Author Topic: Any vegans here? (Read 9194 times)

tradosaurus · « **Reply #60 on:** November 13, 2017, 08:11:15 AM »

I am trying to follow a vegan (plant based) diet after watching many youtube videos by long term plant based advocates, Dr. Neil Bernard, Dr. John Mcdougall, Dr. Esselstyn, and others.

I've also seen many videos of how cows, pigs, and chickens are treated before being slaughtered. I think anyone who advocated meat and dairy should be required to visit these facilities.

Cancer and heart disease are directly related to consumption of meat and dairy. As Dr. Esselstyn states "Heart disease need never to exist and is 100% preventable"

Jaynek · « **Reply #61 on:** November 13, 2017, 08:26:53 AM »

Quote from: tradosaurus on November 13, 2017, 08:11:15 AM

I am trying to follow a vegan (plant based) diet after watching many youtube videos by long term plant based advocates, Dr. Neil Bernard, Dr. John Mcdougall, Dr. Esselstyn, and others.

I've also seen many videos of how cows, pigs, and chickens are treated before being slaughtered. I think anyone who advocated meat and dairy should be required to visit these facilities.

Cancer and heart disease are directly related to consumption of meat and dairy. As Dr. Esselstyn states "Heart disease need never to exist and is 100% preventable"

I agree that there are serious problems with conventional meat production at this time. This is why I buy my meat from alternative sources.

The dietary factor with the most impact on cancer and heart disease is consumption of sugar. This would be the thing to change for those concerned about their health.

Neither of your points is an especially good reason to be vegan.

tradosaurus · « **Reply #62 on:** November 13, 2017, 08:32:35 AM »

Quote from: Jaynek on November 13, 2017, 08:26:53 AM

I agree that there are serious problems with conventional meat production at this time. This is why I buy my meat from alternative sources.
The dietary factor with the most impact on cancer and heart disease is consumption of sugar. This would be the thing to change for those concerned about their health.
Neither of your points is an especially good reason to be vegan.

Read or watch information by these Doctors. There have been studies with patients that have eliminated heart disease by adhering to a plant based diet. Refined sugar is bad in large doses but natural sugars are inherently good (those in fruits).
Educate yourself first before cementing an opinion.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_China_Study

Jaynek · « **Reply #63 on:** November 13, 2017, 08:52:20 AM »

I hope you won't take it as correcting you if I cite an article:

Quote

Over a year ago I wrote about , a book by T. Colin Campbell and his son based on a huge epidemiologic study of diet and health done in China. The book’s major thesis is that we could prevent or cure most disease (heart disease, cancer, diabetes, autoimmune diseases, bone, kidney, eye and other diseases) by eating a whole foods plant-based diet, drastically reducing our protein intake, and avoiding meat and dairy products entirely.

I noticed a number of things in the book that bothered me. I found evidence of sloppy citations, cherry-picked references, omission of data that contradicted the thesis, and recommendations that went beyond the data. I concluded:
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He marshals a lot of evidence, but is it sufficient to support his recommendation that everyone give up animal protein entirely, including dairy products? I don’t think so.
The China Study involved 367 variables and 8,000 correlations. I said I would leave it to others to comment on the study design and the statistical analysis, and now someone has done just that. Denise Minger devoted a month and a half to examining the raw data to see how closely Campbell’s claims aligned with the data he drew from; she found many weaknesses and errors.
Campbell says
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Plasma cholesterol… is positively associated with most cancer mortality rates. Plasma cholesterol is positively associated with animal protein intake and inversely associated with plant protein intake.
The data do show that cholesterol is positively associated with various cancers, that cholesterol is positively associated with animal protein, and that cholesterol is negatively associated with plant protein. So by indirect deduction they assume that animal protein is associated with cancers and that reducing intake is protective. But if you compare animal protein intake directly with cancer, there are as many negative correlations as positive, and not one of those correlations reaches a level of statistical significance. Comparing dietary plant protein to various types of cancer, there are many more positive correlations and one of them does show strong statistical significance. The variable “death from all cancers” is four times as strongly associated with plant protein as with animal protein. And Campbell fails to mention an important confounder: cholesterol is higher in geographic areas with a higher incidence of schistosomiasis and hepatitis B infection, both risk factors for cancer.

