main ingredient is starch and they stick a tiny amount of flour into it?  Just because they can get it to sortof look like bread doesn't make it bread.  To me, this would be like putting too much water into the wine at Holy Communion time, which if it's too diluted would be held to be invalid.

(https://cdn11.bigcommerce.com/s-zjzn8ssx4n/images/stencil/1280x1280/products/15183/73528/J0528__59186.1651012860.jpg?c=1)
Title: Re: Gluten free hosts
Post by: Ladislaus on January 20, 2024, 10:13:05 AM
https://www.sturgisjournal.com/story/news/columns/2017/04/06/grains-bible/15276854007/
Quote
The Bible references grains. However, the grains consumed a couple thousand years ago are nothing near the grains we consume today.

In Jesus' time, there were three major wheat varieties: Einkorn, Emmer, and Spelt.  These grains had and have a higher protein content and lower anti-nutrient content than the grains of today.  This is because today's 25,000+ species were created in a lab to be disease resistant or produce higher yields. However, in order to achieve this, scientists had to enhance their glutens, lectins and phytates, which can be harmful to our body. This is likely why the hybridized strains of wheat produce allergy reactions while the ancient, un-hybridized wheats show little to no reaction, especially Einkorn.

I've also seen some evidence to back up the fact that the excessive lectins can be bad for you as well, in addition to the excess gluten.  The were all made by big agra "in a lab to be disease resistant or produce higher yields" ... aka for $$$, and this is compounded by their generous use of glyphosate.

Uhm, maybe they're disease resistant because even the vermin don't want this stuff and don't recognize it as real food.'

If there are any groups of Traditional nuns/monks/brothers who make Communion hosts, I would highly recommend that they look into using Emmer or Einkorn for Communion hosts, natural bread as God intended it and created it, and which He would not have chosen for the Blessed Sacrament if it was harmful to so many people.  I'm confident that this would cause the modern gluten-free Communion crisis to evaporate.
Title: Re: Gluten free hosts
Post by: St Giles on January 20, 2024, 10:20:37 AM
If I remember, I'll see what we keep on hand, but I think it's just "wheat flour and water"
Title: Re: Gluten free hosts
Post by: Emile on January 20, 2024, 10:30:18 AM
I recall a somewhat similar discussion in the last few years. A member or two who were prone to an allergic reaction to wheat said that the Priest would reserve a bit of the Precious Blood and administer it to them. (I don't recall if it was at the same time as other communicants or given privately after Mass.) It would seem to be the safer course rather than using doubtful matter.
Title: Re: Gluten free hosts
Post by: St Giles on January 20, 2024, 10:36:39 AM
That used to take place where I'm at, but was later replaced with low gluten hosts. Why? Maybe convenience, and decreased risk of spilling  drop of Precious Blood. One priest I asked about it was surprised the Precious blood was spooned out, but I can't remember his reason for finding that unfavorable.
Title: Re: Gluten free hosts
Post by: Ladislaus on January 20, 2024, 11:49:28 AM
I recall a somewhat similar discussion in the last few years. A member or two who were prone to an allergic reaction to wheat said that the Priest would reserve a bit of the Precious Blood and administer it to them. (I don't recall if it was at the same time as other communicants or given privately after Mass.) It would seem to be the safer course rather than using doubtful matter.

I agree, but has anyone every received valid Holy Communion and reported some kind of adverse reaction?  I've never heard of it, even for someone who is allergic to wheat.  If I had a wheat allergy, I'd go receive Holy Communion anyway, trusting that God would not allow (even the accidents of) Holy Communion to do me any harm.
Title: Re: Gluten free hosts
Post by: Soubirous on January 20, 2024, 12:22:25 PM
A 100% wheat host from regular commercial flour has how much flour in it, a fraction of a teaspoon. Any gastro/respiratory/dermal reaction is probably more from power of suggestion than anything else.

