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Author Topic: Excellent pdf on Morality of Vaccination  (Read 900 times)

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Offline donkath

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Excellent pdf on Morality of Vaccination
« on: November 10, 2021, 10:18:55 PM »
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    • The following excellent circular letter from Fr. MacDonald arrived in my mailbox today.

    The attached is good on the morality of vaccination and has the merit of being short.
    It was sent to me. I do not know who Fr. Ambrose is.



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    Offline Nadir

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    Re: Excellent pdf on Morality of Vaccination
    « Reply #1 on: November 11, 2021, 05:13:53 AM »
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    • Thank you, Donkath. This is indeed excellent. So clearly and simply explained for a layman.

    Father Ambrose’s email address is on the docuмent.

    How does one get Fr MacDonal’s circular letter?
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    Offline Seraphina

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    Re: Excellent pdf on Morality of Vaccination
    « Reply #2 on: November 11, 2021, 05:18:14 AM »
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    • Yes, I’ve seen this.  It’s far better than the lame article by the SSPX which basically says, “The vaccine is developed from abortive fetal cells, which makes it immoral, but possibly moral, maybe, so make up your own mind and let’s not mention this again.”
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    Online Miser Peccator

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    Re: Excellent pdf on Morality of Vaccination
    « Reply #3 on: November 11, 2021, 05:57:38 AM »
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    • Quote from: Seraphina on November 11, 2021, 05:18:14 AM
    Yes, I’ve seen this.  It’s far better than the lame article by the SSPX which basically says, “The vaccine is developed from abortive fetal cells, which makes it immoral, but possibly moral, maybe, so make up your own mind and let’s not mention this again.”


    LOL  I like that synopsis!  :laugh1:
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Excellent pdf on Morality of Vaccination
    « Reply #4 on: November 11, 2021, 06:12:51 AM »
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    • We know that there's no proportionality between the jab and COVID.  Jab is neither safe nor effective.  COVID is not that dangerous for the vast majority of people.

    I believe that the scenario SSPX argue from in terms of the justifying necessity is ..

    "If I don't get the jab, I'll lose my job."

    OR

    "If I don't get the jab, I can't travel and (for some) take care of the faithful."

    So these involved acquiescing to the unjust mandates.

    Nevertheless, I do not buy that this is a case of remote material cooperation.  I've made the analogy of buying a stolen car.  You did not indeed participate in the original theft, but you become a formal participant in the crime because you remain in unjust possession of something that belongs to someone else.  In other words, you are in fact committing theft.  That is the argument made by Father Ripperger, and I came up with it independently here on CI.  In addition, by purchasing a stolen vehicle, you are participating in creating a market for said hot cars, and providing a motivation for the thieves to keep stealing.  If there were no market for the car, they would stop stealing.  So you become a two-fold formal participant in the crime.  That was the argument from +Schneider, that you become a participant in the abortion INDUSTRY.  This is NOT "remote material cooperation".  This is formal cooperation.
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Excellent pdf on Morality of Vaccination
    « Reply #5 on: November 11, 2021, 06:26:43 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on November 11, 2021, 06:12:51 AM
    Nevertheless, I do not buy that this is a case of remote material cooperation. 

    To me, this is the million dollar question, and as best I can tell this far, the answer to it hinges on how one defines “formal.”

    If formal simply mean intention, then it would seem to be remote material cooperation.

    If formal means causal proximity, then that’s a whole different breed of cat.
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    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Excellent pdf on Morality of Vaccination
    « Reply #6 on: November 11, 2021, 06:57:47 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on November 11, 2021, 06:12:51 AM
    We know that there's no proportionality between the jab and COVID.  Jab is neither safe nor effective.  COVID is not that dangerous for the vast majority of people.

    I believe that the scenario SSPX argue from in terms of the justifying necessity is ..

    "If I don't get the jab, I'll lose my job."

    OR

    "If I don't get the jab, I can't travel and (for some) take care of the faithful."

    So these involved acquiescing to the unjust mandates.

    Do they, or any of their priests, say this? 

    Even if so, it's pretty cowardly to keep retreating, keep compromising, for no good reason. It's not like the Powers That Be have EVER gotten away with anything CLOSE to this before. If anything EVER had a chance of success when fighting back, it would be this!

    But well-said about the proportionality. The Jab is ineffective and proven quite unsafe. 

    For all we know, the serious cases of COVID we could list were CAUSED by the jab -- i.e., shedding from idiots who took the injection! Remember that.
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    Offline StLouisIX

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    Re: Excellent pdf on Morality of Vaccination
    « Reply #7 on: November 11, 2021, 12:23:41 PM »
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    • Quote from: Matthew on November 11, 2021, 06:57:47 AM
    Do they, or any of their priests, say this?

    Even if so, it's pretty cowardly to keep retreating, keep compromising, for no good reason. It's not like the Powers That Be have EVER gotten away with anything CLOSE to this before. If anything EVER had a chance of success when fighting back, it would be this!

    But well-said about the proportionality. The Jab is ineffective and proven quite unsafe.

    For all we know, the serious cases of COVID we could list were CAUSED by the jab -- i.e., shedding from idiots who took the injection! Remember that.

