Author Topic: Would it be better to let every person in the world die . . . (Read 3323 times)

Matto · « **on:** August 28, 2010, 02:55:41 PM »

I was involved in a discussion on another website and I said a few things that I would like to know if they are true, or if I was wrong to say them. The people on the website were discussing whether one can ever do evil that good may come of it, and I thought the answer was no. But I was also trying to point out that even in such cases, the bad that comes of it seems to outweigh the good, if you take eternity into consideration.

I said It would be better for everyone in the whole world to die than to commit one mortal sin to save them.

I reasoned that the loss of your soul would be a far greater loss than the loss of every single life on the planet, because the death of a soul is infinitely worse than the death of the body, and that each and every soul is worth more than the value of all the bodily life of everyone in the world, not to mention the offense the sin would give to God. I figured that the infinite suffering of one person would be far greater than the temporal suffering and death of every single person. I did not mention, but was thinking that even if you knew you would be pardoned for committing that sin, and would not go to Hell, you still should not do it, even to save all of the lives in the world, because of the offense it would give God.

I reasoned that we should grieve over the death of the soul and not the death of the body because the only thing that can make the death of the body bitter is if the soul was already lost because of sin.

Is there anything wrong with what I have said? Also, would it also be better for everyone in the whole world to die than to commit one venial sin that would save their lives?

Dulcamara · « **Reply #1 on:** August 28, 2010, 05:47:52 PM »

I heard that Our Lord said to a visionary that if a person could save everyone in the world by committing one VENIAL sin, it would still be wrong to do it. I can't remember who it was offhand, though.

Makes sense. If something is against God, well... NOTHING is worse than offending God. Absolutely nothing.

Matto · « **Reply #2 on:** August 28, 2010, 06:40:53 PM »

What you say seems true. Some people really did not like it when I said it was better for the whole world to die than to commit a mortal sin. I see I should have spoken stronger. I wonder what they would have said if I said it would be better for the whole world to die than to commit a venial sin like eating your food too quickly.

Dulcamara · « **Reply #3 on:** August 28, 2010, 10:36:11 PM »

Well, a lot of people out there think of God as someone they can manipulate or re-invent on a whim. If you think that way, you absolutely do not take God seriously. If you think it is "not a big deal" to offend Him, then you are not taking God very seriously. The concept of what it means to offend that all-perfect and all-good God (to whom we owe literally everything), just isn't something they can comprehend. They picture something like a softy, pushover parent, where if the kid gets crocodile tears long enough, the parent melts and just says everything is ok and all is forgiven. And of course, no kid ever really respects that kind of parent.

Problem is, God is not like that, and the slightest offense against Him IS a very big, very serious thing, and He is NOT someone we can just take liberties with and disrespect as we like, and then just brush it under the rug and have everything be well. With God, there is perfect justice. Justice is a concept people can no longer comprehend. God forgives, yes... but that does not diminish the gravity of what we did by sinning against Him, given all of His goodness, all of His perfections, and all that we owe Him. That's serious.

Today, people have ZERO concept of that. They don't care at all. It's nothing to them. So yeah, when you say, to offend that Perfect and all-loving God to ANY degree is a very, very big deal, they just look at you like you're a dope and go, "huh...? Isn't that a little...extreme?" No. Actually it's only by the mercy of God that we don't get the very extreme punishments we deserve for doing something like that. The reality is, yes, offending God AT ALL is really more grave and infinitely more wrong than refusing to offend Him, and letting a proverbial maniac push a button and :heretic: the whole world.

At least that's what I've understood. Of course, if you can find in a real and approved Catechism (from 200 years ago) where it says, "in this situation, if you do this, it's not a sin..." then it wouldn't BE a sin to save the world by doing it. For instance, if in order to protect the world, you pushed the lunatic off a cliff... I'm pretty sure that's called self defense.

But I think the problem here is that people just have lost all sense of Who God is, and what we owe to Him, and of anything like justice. Once you loose sight of those things, then yes, things like this do SOUND "extreme." The more you appreciate the reality of Him, on the other hand, the less extreme (and more obvious) you realize it is to say something like this.

Telesphorus · « **Reply #4 on:** August 29, 2010, 04:55:25 PM »

A sin is never permitted, anything that's permitted by a special dispensation (which was common in the Old Testament) is not a sin.

Yes, it would be better to allow the world to go to ruin than to commit a sin. I've heard it from the pulpit, on good authority.

It follows directly from the fact that the world could not go to ruin unless it were the will of God, but sin is never the will of God.

Matto · « **Reply #5 on:** August 29, 2010, 05:35:26 PM »

Dominion, as far as those heroic GIs go, killing is not always a sin. A soldier can kill the enemy in battle without sin. Saul killed his thousands and David killed his tens of thousands, etc.

Did I ever say I have never sinned?

