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Author Topic: Zodiac signs Question  (Read 2635 times)

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Offline Skylar

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Zodiac signs Question
« on: November 04, 2015, 07:06:02 PM »
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  • Fine, tell me if this needs to be moved somewhere else.
    Zodiac signs are popular as you know, and although I myself have never put my nose to the task of sniffling them, I'd like to know if they are wrong?
    I mean is it wrong to look at what Cancer, etc means?
    Being a younger, wild person it would be a fun topic for me with my friends, so I'd like to know your opinions as Catholics.
    Okay, another thing, I really heartily don't approve of some trad's highly negative, doom and dirt comments which they seem to take happiness.
    So please answer me, but I kindly ask you not to put too much darkness on the whole tale.
    Thank you very much.


    Offline Kephapaulos

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    Zodiac signs Question
    « Reply #1 on: November 04, 2015, 07:55:00 PM »
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  • I've wondered about this myself, although I know that God can use signs in the heavens to indicate what may come to pass. As far as the stars in themselves determining what happens is superstitious though.
    "Non nobis, Domine, non nobis; sed nomini tuo da gloriam..." (Ps. 113:9)


    Offline Skylar

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    Zodiac signs Question
    « Reply #2 on: November 04, 2015, 08:00:56 PM »
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  • yeah, I got that, but zodiac signs seem to be more directed at personalities. like...the Chinese thing.

    Offline OHCA

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    Zodiac signs Question
    « Reply #3 on: November 04, 2015, 08:10:12 PM »
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  • Quote from: Skylar
    Fine, tell me if this needs to be moved somewhere else.
    Zodiac signs are popular as you know, and although I myself have never put my nose to the task of sniffling them, I'd like to know if they are wrong?
    I mean is it wrong to look at what Cancer, etc means?
    Being a younger, wild person it would be a fun topic for me with my friends, so I'd like to know your opinions as Catholics.
    Okay, another thing, I really heartily don't approve of some trad's highly negative, doom and dirt comments which they seem to take happiness.
    So please answer me, but I kindly ask you not to put too much darkness on the whole tale.
    Thank you very much.


    Zodiacs and horoscopes are mortally sinful.  Us ole party-pooping Catholics tend to discuss such "fun topics" in a highly negative manner with a bunch of doom and dirt comments.  And I could care less that you don't heartily approve my "put[ting] too much darkness on the whole tale" (emphasis added) by telling you that it's something that will damn unrepentant souls.  So now you know--what you do with the knowledge is your business.  If you're inclined to disregard the knowledge because I'm an ass and didn't present all tender & gentle or whatever, I sincerely hope you live long enough to outgrow that mindset.

    Offline Cantarella

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    Zodiac signs Question
    « Reply #4 on: November 04, 2015, 08:54:22 PM »
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  • St. Thomas warns us to be careful about astrology in general, mostly because the Devil uses it to bring souls under his influence or control. "If anyone take observation of the stars in order to foreknow casual or fortuitous future events, or to know with certitude future human actions, his conduct is based on a false and vain opinion; and so the operation of the demon introduces itself therein, wherefore it will be a superstitious and unlawful divination. On the other hand if one were to apply the observation of the stars in order to foreknow those future things that are caused by heavenly bodies, for instance, drought or rain and so forth, it will be neither an unlawful nor a superstitious divination".


    Also, great St Augustine teaches: "When astrologers tell the truth, it must be allowed that this is due to an instinct that, unknown to man, lies hidden in his mind. And since this happens through the action of unclean and lying spirits who desire to deceive man for they are permitted to know certain things about temporal affairs." Wherefore he concludes: "Thus a good Christian should beware of astrologers, and of all impious diviners, especially of those who tell the truth, lest his soul become the dupe of the demons and by making a compact of partnership with them enmesh itself in their fellowship."


    Quote from: Summa Theologica

    Article 5. Whether divination by the stars is unlawful?

    Objection 1. It would seem that divination by the stars is not unlawful. It is lawful to foretell effects by observing their causes: thus a physician foretells death from the disposition of the disease. Now the heavenly bodies are the cause of what takes place in the world, according to Dionysius (Div. Nom. iv). Therefore divination by the stars is not unlawful.