That said, what would be cost increment for using einkorn/emmer/spelt for everyone?
Title: Re: Gluten free hosts
Post by: Ladislaus on January 20, 2024, 01:09:12 PM
A 100% wheat host from regular commercial flour has how much flour in it, a fraction of a teaspoon. Any gastro/respiratory/dermal reaction is probably more from power of suggestion than anything else.

That said, what would be cost increment for using einkorn/emmer/spelt for everyone?

Yes, I've thought that as well, where the amount of wheat/flour/gluten in a host would be so small anyway that it would hardly elicit any reaction.  I just think there are a lot of attention-getters out there who want to get their "special" Communion.  In one Ruthenian Eastern Rite church, there's one woman who gets her little mini-chalice because in the Eastern Rite, the wheat / bread is intermingled in the chalice with the wine, and so even if she just received the wine species, there might be a few molecules of wheat/gluten in it.  I always found this utterly absurd.  But she went up all by herself to receive her own special Holy Communion.

As for the cost, as you said, we're talking about such a small amount of flour, that it could hardly amount to much more than 1 or 2 cents per host tops, to use einkorn/emmer.  Not only does it have less gluten, but it avoids having to use human-butchered and engineered wheat in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass vs. the natural wheat that developed as God had intended.
Title: Re: Gluten free hosts
Post by: songbird on January 20, 2024, 02:03:01 PM
gluten free?  First, if we have a valid priest, then it becomes Christ.  My daughter is gluten free and takes the full size host, Christ.  Also, even a crumb is all and totally Christ.
Title: Re: Gluten free hosts
Post by: Ladislaus on January 20, 2024, 02:18:45 PM
gluten free?  First, if we have a valid priest, then it becomes Christ.  My daughter is gluten free and takes the full size host, Christ.  Also, even a crumb is all and totally Christ.

Has your daughter ever had an issues as a result of receiving the Host?

And, yes, I mentioned that if somehow it did happen (I don't believe it would), the priest could even give a small fraction of a Host to the communicant, and she would receive Holy Communion.  I'm sure that a tiny crumb will cause someone to go into anaphylactic shock.
Title: Re: Gluten free hosts
Post by: Angelus on January 20, 2024, 04:05:28 PM
Low-gluten hosts (and any host with less than 1% wheat gluten) are definitely invalid matter. Avoid those hosts and any priest who attempts to confect any "low-gluten" hosts for his own consumption.

Here is an online Vatican docuмent that explains valid matter:

https://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/docuмents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20030724_pane-senza-glutine_en.html

Quote
2. Low-gluten hosts (partially gluten-free) are valid matter, provided they contain a sufficient amount of gluten to obtain the confection of bread without the addition of foreign materials and without the use of procedures that would alter the nature of bread.

Then read this:

https://bakerpedia.com/different-amounts-gluten-flour/

Quote
The protein level in gluten plays a crucial role in products keeping their shape. So, the ideal amount of gluten in flour is going to change with what you’re baking. The flour with the lowest amount of gluten in it is cake flour containing only 7-9% gluten. It is of course used in cake, but also muffins and delicate cookies. All-purpose flour has 8-11% gluten in it. It can be used to make things like waffles, pie crusts, pastries, and cookies. Bread flour has the highest amounts of gluten at 12-14%, and works well in yeast products.

The commercially-sold "low gluten" hosts contain less than 1 one-hundredth of one percent of gluten. Not even close to being valid matter.

And hosts that contain other substances than wheat are invalid. So substituting some other grain does not solve the problem.
Title: Re: Gluten free hosts
Post by: JoeZ on January 20, 2024, 05:25:16 PM
Our friend's daughter has Celiac Disease. Her's is rather acute, if you put a hotdog on a bun and took it off to give to her that will trigger a reaction which usually is vomiting. She receives Communion regularly, a full size Host and she has no reactions from Him.

I hope this helps,
JoeZ
Title: Re: Gluten free hosts
Post by: Ladislaus on January 20, 2024, 06:11:53 PM
Our friend's daughter has Celiac Disease. Her's is rather acute, if you put a hotdog on a bun and took it off to give to her that will trigger a reaction which usually is vomiting. She receives Communion regularly, a full size Host and she has no reactions from Him.