Campbell says breast cancer is associated with dietary fat (which is associated with animal protein intake). The data show a non-significant association with dietary fat, but stronger (still non-significant) associations with several other factors and a significant association with wine, alcohol, and blood glucose level. The (non-significant) association of breast cancer with legume intake is virtually identical to the (non-significant) association with dietary fat. Animal protein itself shows a weaker correlation with breast cancer than light-colored vegetables, legume intake, fruit, and a number of other purportedly healthy plant foods.)

He indicts animal protein as being correlated with cardiovascular disease, but fails to mention that plant protein is more strongly correlated and wheat protein is far, far more strongly correlated. The China Study data show the opposite of what Campbell claims: animal protein doesn’t correspond with more disease, even in the highest animal food-eating counties.
These are just a couple of examples. Minger found many more, which she describes in her long article, complete with impressive graphs. Her exposé is well worth reading in its entirety, if only as a demonstration of how to think about epidemiologic data.

Minger goes on to reveal gaping logical holes in Campbell’s own research on casein, a milk protein that he believes causes cancer. He showed that casein was associated with cancer when given in isolation to lab animals, but he projects those results onto humans and onto all sources of animal protein. Other animal proteins have been shown to have anti-cancer effects, and the results of a normal diet containing multiple protein sources are likely to be very different from his casein-only studies.
Minger concludes
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I believe Campbell was influenced by his own expectations about animal protein and disease, leading him to seek out specific correlations in the China Study data (and elsewhere) to confirm his predictions.
She is being polite.

This is a cautionary tale. It shows how complex issues can be over-simplified into meaninglessness, how epidemiologic data can be misinterpreted and mislead us, and how a researcher can approach a problem with preconceptions that allow him to see only what he wants to see. The China Study was embraced by vegetarians because it seemed to support their beliefs with strong evidence. Minger has shown that that evidence is largely illusory. The issues raised are important and deserve further study by unbiased scientists. At any rate, one thing is clear: the China Study is not sufficient reason to recommend drastic reductions in protein intake, let alone total avoidance of meat and dairy foods.

https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/the-china-study-revisited/

Jovita · « **Reply #64 on:** November 13, 2017, 09:27:19 AM »

Refined sugars are poison much like alcohol is to our system. I was convinced over 20 years ago after reading William Duffy's Sugar Blues and other research when my 'doctor' told me there was nothing I could do to prevent my hypoglycemia from becoming full blown diabetes. I do not have either malady today. My doctor has been Dr. McDougall, aforementioned. I am also glad to say I do not suffer maladies that my age-mates suffer from and am not on any medications. Which of themselves can be toxic. Read Dr. Leo Galland's Four Pillars of Healing.

jen51 · « **Reply #65 on:** November 13, 2017, 11:17:54 AM »

Quote from: tradosaurus on November 13, 2017, 08:11:15 AM

I've also seen many videos of how cows, pigs, and chickens are treated before being slaughtered. I think anyone who advocated meat and dairy should be required to visit these facilities.

There are some facilities that treat animals terribly, and shame on them. But they are the minority. I was born and raised on a farm that produced cattle, I have worked in the beef industry and have visited many farms in the Midwest. My husband is the same. He currently works both at a convential dairy and a raw milk dairy. The average farmer and rancher cares for their livestock, and goes to large efforts of work and expense to make sure they are healthy and happy as can be reasonable while still making a profit. YouTube is rife with videos using the footage from unethical farms to drive an agenda that is both politically and morally degenerate. Docuмentaries like food inc drive me up the wall. This kind of media is undoubtedly written and produced by people who know nothing of the ins and outs of farming, or Have not spoken with or observed what really goes on with MOST livestock. And you know what this creates? Assenine laws created by people in corporate offices that have likely never stepped foot on a farm. This puts unnecessary burden on the farmer, especially the smaller farmers. For this reason many mom and pop operations throw in the towel and the corporate farms gain in momentum. That is how we get cows getting milked by robots, and dairy coops that regulate what you can and cannot do, all with the guise of health and safety.
Veganism IS, to its core, politically charged. If doing it for health reasons, please be cautious of this.
On a different note, the most current research is showing that heart issues are not in fact related to meat and dairy. Much of this research is spurned by the government and big pharma, as it can and will make their pocket books much more thin. I'd suggest reading some information on the Weston A. Price website. They offer a lot of information on research based nutrition and sound analysis on the politics of food.