    Objection 2. Further, human science originates from experiments, according to the Philosopher (Metaph. i, 1). Now it has been discovered through many experiments that the observation of the stars is a means whereby some future events may be known beforehand. Therefore it would seem not unlawful to make use of this kind of divination.

    Objection 3. Further, divination is declared to be unlawful in so far as it is based on a compact made with the demons. But divination by the stars contains nothing of the kind, but merely an observation of God's creatures. Therefore it would seem that this species of divination is not unlawful.

    On the contrary, Augustine says (Confess. iv, 3): "Those astrologers whom they call mathematicians, I consulted without scruple; because they seemed to use no sacrifice, nor to pray to any spirit for their divinations which art, however, Christian and true piety rejects and condemns."

    I answer that, As stated above (1 and 2), the operation of the demon thrusts itself into those divinations which are based on false and vain opinions, in order that man's mind may become entangled in vanity and falsehood. Now one makes use of a vain and false opinion if, by observing the stars, one desires to foreknow the future that cannot be forecast by their means. Wherefore we must consider what things can be foreknown by observing the stars: and it is evident that those things which happen of necessity can be foreknown by this mean,: even so astrologers forecast a future eclipse.

    However, with regard to the foreknowledge of future events acquired by observing the stars there have been various opinions. For some have stated that the stars signify rather than cause the things foretold by means of their observation. But this is an unreasonable statement: since every corporeal sign is either the effect of that for which it stands (thus smoke signifies fire whereby it is caused), or it proceeds from the same cause, so that by signifying the cause, in consequence it signifies the effect (thus a rainbow is sometimes a sign of fair weather, in so far as its cause is the cause of fair weather). Now it cannot be said that the dispositions and movements of the heavenly bodies are the effect of future events; nor again can they be ascribed to some common higher cause of a corporeal nature, although they are referable to a common higher cause, which is divine providence. on the contrary the appointment of the movements and positions of the heavenly bodies by divine providence is on a different principle from the appointment of the occurrence of future contingencies, because the former are appointed on a principle of necessity, so that they always occur in the same way, whereas the latter are appointed on a principle of contingency, so that the manner of their occurrence is variable. Consequently it is impossible to acquire foreknowledge of the future from an observation of the stars, except in so far as effects can be foreknown from their causes.

    Now two kinds of effects escape the causality of heavenly bodies. On the first place all effects that occur accidentally, whether in human affairs or in the natural order, since, as it is proved in Metaph. vi [Ed. Did. v, 3, an accidental being has no cause, least of all a natural cause, such as is the power of a heavenly body, because what occurs accidentally, neither is a "being" properly speaking, nor is "one"--for instance, that an earthquake occur when a stone falls, or that a treasure be discovered when a man digs a grave--for these and like occurrences are not one thing, but are simply several things. Whereas the operation of nature has always some one thing for its term, just as it proceeds from some one principle, which is the form of a natural thing.

    In the second place, acts of the free-will, which is the faculty of will and reason, escape the causality of heavenly bodies. For the intellect or reason is not a body, nor the act of a bodily organ, and consequently neither is the will, since it is in the reason, as the Philosopher shows (De Anima iii, 4,9). Now no body can make an impression on an incorporeal body. Wherefore it is impossible for heavenly bodies to make a direct impression on the intellect and will: for this would be to deny the difference between intellect and sense, with which position Aristotle reproaches (De Anima iii, 3) those who held that "such is the will of man, as is the day which the father of men and of gods," i.e. the sun or the heavens, "brings on" [Odyssey xviii, 135].

    Hence the heavenly bodies cannot be the direct cause of the free-will's operations. Nevertheless they can be a dispositive cause of an inclination to those operations, in so far as they make an impression on the human body, and consequently on the sensitive powers which are acts of bodily organs having an inclination for human acts. Since, however, the sensitive powers obey reason, as the Philosopher shows (De Anima iii, 11; Ethic. i, 13), this does not impose any necessity on the free-will, and man is able, by his reason, to act counter to the inclination of the heavenly bodies.

    Accordingly if anyone take observation of the stars in order to foreknow casual or fortuitous future events, or to know with certitude future human actions, his conduct is based on a false and vain opinion; and so the operation of the demon introduces itself therein, wherefore it will be a superstitious and unlawful divination. On the other hand if one were to apply the observation of the stars in order to foreknow those future things that are caused by heavenly bodies, for instance, drought or rain and so forth, it will be neither an unlawful nor a superstitious divination.