I hope this helps,
JoeZ

Thanks, JoeZ.  That's in line with my pious belief that Our Lord would not allow Holy Communion to harm anyone.
Title: Re: Gluten free hosts
Post by: Yeti on January 20, 2024, 07:44:20 PM
Thanks, JoeZ.  That's in line with my pious belief that Our Lord would not allow Holy Communion to harm anyone.
.

No, it is Catholic dogma that the accidents of the Holy Eucharist remain. So if a host has, as one of its accidents, that it will cause someone some sort of harm, then that will not change after the consecration.

St. Alphonsus even talked about the case where someone poisoned the altar wine in order to murder the priest, and then confessed doing this to the priest in confession right before Mass (I know, the whole concept is bizarre, but he was trying to illustrate various points), but refused to change the wine and was refused absolution. So, the priest has to go and say Mass anyway, right? He can't act on anything heard in confession.

The problem here is, how does the priest deal with this? St. Alphonsus doesn't say the priest doesn't need to worry about anything, because "Our Lord would not allow Holy Communion to harm anyone". No, he says the priest would have to figure something out or he would die. The question was extremely difficult, as he said it would be intrinsically immoral for the priest to use the altar wine knowing it would kill him, since that would be ѕυιcιdє, and he suggested that the priest drop the cruet on the floor and smash it during Mass, making it look like an accident. That was the best thing he could think of, though this is one of the classic "insoluble" problems of the Seal of Confession.

No theologian has ever answered this problem by saying Our Lord will not allow the Precious Blood to poison the priest.
Title: Re: Gluten free hosts
Post by: pnw1994 on January 20, 2024, 07:54:22 PM
This thread comes at an apropos time.

My chapel (SSPX) has a number of attendees who are celiac/gluten intolerant of some sort. So for years they have received some kind of low gluten host.

Recently, somebody from my chapel sent a letter to the district superior arguing that low gluten hosts were of doubtful validity (whether they were arguing that ALL low gluten hosts were doubtful, or that the specific type that my chapel/the district was using were doubtful, I’m not sure. I didn’t see the letter.) anyways, I understand that the issue went all the way up to Menzingen, who instructed that the entire district pause distributing low gluten hosts, and distribute the Precious Blood to the gluten intolerant instead. 

I am curious of more of the details here, what exactly the complaint was etc. but because the issue doesn’t concern/affect me at all I don’t want to seem like a busybody by bugging the priest about this.
Title: Re: Gluten free hosts
Post by: WorldsAway on January 20, 2024, 08:08:21 PM
.

No, it is Catholic dogma that the accidents of the Holy Eucharist remain. So if a host has, as one of its accidents, that it will cause someone some sort of harm, then that will not change after the consecration.

St. Alphonsus even talked about the case where someone poisoned the altar wine in order to murder the priest, and then confessed doing this to the priest in confession right before Mass (I know, the whole concept is bizarre, but he was trying to illustrate various points), but refused to change the wine and was refused absolution. So, the priest has to go and say Mass anyway, right? He can't act on anything heard in confession.

The problem here is, how does the priest deal with this? St. Alphonsus doesn't say the priest doesn't need to worry about anything, because "Our Lord would not allow Holy Communion to harm anyone". No, he says the priest would have to figure something out or he would die. The question was extremely difficult, as he said it would be intrinsically immoral for the priest to use the altar wine knowing it would kill him, since that would be ѕυιcιdє, and he suggested that the priest drop the cruet on the floor and smash it during Mass, making it look like an accident. That was the best thing he could think of, though this is one of the classic "insoluble" problems of the Seal of Confession.

No theologian has ever answered this problem by saying Our Lord will not allow the Precious Blood to poison the priest.
I don't think believing the Holy Eucharist cannot harm the gluten intolerant is at odds with the accidents remaining. Why could Our Lord not make the gluten-intolerant tolerant of gluten during, and for some time after, the reception of the Eucharist?
Title: Re: Gluten free hosts
Post by: Yeti on January 20, 2024, 09:20:58 PM
I don't think believing the Holy Eucharist cannot harm the gluten intolerant is at odds with the accidents remaining. Why could Our Lord not make the gluten-intolerant tolerant of gluten during, and for some time after, the reception of the Eucharist?
.