Do you think you can sin strategically and actually harm the enemy, the devil, by sinning? Doing the Devil's will (sin) is how to lose, not win, that battle.

Do you mean 2 PARALIPOMENON? The Haydock commentery for that excerpt says that the lying spirit was a demon that God allows to speak through the lying prophets, as he often allows demons to speak through false prophets, not an angel of the Lord at all.

You call God's wrath a bad thing as if God was capable of doing a bad thing. You seem to be calling God sinful because he dispenses justice. Do you really think God is a sinner? or am I misinterpreting you?

You said: "Commit 'mortal sin' or let the nαzιs have the world and kill everybody. It's really a no-brainer, don't you think?"

By putting "mortal sin" in quotes, are you implying that you do not believe mortal sin exists? And, yes it is a no-brainer, you can not ever commit a mortal sin for any reason. The way you believe, when you go to confession your sins might not be forgiven because for your sins to be forgiven, don't you have to have the intention to never commit a mortal sin again for any reason? If you think in your heart sure I will willingly commit mortal sins for reasons I deem to be good, will God still forgive you?

Matto · « **Reply #6 on:** August 29, 2010, 06:03:08 PM »

Dominion, I see that was your first post. Welcome to the forum. :cheers:

Telesphorus · « **Reply #7 on:** August 29, 2010, 07:24:25 PM »

Quote from: Dominion

Thanks, I was just leaving.

Stick around there's plenty to talk about.

JoanScholastica · « **Reply #8 on:** September 03, 2010, 07:01:35 PM »

Quote from: Matto

I was involved in a discussion on another website and I said a few things that I would like to know if they are true, or if I was wrong to say them. The people on the website were discussing whether one can ever do evil that good may come of it, and I thought the answer was no. But I was also trying to point out that even in such cases, the bad that comes of it seems to outweigh the good, if you take eternity into consideration.

I said It would be better for everyone in the whole world to die than to commit one mortal sin to save them.

I reasoned that the loss of your soul would be a far greater loss than the loss of every single life on the planet, because the death of a soul is infinitely worse than the death of the body, and that each and every soul is worth more than the value of all the bodily life of everyone in the world, not to mention the offense the sin would give to God. I figured that the infinite suffering of one person would be far greater than the temporal suffering and death of every single person. I did not mention, but was thinking that even if you knew you would be pardoned for committing that sin, and would not go to Hell, you still should not do it, even to save all of the lives in the world, because of the offense it would give God.

I reasoned that we should grieve over the death of the soul and not the death of the body because the only thing that can make the death of the body bitter is if the soul was already lost because of sin.

Is there anything wrong with what I have said? Also, would it also be better for everyone in the whole world to die than to commit one venial sin that would save their lives?

It reminds me of St. Dominic Savio's famous words that death rather than sin[/i]. So I believe you are right. But if someone has committed a mortal sin, there's no need to despair and commit ѕυιcιdє. God's mercy is infinite and one can always go to confessional for this.

JoanScholastica · « **Reply #9 on:** September 03, 2010, 07:03:38 PM »

Quote from: Telesphorus

Quote from: Dominion
Thanks, I was just leaving.

Stick around there's plenty to talk about.

Yeah, that's true... Don't get easily offended... A lot of us have been through that here and it's just what we call life.

scipio_a · « **Reply #10 on:** September 04, 2010, 01:48:42 AM »

I'm having trouble coming up with a scenario where you'd have to commit a real sin to save people....

But then it's deep nights here and I'm wanting to sleep.

Telesphorus · « **Reply #11 on:** September 04, 2010, 02:05:54 AM »

Quote from: scipio_a

I'm having trouble coming up with a scenario where you'd have to commit a real sin to save people....

But then it's deep nights here and I'm wanting to sleep.

If someone told you to do something evil or they would kill someone you love.

scipio_a · « **Reply #12 on:** September 04, 2010, 02:14:55 AM »

Quote from: Telesphorus

Quote from: scipio_a
I'm having trouble coming up with a scenario where you'd have to commit a real sin to save people....

But then it's deep nights here and I'm wanting to sleep.

If someone told you to do something evil or they would kill someone you love.

That's not everyone in the world...but in your scenario...I'd kill them. Pretty easy really. And then what is it that is being called evil....what are we being asked to do?

and the scenario can't just be about the bad guy killing someone I love...it needs to be everyone in the world as per the OP.

Telesphorus · « **Reply #13 on:** September 04, 2010, 02:36:12 AM »

There's a Johnny Depp movies with that premise.

He must kill the female governor of California or his daughter will be killed.

Well, a Catholic cannot kill the female governor of California, no matter what threat is made.

(however, he might not cry if such a politician were done away with)

spouse of Jesus · « **Reply #14 on:** September 04, 2010, 03:25:30 AM »

Quote

Well, a Catholic cannot kill the female governor of California, no matter what threat is made.

Well, killing in self-defense is ok.