    Wherefore the Reply to the First Objection is evident.

    Reply to Objection 2. That astrologers not unfrequently forecast the truth by observing the stars may be explained in two ways. First, because a great number of men follow their bodily passions, so that their actions are for the most part disposed in accordance with the inclination of the heavenly bodies: while there are few, namely, the wise alone, who moderate these inclinations by their reason. The result is that astrologers in many cases foretell the truth, especially in public occurrences which depend on the multitude. Secondly, because of the interference of the demons. Hence Augustine says (Gen. ad lit. ii, 17): "When astrologers tell the truth, it must be allowed that this is due to an instinct that, unknown to man, lies hidden in his mind. And since this happens through the action of unclean and lying spirits who desire to deceive man for they are permitted to know certain things about temporal affairs." Wherefore he concludes: "Thus a good Christian should beware of astrologers, and of all impious diviners, especially of those who tell the truth, lest his soul become the dupe of the demons and by making a compact of partnership with them enmesh itself in their fellowship."

    This suffices for the Reply to the Third Objection.

    http://www.newadvent.org/summa/3095.htm#article5
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.


    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Zodiac signs Question
    « Reply #5 on: November 04, 2015, 09:09:31 PM »
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  • Quote from: Skylar
    yeah, I got that, but zodiac signs seem to be more directed at personalities. like...the Chinese thing.


    If used for these purposes, I think Zodiac signs are useful.  A la Meyer-Briggs or the study of temperaments.  

    The danger is in actual astrology, which is regarding the Zodiac as a sort of psychic tool by which the future can be divined, and by which moral decisions are made.  This is of what St. Thomas speaks, and this is definitely without justification.

    Identifying that people born during certain times and under certain conditions have certain personality traits, quirks, and tendencies is not at all divination.
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Offline Skylar

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    Zodiac signs Question
    « Reply #6 on: November 04, 2015, 09:28:23 PM »
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  • Quote from: OHCA
    Quote from: Skylar
    Fine, tell me if this needs to be moved somewhere else.
    Zodiac signs are popular as you know, and although I myself have never put my nose to the task of sniffling them, I'd like to know if they are wrong?
    I mean is it wrong to look at what Cancer, etc means?
    Being a younger, wild person it would be a fun topic for me with my friends, so I'd like to know your opinions as Catholics.
    Okay, another thing, I really heartily don't approve of some trad's highly negative, doom and dirt comments which they seem to take happiness.
    So please answer me, but I kindly ask you not to put too much darkness on the whole tale.
    Thank you very much.


    Zodiacs and horoscopes are mortally sinful.  Us ole party-pooping Catholics tend to discuss such "fun topics" in a highly negative manner with a bunch of doom and dirt comments.  And I could care less that you don't heartily approve my "put[ting] too much darkness on the whole tale" (emphasis added) by telling you that it's something that will damn unrepentant souls.  So now you know--what you do with the knowledge is your business.  If you're inclined to disregard the knowledge because I'm an ass and didn't present all tender & gentle or whatever, I sincerely hope you live long enough to outgrow that mindset.


    Hehe. Nice reaction. Thankfully, you overrated your whole paragraph to make it not at all irritable.
    Can't call you old, sorry. I don't know. I never asked you to make it gentle. Just no stabbing the thing to death with doom and gloom.

    Whoohoo! Thanks, Mith! What I wanted to know! Muchos gracias.

    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Zodiac signs Question
    « Reply #7 on: November 04, 2015, 09:40:17 PM »
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  • Quote from: Skylar
    Quote from: OHCA
    Quote from: Skylar
    Fine, tell me if this needs to be moved somewhere else.
    Zodiac signs are popular as you know, and although I myself have never put my nose to the task of sniffling them, I'd like to know if they are wrong?
    I mean is it wrong to look at what Cancer, etc means?
    Being a younger, wild person it would be a fun topic for me with my friends, so I'd like to know your opinions as Catholics.
    Okay, another thing, I really heartily don't approve of some trad's highly negative, doom and dirt comments which they seem to take happiness.
    So please answer me, but I kindly ask you not to put too much darkness on the whole tale.
    Thank you very much.