Meg · « **Reply #66 on:** November 13, 2017, 11:30:15 AM »

There are good posts on both sides of the issue.

I was a vegetarian for about 25 years, and a vegan for some of that time, due to a dairy allergy.
But after converting to Catholicism, I began to eat meat again, though not very often. I love fish. Yummy!

There have been Catholics such as Franciscans who have consumed very little or no meat. That's okay, IMO. But the average person does need vitamin B-12, which can only been had from dairy products, or in a supplement form.

Zinc, to my knowledge, is only available from meat, or supplement form. Some vegetarians are low in zinc, which can lead to health problems.

If one is suffering from cancer, or from an auto-immune disease, then it might be a good idea to lower one's consumption of meat, and eat natural foods. Just my opinion.

Matto · « **Reply #67 on:** November 13, 2017, 12:01:55 PM »

Quote from: tradosaurus on November 13, 2017, 08:11:15 AM

I am trying to follow a vegan (plant based) diet after watching many youtube videos by long term plant based advocates, Dr. Neil Bernard, Dr. John Mcdougall, Dr. Esselstyn, and others.

. . .

Cancer and heart disease are directly related to consumption of meat and dairy. As Dr. Esselstyn states "Heart disease need never to exist and is 100% preventable"

I am eating a lot less meat and dairy and eggs now. I am trying to lose weight and also be more simple and penitential. I have had success with a high-carb mostly plant food diet and at times eating less food like during lent. But if I did stop eating animal foods completely I would not call myself a vegan because of the political baggage. I plan on continuing to eat how I am eating when I am done losing weight although I figure I will have to eat a larger quantity of food than I am eating now.

As for reasons to be a vegan I would say it can be good to eat less meat like many of the monks and saints did. As for the arguments the vegans make the one that I think is best is that it takes a lot more farmland to support an animal food based diet than it does to support a vegan diet. So if everyone were to suddenly change to an atkins type diet there would not be enough farmland to feed everyone. So because of limited resources most people will have to eat their bread or their bowl of rice anyway.

jen51 · « **Reply #68 on:** November 13, 2017, 12:58:09 PM »

Quote from: Matto on November 13, 2017, 12:01:55 PM

...It takes a lot more farmland to support an animal food based diet than it does to support a vegan diet. So if everyone were to suddenly change to an atkins type diet there would not be enough farmland to feed everyone. So because of limited resources most people will have to eat their bread or their bowl of rice anyway.

This is a good point, and one that ought to be considered.
Humans have been eating grains since the beginning. It takes far less resources to grow a pound of wheat than a pound of meat. The problem with grains these days is that we most often eat it in a refined form, and it lacks the nutrients to support optimal health. Too, modern grain does not have the same genetic makeup as the grain of our ancestors. And lastly, our culture has lost the knowledge of how to properly prepare whole grains. Our ancestors knew that grain needed to be soaked or fermented before eating or it causes poor digestion, poor nutrient absorption, and can lead to serious ailments.
IMO the best nutritional plan is to eat a well balanced diet. Cutting out whole food groups isn't the way to go.

Nadir · « **Reply #69 on:** November 13, 2017, 02:23:09 PM »

Quote from: Meg on November 13, 2017, 11:30:15 AM

But the average person does need vitamin B-12, which can only been had from dairy products, or in a supplement form.

Zinc, to my knowledge, is only available from meat, or supplement form. Some vegetarians are low in zinc, which can lead to health problems.

If one is suffering from cancer, or from an auto-immune disease, then it might be a good idea to lower one's consumption of meat, and eat natural foods. Just my opinion.

B12 is available from green leafy vegies, cauliflower and fermented foods.
Zinc is available from Pumpkin Seeds, Chickpeas, Cocoa Powder, Cashews, Kefir, Yoghurt, Mushrooms, Spinach.