An accident is some quality that an object has that are not its substance. These are things like taste, color, smell, and so on. This would include chemical reactivity, and every other physical property that it has. So, if some substance makes a person sick, that is an accident of that substance.

This can be more easily explained by saying there is no experiment that someone can do to a host to determine if it is consecrated or not, since any experiment would only tell us the accidents of the host, not its substance.

So, if a certain type of host makes a particular person sick, that is an accident of the host.

Let's see what the Council of Trent says:

Quote
If anyone says that in the sacred and holy sacrament of the Eucharist there remains the substance of bread and wine together with the body and blood of our Lord Jesus Christ, and denies that wonderful and singular conversion of the whole substance of the bread into the body, and of the entire substance of the wine into the blood, the species [accidents] of the bread and wine only remaining, a change which the Catholic Church most fittingly calls transubstantiation: let him be anathema. Denzinger 884.


So the Council of Trent tells us that the species or accidents of the bread and wine remain after consecration. Therefore the bread and wine will behave exactly the same, on a physical level, both before and after consecration.

If this idea were true, then it would be possible to do an experiment with a sacred host to tell if it is consecrated or not, by giving it to someone with celiac disease, and then based on whether they get sick or not you would know if it is consecrated. This is not only contrary to the Council of Trent, it is contrary to the entire Catholic concept of the Holy Eucharist, which is that Our Lord's presence is a mystery since He is physically undetectable in the sacred host.
Title: Re: Gluten free hosts
Post by: St Giles on January 20, 2024, 09:38:55 PM
This thread comes at an apropos time.

My chapel (SSPX) has a number of attendees who are celiac/gluten intolerant of some sort. So for years they have received some kind of low gluten host.

Recently, somebody from my chapel sent a letter to the district superior arguing that low gluten hosts were of doubtful validity (whether they were arguing that ALL low gluten hosts were doubtful, or that the specific type that my chapel/the district was using were doubtful, I’m not sure. I didn’t see the letter.) anyways, I understand that the issue went all the way up to Menzingen, who instructed that the entire district pause distributing low gluten hosts, and distribute the Precious Blood to the gluten intolerant instead.

I am curious of more of the details here, what exactly the complaint was etc. but because the issue doesn’t concern/affect me at all I don’t want to seem like a busybody by bugging the priest about this.
Interesting, I'll keep that in mind.
Title: Re: Gluten free hosts
Post by: Angelus on January 20, 2024, 09:52:50 PM
Interesting, I'll keep that in mind.

That is invalid matter. Explained here:

https://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/docuмents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20030724_pane-senza-glutine_en.html (https://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/docuмents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20030724_pane-senza-glutine_en.html)

Quote
Quote
2. Low-gluten hosts (partially gluten-free) are valid matter, provided they contain a sufficient amount of gluten to obtain the confection of bread without the addition of foreign materials and without the use of procedures that would alter the nature of bread.

1. It is impossible to make what is commonly-known, historically-known as "bread" from something with .001% of gluten.  It will not be "bread." It will be a pressed mush.

2. It is "wheat starch," which is a wheat-based product with the gluten (protein) and bran (fiber) and germ (fat) completely removed by a chemical manufacturing process. In no way is "wheat starch" the same thing as "bread."

This is what you are eating:

https://www.talasonline.com/Wheat-Starch


Quote
Description

Our superior Wheat Starch is an uncooked highly refined wheat starch. Commonly used in bookbinding and paper conservation as an adhesive for paper, leather, fabric, and other porous materials.  It is sought after as a very stable adhesive with excellent long term aging characteristics.  This starch is exceptionally white in color due to an extra washing process to remove impurities, gelatinizes at low cooking temperatures and forms cooled pastes which are delicate and smooth in texture.  Has a high water holding capacity, pH 5-6.5 (measured in a 70% slurry).