    Zodiacs and horoscopes are mortally sinful.  Us ole party-pooping Catholics tend to discuss such "fun topics" in a highly negative manner with a bunch of doom and dirt comments.  And I could care less that you don't heartily approve my "put[ting] too much darkness on the whole tale" (emphasis added) by telling you that it's something that will damn unrepentant souls.  So now you know--what you do with the knowledge is your business.  If you're inclined to disregard the knowledge because I'm an ass and didn't present all tender & gentle or whatever, I sincerely hope you live long enough to outgrow that mindset.


    Hehe. Nice reaction. Thankfully, you overrated your whole paragraph to make it not at all irritable.
    Can't call you old, sorry. I don't know. I never asked you to make it gentle. Just no stabbing the thing to death with doom and gloom.

    Whoohoo! Thanks, Mith! What I wanted to know! Muchos gracias.


    My pleasure.

    I would add, that since you mentioned a "wild past" that involved Zodiac study, it would probably be in your best interest to tread lightly and be sure that any use really is simply for communicative purposes.  Just like virtually all other tools in the universe, this one can be misused and become a temptation.  Cheers, and Pax Christi.
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).


    Offline poche

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    Zodiac signs Question
    « Reply #8 on: November 04, 2015, 10:34:41 PM »
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  • If you are talking about zodiac signs as decorative accessories then that would be ok.
    If you are talking about zodiac signs as something to study and take seriously then you would be entering into communion with the devil.  

    Offline Skylar

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    Zodiac signs Question
    « Reply #9 on: November 06, 2015, 12:11:52 AM »
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  • haha, no poche, just as an interesting thing as in personalities. that's all. Geez, I'm a practicing Catholic after all. lol.

    Offline poche

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    « Reply #10 on: November 06, 2015, 02:28:30 AM »
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  • Quote from: Skylar
    haha, no poche, just as an interesting thing as in personalities. that's all. Geez, I'm a practicing Catholic after all. lol.

    I don't recommend using it as a study in personalities. You could be right but then you could be wrong. and you would be using the devil as some kind of a guide. I don't recommend entering into communion with the devil in this way.


    Offline Centroamerica

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    Zodiac signs Question
    « Reply #11 on: November 06, 2015, 07:50:19 AM »
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  • Yeah, I know that the horoscopes are mortally sinful, anything to do with the stars telling you how wonderful of a person you are, telling you how your day will be etc.  I've always avoided them.


    But I found some interesting things in the symbols etc.  For example, the sign of Libra is a triple beam scale.  This symbolizes justice.  The feast of St. Michael is during the "Libra" period.  St. Michael is almost always pictured holding the triple beam scales of God's justice.  Is there a connection?  Or is it simply a coincidence?
    We conclude logically that religion can give an efficacious and truly realistic answer to the great modern problems only if it is a religion that is profoundly lived, not simply a superficial and cheap religion made up of some vocal prayers and some ceremonies...

    Offline clare

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    Zodiac signs Question
    « Reply #12 on: November 06, 2015, 09:31:22 AM »
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  • Our Lady is Virgo, appropriately!

    Our Lord is Capricorn though, which is odd, what with goats being the bad guys in the Gospel.

    Offline cassini

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    Zodiac signs Question
    « Reply #13 on: November 06, 2015, 01:54:52 PM »
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  • Quote from: Skylar
    Fine, tell me if this needs to be moved somewhere else.
    Zodiac signs are popular as you know, and although I myself have never put my nose to the task of sniffling them, I'd like to know if they are wrong?
    I mean is it wrong to look at what Cancer, etc means?
    Being a younger, wild person it would be a fun topic for me with my friends, so I'd like to know your opinions as Catholics.
    Okay, another thing, I really heartily don't approve of some trad's highly negative, doom and dirt comments which they seem to take happiness.
    So please answer me, but I kindly ask you not to put too much darkness on the whole tale.
    Thank you very much.


    The predictions using the Zodiac signs in newspapers etc., are harmless in that we know they are made up by some chancer pretending to know the future. Nobody actually takes them seriously. So by all means have a good laugh. There is however a serious side to astrology, one you might like to read to understand the Catholic side of the matter.