Meg · « **Reply #70 on:** November 13, 2017, 02:27:13 PM »

Quote from: Nadir on November 13, 2017, 02:23:09 PM

B12 is available from green leafy vegies, cauliflower and fermented foods.
Zinc is available from Pumpkin Seeds, Chickpeas, Cocoa Powder, Cashews, Kefir, Yoghurt, Mushrooms, Spinach.

In sufficient quantities for the minimum daily allowance, from what a person would normally consume in a daily diet?

Nadir · « **Reply #71 on:** November 13, 2017, 03:02:54 PM »

Quote from: Meg on November 13, 2017, 02:27:13 PM

In sufficient quantities for the minimum daily allowance, from what a person would normally consume in a daily diet?

I don't know. I never even think about minimum daily allowances. I was just letting you that there are non-meat and non-dairy alternatives.

Quote

vitamin B-12, which can only been had from dairy products, or in a supplement form…Zinc, to my knowledge, is only available from meat, or supplement form.

Meg · « **Reply #72 on:** November 13, 2017, 03:29:45 PM »

Quote from: Nadir on November 13, 2017, 03:02:54 PM

I don't know. I never even think about minimum daily allowances. I was just letting you that there are non-meat and non-dairy alternatives.

Okay, you're right. I was wrong to say that zinc could only be had from meat. However, most vegetarians that I know don't really give much thought to taking in enough zinc in one day. You'd have to consume 1 and 1/3 cups of pumpkin seeds a day to get enough zinc from pumpkin seeds alone.

tradosaurus · « **Reply #73 on:** November 13, 2017, 04:03:03 PM »

Quote from: Meg on November 13, 2017, 02:27:13 PM

In sufficient quantities for the minimum daily allowance, from what a person would normally consume in a daily diet?

The B12 argument is used as a tactic to convince people that meat and dairy are necessary.
Humans historically got B12 from eating vegetables, fruits and drinking fresh water from springs and streams, or by farming and then eating without washing their hands. Since we no longer do these things, “natural” plant based sources of Vitamin B-12 have dropped out of modern life.
In the modern day, our produce is heavily sanitized and chemically cleaned to meet retail standards, and subsequently the B12 (bacteria) removed.
The "natural" way of consuming B12 - from unwashed vegetables and unfiltered water - isn't safe for humans because there are also other less desirable bacterias present in these places such as E. coli and salmonella. So in the modern world it's much safer to just get our B12 from a supplement.
So what is B12 and why is it important?
Wikepedia: "B12 is a water-soluble vitamin that has a key role in the normal functioning of the brain and nervous system via the synthesis of myelin, and the formation of red blood cells. It is one of eight B vitamins."
Even meat is fortified with B12 these days, as it is unnaturally raised and animals become deficient. That said, cows and pigs tend to eat their own poop (accidentally mostly,) so they tend to always retain some B12.

So, go vegan and take a B12 supplement as needed.

tradosaurus · « **Reply #74 on:** November 13, 2017, 04:22:49 PM »

Quote from: Jaynek on November 13, 2017, 08:52:20 AM

I hope you won't take it as correcting you if I cite an article:

https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/the-china-study-revisited/

You can certainly find critics of any study, pro or con on meat vs plant based. I'm convinced that meat and dairy are harmful based on my own experience as well as the appearance of plant based practitioners. I have more energy at 52 and can play full court basketball with younger guys. The plant based practitioners are generally slim and look healthy. My blood pressure was the lowest I have ever remember (112/69).
You rarely if ever see an obese person eating a plant based diet. While any obese person is most likely a meat and dairy consumer.
The fact that it takes more land and water resources to provide meat and dairy products should be enough to give it up. The fact that God did not design humans to be carnivores should be another.
It's really a no-brainer.

Author Topic: Any vegans here? (Read 9194 times)

tradosaurus

Re: Any vegans here?

Jaynek

Re: Any vegans here?

tradosaurus

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Jaynek

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Jovita

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jen51

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Meg

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Matto

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jen51

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Nadir

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Meg

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Nadir

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Meg

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tradosaurus

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tradosaurus

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