    Kennedy Hall has argued along these lines. I reposted his article from Crisis Magazine on this subject and provided the link on this thread: https://www.cathinfo.com/crisis-in-the-church/above-all-things-charity-(on-the-potion)/msg777686/#msg777686

    He also presented his position on Restoring the Faith Media's "The Rundown" - note that the other commentators didn't agree with him, if I am remembering this correctly. Haven't watched this one in a while. Start at 45:55 in the video:

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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Excellent pdf on Morality of Vaccination
    « Reply #8 on: November 11, 2021, 12:29:42 PM »
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    • Quote from: Matthew on November 11, 2021, 06:57:47 AM
    Do they, or any of their priests, say this?

    Even if so, it's pretty cowardly to keep retreating, keep compromising, for no good reason. It's not like the Powers That Be have EVER gotten away with anything CLOSE to this before. If anything EVER had a chance of success when fighting back, it would be this!

    But well-said about the proportionality. The Jab is ineffective and proven quite unsafe.

    For all we know, the serious cases of COVID we could list were CAUSED by the jab -- i.e., shedding from idiots who took the injection! Remember that.

    I'm pretty sure that was the import of Fr. Szelegny's paper.  I'll have to find his paper again to be able to confirm.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Excellent pdf on Morality of Vaccination
    « Reply #9 on: November 11, 2021, 12:37:13 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on November 11, 2021, 06:26:43 AM
    To me, this is the million dollar question, and as best I can tell this far, the answer to it hinges on how one defines “formal.”

    If formal simply mean intention, then it would seem to be remote material cooperation.

    If formal means causal proximity, then that’s a whole different breed of cat.

    I've argued precisely this, that the notion of "formal" meaning intention has been abused and misapplied now for a couple hundred years.

    If you are a CAUSE of something, then you are a formal cooperator.  Now, if it was not your will to do this, then you are not culpable or guilty of it.  But you were still a formal cooperator.

    I've used this example before.  I put a loaded gun up to someone's head and pull the trigger, but in my mind I say "I do not intend for this person to die."  Does that make you only a "material" participant in the person's death?

    If I drive an abortion doctor to an appointment to perform an abortion, knowing full well that's what he's planning on doing, but I think to myself "well, I really don't agree with the abortion and wish he wouldn't go through with it."  That doesn't make me just a material cooperator, since I am actually a CAUSE of the abortion about to take place.  Now, if he could have gotten there some other way, e.g. calling an uber, then I was not a necessary cause, but I was still a sufficient cause.  But if he had no other transportation options, then I become a necessary cause, a sine qua non.

    I believe that moral theology needs to be rethought regarding what is objectively sinful in terms of cause and effect.  "Intention" has a place only in the internal forum.  So, for example, if someone grabs my hand and makes me shoot that person in the head, then I didn't intend it.  Objectively, my pulling the trigger however was a grave act, but I am not culpable for it.  That should not, however, mitigate the OBJECTIVE gravity of what just happened ... it was still a murder and a grave matter.

    So objective moral theology:  cause + effect.
    Subjective moral theology:  intention + will.
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Excellent pdf on Morality of Vaccination
    « Reply #10 on: November 11, 2021, 12:45:42 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on November 11, 2021, 12:37:13 PM
    If you are a CAUSE of something, then you are a formal cooperator. 

    But you can't be an ex post facto cause of an antecedant act (i.e., I can't be a cause of an event which was completed before my birth).
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    Online Miser Peccator

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    Re: Excellent pdf on Morality of Vaccination
    « Reply #11 on: November 11, 2021, 04:37:10 PM »
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    • There is also this:

    Thou Shall Not Kill

    Would you put a gun to your head and play Russian Roulette if the government told you it was safe and you have to do it?
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    Offline Maskedmarauder89

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    Re: Excellent pdf on Morality of Vaccination
    « Reply #12 on: November 11, 2021, 05:15:56 PM »
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    • More products using fetal cells
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    Offline Emile

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    Re: Excellent pdf on Morality of Vaccination
    « Reply #13 on: November 11, 2021, 05:48:34 PM »
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    Offline Marion

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    Re: Excellent pdf on Morality of Vaccination
    « Reply #14 on: November 11, 2021, 06:23:38 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on November 11, 2021, 12:37:13 PM
    I've argued precisely this, that the notion of "formal" meaning intention has been abused and misapplied now for a couple hundred years.

    If you are a CAUSE of something, then you are a formal cooperator.  Now, if it was not your will to do this, then you are not culpable or guilty of it.  But you were still a formal cooperator.

    I've used this example before.  I put a loaded gun up to someone's head and pull the trigger, but in my mind I say "I do not intend for this person to die."  Does that make you only a "material" participant in the person's death?

    There are two finalities, two final causes:

    - the intention, called finis operantis
    - the (planned, moral) action, called finis operis

    The principle of double effect mustn't be applied if the finis operis involves a (foreseeable) consequence which is evil per se.

    Otherwise, the principle of double effect would/could be used to justify the unjustifiable, to justify what per se can't be justified.
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