    From the Earthmovers:
    ‘The story which the Zodiac unfolds in the course of the year lies in the meanings of these names given by God to each of the stars in its forty-eight constellations when He set them in order in the beginning, making of them, as the Psalmist says: “faithful witnesses in heaven” (Ps. 88:38) of His plan for the world… Put in proper order, beginning not with Aries as now deployed, but with Virgo, and ending with Leo rather than with Pisces, the Zodiac foretold in the stars the story of the Incarnation, the Redemption and the world to come long before the Bible was written. Virgo is of course the Blessed Virgin and Leo is Jesus Christ, the Lion of Judah, universal Lord of Creation. (This incidentally, provides the answer to the mystery of the Sphinx which, having the head of a woman and the body and tail of a lion is therefore simply a representation in stone of the ancient Zodiac).’ ---Solange Hertz: The Sixth Trumpet, Remnant Press, Minnesota, 2002, p.11.

    It comes as no surprise then – in the context of that great battle of principalities and powers resulting from that martial decree of Genesis 3:15 - to find occult interference with the Zodiac of Holy Scripture. Their pagan astrology asserted that earthly spirits, ghosts and other agents joined the heavenly angels and all began to influence planetary formations in a manner that, they said, had a direct effect on human behaviour and our destiny depending on where these cosmic bodies are within the zodiac belt. This way the astrology ‘signs’ became the object of fraud, superstition and the occult, with men and women claiming to read prophesies and messages from the ‘gods’ in them. So, just as the signs in the stars were hijacked for diabolical purposes, an astrology that became a useless occult belief system for vast numbers of people throughout the last few thousand years even to this day, so too would God’s astronomy be hijacked and replaced by one that would also be used to serve the occult forces on earth. The Catholic Church of course, absolutely rejects the idea that the sun, moon or planets could actually influence or predict one’s present or future behaviour. The Church teaches that men have free will and that God alone knows the future. Such a notion as the position of stars or planets being able to determine the destiny or behaviour of men is anti-Christian.

         Let us now trace the history of this occult use of God’s constellations in the Zodiac. Just as nearly all peoples ceased to worship the true God in pre-diluvian times, so too did men after the Deluge lose faith in the God that saved their ancestors in the Ark and began to adore and personify as gods the sun, moon, stars, thunder, lightening etc., with emphasis mainly on the sun as God, the giver of life. This cult of course, was assisted by Satan to reflect two of his greatest inabilities by proxy; (1) to mimic the light of the Trinity for himself, and (2) to compensate for his most abject failing, his inability to generate.

    ‘The sun thus deified and personified was made the theme of allegorical history, emblematic of his yearly passage through the twelve constellations. The zodiac is the apparent path of the sun among the stars. It was divided by the ancients into twelve different parts, composed of the clusters of stars named after “living creatures,” typical of the twelve months….
         The sun, as he pursued his way among these “living creatures” of the zodiac, was said, in allegorical language, either to assume the nature of or to triumph over the sign he entered. The sun thus became a bull in Taurus, and was worshipped as such by the Egyptians under the name of Apis, and by the Assyrians as Bel, Baal, or Bul. In Leo the sun became a lion-slayer, Hercules, and an archer in Sagittarius. In Pisces, the fishes – he was a fish – Dagon, or Vishnu, the fish-god of the Philistines and Hindoos. When the sun enters Capricornus he reaches his lowest southern declination; afterwards as he emerges from that sign the days become longer, and the sun grows rapidly in light and heat; hence we are told in the mythology that the sun, or Jupiter, was suckled by a goat…The beautiful virgin of the Zodiac, Virgo, together with the Moon, under a score of different names, furnishes the female element in these mythological stories, the wonderful adventures of the Gods. These fables are most of them absurd enough if understood as real histories, but the allegorical key being given, many of them are found to contain profound and sublime astronomical truths. This key was religiously kept secret by the priests and philosophers, and was only imparted to those initiated into the MYSTERIES. The profane and vulgar crowd were kept in darkness, and believed in and worshipped a real Hercules or Jupiter, whom they thought actually lived and performed all the exploits and underwent all the transformations of the mythology. By these means the Priests of Egypt ruled the people with a despotic power.’ --- Robert Hewitt Brown: Stellar Theology and Masonic Astronomy, D Appleton & Co, 1882, p.7.

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Zodiac signs Question
    « Reply #14 on: November 06, 2015, 03:48:37 PM »
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  • Even the Novus Ordo/JPII Catechism teaches that horoscopes and zodiac signs are against the Catholic Faith.

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)