To buffer this material, add 10% (by weight) of calcium carbonate. (http://www.talasonline.com/Calcium-Carbonate)

This product requires cooking.

Title: Re: Gluten free hosts
Post by: SimpleMan on January 20, 2024, 10:02:45 PM
Here's a "Catholic" one, which I also hold would be invalid.  Is this really bread, where the main ingredient is starch and they stick a tiny amount of flour into it?  Just because they can get it to sortof look like bread doesn't make it bread.  To me, this would be like putting too much water into the wine at Holy Communion time, which if it's too diluted would be held to be invalid.

(https://cdn11.bigcommerce.com/s-zjzn8ssx4n/images/stencil/1280x1280/products/15183/73528/J0528__59186.1651012860.jpg?c=1)
I looked this up, and supposedly it's made out of "wheat starch".  But wouldn't anything coming from wheat have gluten in it?  I have no idea how this works.

And just for the heck of it, if this is valid matter, then why don't they just make ALL communion hosts this way, and avoid having to make special accommodation for gluten-sensitive folks?  The first time I ever saw communion hosts, I had no idea what they were, and would never have recognized them as bread.  They looked like Styrofoam discs to me.
Title: Re: Gluten free hosts
Post by: Angelus on January 20, 2024, 10:06:49 PM
I looked this up, and supposedly it's made out of "wheat starch".  But wouldn't anything coming from wheat have gluten in it?  I have no idea how this works.

They chemically-remove everything but the starch from the wheat to get that product. It is impossible to make "bread" with wheat starch.


1983 Canon

Can.  924 §1. The most holy eucharistic sacrifice must be offered with bread and with wine in which a little water must be mixed.
§2. The bread must be only wheat and recently made so that there is no danger of spoiling.
§3. The wine must be natural from the fruit of the vine and not spoiled.


1917 Canon

Canon 815 (1983 CIC 924)
§ 1. The bread must be pure wheat and recently made so that there is no danger of corruption.
§ 2. The wine must be a natural product of the vine and not corrupt
Title: Re: Gluten free hosts
Post by: Emile on January 21, 2024, 12:22:43 AM
Interesting, I'll keep that in mind.
(https://i.imgur.com/Fq9OCdW.png)

"Less than .001% gluten".
Pre VII era, even the candles used for liturgical functions were required to be a minimum of 51% beeswax, but .00099% gluten makes a host into the wheaten bread required for validity? Hmm. (Not that wheat is 100% gluten, all-purpose flour is said to be in the range of 8-11% gluten)
Title: Re: Gluten free hosts
Post by: Ladislaus on January 21, 2024, 06:12:23 AM
I don't think believing the Holy Eucharist cannot harm the gluten intolerant is at odds with the accidents remaining. Why could Our Lord not make the gluten-intolerant tolerant of gluten during, and for some time after, the reception of the Eucharist?

Precisely.
Title: Re: Gluten free hosts
Post by: Ladislaus on January 21, 2024, 06:15:45 AM
.

An accident is some quality that an object has that are not its substance. These are things like taste, color, smell, and so on. This would include chemical reactivity, and every other physical property that it has. So, if some substance makes a person sick, that is an accident of that substance.

This can be more easily explained by saying there is no experiment that someone can do to a host to determine if it is consecrated or not, since any experiment would only tell us the accidents of the host, not its substance.

So, if a certain type of host makes a particular person sick, that is an accident of the host.

Let's see what the Council of Trent says:


So the Council of Trent tells us that the species or accidents of the bread and wine remain after consecration. Therefore the bread and wine will behave exactly the same, on a physical level, both before and after consecration.

If this idea were true, then it would be possible to do an experiment with a sacred host to tell if it is consecrated or not, by giving it to someone with celiac disease, and then based on whether they get sick or not you would know if it is consecrated. This is not only contrary to the Council of Trent, it is contrary to the entire Catholic concept of the Holy Eucharist, which is that Our Lord's presence is a mystery since He is physically undetectable in the sacred host.

Nonsense.  There’s nothing contrary to Trent in considering that God would prevent the accidents from behaving in such a way as to not do harm.  In Eucharistic miracles, God changes the accidents entirely.  God can do whatever He wants.  Some saints were protected by God from being affected by poisons.
Title: Re: Gluten free hosts
Post by: Ladislaus on January 21, 2024, 06:51:09 AM
I also hold that the accidents are elevated by their contact with the Divine substance.  Our Lord's Flesh was elevated by union with His Divine Person.  Similarly, when Our Lord rose from the dead and during His Transfiguration, the properties and attributes of His Body, which remained the same, were elevated and "glorified" ... and yet it was the very same Flesh.  He did not somehow take on a different glorified Body, but the very same Body was glorified, taking on different properties, being elevated to a different state.  Similarly, when the accidents of the bread are united with the Divine Substance, they are elevated to a different level, while remaining essentially the same.  To me, holding otherwise, that the accidents remain on their same crass level as before Transubstantiation is a step in the direction of the Protestant notion of consubstantiation.

Just on an anecdotal level, when I was a Novus Ordo altar boy, I would occasionally bring home some unconsecrated hosts from the sacristy and would eat them, sometimes playing Mass with my younger siblings.  I would say they they didn't even taste quite the same as what I now experience during Holy Communion.  When one receives Holy Communion with the same hosts when consecrated, even the way the senses perceive the Blessed Sacrament seem "different" and elevated vs. mere consumption of the same un-consecrated host ... and it's not merely due to a different psychology in approaching the Blessed Sacrament.  There's something different about the entire experience, including the reaction of the senses to the elevated or glorified accidents of the Blessed Sacrament.  So there's a practice in the Eastern Rite where the faithful would go up after Divine Liturgy to receive some of the left-over (unconsecrated) altar bread.  In the Eastern Rite, they have to cut and prepare the loaves of bread, so that remnants remain outside of what's used for the Transubstantiation.  I hold that the sensation of taste is different between the two, different between receiving the consecrated bread and then consuming the unconsecrated bread from the same loaves.  Take that for what it's worth, but I am convinced that they "taste" different apart from any psychological phenomena one might try to attribute it to.  When receiving the same bread, Transubstantiated, the taste seems more sublime, elevated, less crass, beyond any differences that might be attributed to mere psychological forces.  But take that for what it's worth.

So, even though the accidents remain essentially the same, I hold that they are elevated, transformed, and glorified by their contact with the Divine Substance.  There's nothing incompatible with the accidents remaining essentially the same while being elevated, purified, and in a sense glorified by their being united by the Divine Substance, just as Our Lord's glorified and transfigured Body remained essentially the same Body He had during His entire life.  As the saying goes, grace elevates nature (without thereby destroying it).
Title: Re: Gluten free hosts
Post by: SimpleMan on January 21, 2024, 08:38:48 AM
They chemically-remove everything but the starch from the wheat to get that product. It is impossible to make "bread" with wheat starch.


1983 Canon

Can.  924 §1. The most holy eucharistic sacrifice must be offered with bread and with wine in which a little water must be mixed.
§2. The bread must be only wheat and recently made so that there is no danger of spoiling.
§3. The wine must be natural from the fruit of the vine and not spoiled.


1917 Canon

Canon 815 (1983 CIC 924)
§ 1. The bread must be pure wheat and recently made so that there is no danger of corruption.
§ 2. The wine must be a natural product of the vine and not corrupt

But does the starch remain "wheat"?

Even with conventional hosts, the wheat bran has been removed, as is the case with all white flour.  So removing part of the wheat grain doesn't seem as though it would jeopardize validity.  

This would be a good question for Aquinas.
Title: Re: Gluten free hosts
Post by: SimpleMan on January 21, 2024, 08:43:40 AM
Just on an anecdotal level, when I was a Novus Ordo altar boy, I would occasionally bring home some unconsecrated hosts from the sacristy and would eat them, sometimes playing Mass with my younger siblings. 
My son asked me if I could order some unconsecrated hosts, for him to snack on.  I told him NO, it is not good to get that familiar with something that is supposed to be set aside for confecting the Holy Eucharist.  I wouldn't go so far as to say it is sinful, but something about it just doesn't seem quite proper.

But then there is the Polish oplatki, shared with family members at Christmas time.  It is essentially the same composition and texture as the host, just cut in square sheets and impressed with devotional images.  You break it off into pieces and family members share it as a sign of devotion and unity, similar to the Orthodox antidoron.
Title: Re: Gluten free hosts
Post by: TheRealMcCoy on January 21, 2024, 08:56:08 AM
My son asked me if I could order some unconsecrated hosts, for him to snack on.  I told him NO, it is not good to get that familiar with something that is supposed to be set aside for confecting the Holy Eucharist.  I wouldn't go so far as to say it is sinful, but something about it just doesn't seem quite proper.

But then there is the Polish oplatki, shared with family members at Christmas time.  It is essentially the same composition and texture as the host, just cut in square sheets and impressed with devotional images.  You break it off into pieces and family members share it as a sign of devotion and unity, similar to the Orthodox antidoron.
I'm Polish and I have never heard of this whatsoever. I had to Google it and I was shocked because this sounds suspiciously similar to what is done with the matzah at a passover seder.  Perhaps it's a regional custom within Poland as I'm certain if it was something my very Old World Catholic grandparents were familiar with they would have passed down to my dad and us grandkids.  You learn something new every day!
Title: Re: Gluten free hosts
Post by: SimpleMan on January 21, 2024, 10:18:10 AM
I'm Polish and I have never heard of this whatsoever. I had to Google it and I was shocked because this sounds suspiciously similar to what is done with the matzah at a passover seder.  Perhaps it's a regional custom within Poland as I'm certain if it was something my very Old World Catholic grandparents were familiar with they would have passed down to my dad and us grandkids.  You learn something new every day!
Oh, yes, it's very common, at least amongst any Poles I've ever known (including my wife and son's family):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas_wafer (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas_wafer)
Title: Re: Gluten free hosts
Post by: moneil on January 21, 2024, 10:26:23 AM
My son asked me if I could order some unconsecrated hosts, for him to snack on.  I told him NO, it is not good to get that familiar with something that is supposed to be set aside for confecting the Holy Eucharist.  I wouldn't go so far as to say it is sinful, but something about it just doesn't seem quite proper.
When being prepared for First Holy Communion in 1959 the parochial school Sisters used saltine crackers (like the ones commonly put in soup) for our practice.  There maybe was one practice with the priest and unconsecrated hosts (that was a long time ago).  I does seem best to avoid any uncertainty and confusion.
Title: Re: Gluten free hosts
Post by: MiserereMei on January 21, 2024, 11:16:12 AM
My son asked me if I could order some unconsecrated hosts, for him to snack on.  I told him NO, it is not good to get that familiar with something that is supposed to be set aside for confecting the Holy Eucharist.  I wouldn't go so far as to say it is sinful, but something about it just doesn't seem quite proper.

But then there is the Polish oplatki, shared with family members at Christmas time.  It is essentially the same composition and texture as the host, just cut in square sheets and impressed with devotional images.  You break it off into pieces and family members share it as a sign of devotion and unity, similar to the Orthodox antidoron.
I haven't seen host scraps in US stores. Not uncommon in Italy, Spain or Latinamerica. "Obleas" are snacks made with the same basic ingredients and you do find them in the US in latino stores in the candy section. See pics.
Title: Re: Gluten free hosts
Post by: MiserereMei on January 21, 2024, 11:18:11 AM
I haven't seen host scraps in US stores. Not uncommon in Italy, Spain or Latinamerica. "Obleas" are snacks made with the same basic ingredients and you do find them in the US in latino stores in the candy section. See pics.
The colored ones are tortilla size. 
Title: Re: Gluten free hosts
Post by: Soubirous on January 21, 2024, 12:57:55 PM
I haven't seen host scraps in US stores. Not uncommon in Italy, Spain or Latinamerica. "Obleas" are snacks made with the same basic ingredients and you do find them in the US in latino stores in the candy section. See pics.

a. The last cloistered Carmelites in NYC, before they left town, used to sell packets of altar bread scraps in their gift shop. 

b. A variety of soft nougat called torrone is wrapped in an edible outer layer called ostia, see photo below. These were among the sweets that many convents (besides Carmelites) once produced to support themselves in the past.

(https://www.cucchiaio.it/content/dam/cucchiaio/it/ricette/2022/12/torrone/torrone-ante.jpg?im=Resize=(1968))
Title: Re: Gluten free hosts
Post by: SimpleMan on January 21, 2024, 01:50:48 PM
When being prepared for First Holy Communion in 1959 the parochial school Sisters used saltine crackers (like the ones commonly put in soup) for our practice.  There maybe was one practice with the priest and unconsecrated hosts (that was a long time ago).  I does seem best to avoid any uncertainty and confusion.

When I was preparing my son for his first communion, I would press plain white sandwich bread down flat, and then cut out small discs with a pill bottle.  Closest thing.

FWIW (and it's not much), when the self-styled "Western Orthodox" recreate what they call the "Gregorian Mass", they press leavened bread down exactly the same way, and shape it into a round disc. 

The Orthodox are so hung-up on that leavened-versus-azyme bread thing... rolling of the eyes here...
Title: Re: Gluten free hosts
Post by: Angelus on January 21, 2024, 01:52:01 PM
But does the starch remain "wheat"?

Even with conventional hosts, the wheat bran has been removed, as is the case with all white flour.  So removing part of the wheat grain doesn't seem as though it would jeopardize validity. 

This would be a good question for Aquinas.

The issue is not whether "wheat starch" is "wheat." The issue is whether something made from almost pure wheat starch can be "confected into bread" and has "the nature of bread."

White flour existed in the Roman Empire during Roman times. Removing the bran and the germ are not difficult. Separating the gluten from the starch to a level of .001% gluten is difficult.

In order to make "bread," as has been said above, a certain percentage of gluten is needed. Definitely, the flour should have well over 1% gluten for the resulting substance to be called "bread."
Title: Re: Gluten free hosts
Post by: songbird on January 21, 2024, 02:53:03 PM
In Scotland, anyone who was gluten free, was given wine. Hm? that was Pius X group
Title: Re: Gluten free hosts
Post by: Yeti on January 21, 2024, 03:06:48 PM
Nonsense.  There’s nothing contrary to Trent in considering that God would prevent the accidents from behaving in such a way as to not do harm.  In Eucharistic miracles, God changes the accidents entirely.  God can do whatever He wants.  Some saints were protected by God from being affected by poisons.
.

You can't just posit that God would work a miracle in some particular circuмstance. God decides if He wants to work a miracle, and they are very rare events and cannot be predicted by man.

This question was discussed by pre-Vatican 2 theologians and none of them said what you are saying, that a gluten-allergic person would be preserved by a miracle. On the contrary, they came up with solutions so that the person could receive communion without getting sick.

I'm not aware of any basis of your idea in traditional theology.
Title: Re: Gluten free hosts
Post by: TheRealMcCoy on January 21, 2024, 05:50:09 PM
 I was just informed there is a SSPX priest who uses a gluten-free host for his own communion. I was told this by a former sacristan.
Title: Re: Gluten free hosts
Post by: SimpleMan on January 21, 2024, 06:11:36 PM
I was just informed there is a SSPX priest who uses a gluten-free host for his own communion. I was told this by a former sacristan.
I'm assuming that his gluten sensitivity became known after ordination.  I have to think that under traditional rules, someone with a known gluten (or alcohol) sensitivity would have been irregular for ordination, in that he couldn't confect the Sacrifice without significant accommodation, and even then, he has to purify vessels and consume the contents, which would have gluten (albeit very small traces) in them.

It's probably not an issue in Newchurch, as they'll ordain anyone they can get through the seminary... unless, of course, he has a strong preference for the TLM or questions anything about Vatican II or the 60 years of its implementation.