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Offline Disputaciones

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Why was the Origin of Species never placed on the Index?
« on: September 03, 2016, 10:31:37 AM »
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  • Isn't this strange, considering this is considered to be the book that "started it all" with evolution?

    Uncle Tom's Cabin was banned in Italy and all the Papal States, but not this one?

    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Why was the Origin of Species never placed on the Index?
    « Reply #1 on: September 03, 2016, 01:23:02 PM »
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  • Freemasons.   :incense:
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    Offline Matthew

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    Why was the Origin of Species never placed on the Index?
    « Reply #2 on: September 03, 2016, 01:34:17 PM »
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  • If what you say is true, then it's a very good question.

    Did the Index ever claim to be an exhaustive list of what books a Catholic can't read? (i.e., if it's not on the Index, you can go ahead and read it with full confidence -- green light, rather than yellow light)

    Did the Index contain every other "obviously evil" book?

    Isn't that why they dropped the Index a half a century ago? (Because there were just too many books being written these days)
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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Why was the Origin of Species never placed on the Index?
    « Reply #3 on: September 03, 2016, 01:46:54 PM »
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  • The documents of Vatican II would have been banned 150 years ago.  

    Ditto just about everything authored by Benedict XVI (erstwhile Joseph Ratzinger).

    Any good Freemason knows that you can't have an "Index" forbidding books written by the pope.

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    Offline Disputaciones

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    Why was the Origin of Species never placed on the Index?
    « Reply #4 on: September 03, 2016, 03:50:06 PM »
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  • Quote from: Matthew
    If what you say is true, then it's a very good question.


    Both statements are true: Origin of Species was never placed on the Index and Uncle Tom's Cabin was banned.

    Quote from: Matthew
    Did the Index ever claim to be an exhaustive list of what books a Catholic can't read? (i.e., if it's not on the Index, you can go ahead and read it with full confidence -- green light, rather than yellow light)

    Did the Index contain every other "obviously evil" book?


    I don't think so but, if any book should be banned, I imagine On the Origin should.

    Quote from: Matthew
    Isn't that why they dropped the Index a half a century ago? (Because there were just too many books being written these days)


    Paul 6 abolished the Index, not the Church pre-V2, and for reasons similar to what you're saying.
     


    Offline Matto

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    Why was the Origin of Species never placed on the Index?
    « Reply #5 on: September 03, 2016, 03:54:29 PM »
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  • I would love to see what he cassini has to say about it.
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    Offline cassini

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    Why was the Origin of Species never placed on the Index?
    « Reply #6 on: September 03, 2016, 05:02:05 PM »
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  • Quote from: Disputaciones
    Isn't this strange, considering this is considered to be the book that "started it all" with evolution?

    Uncle Tom's Cabin was banned in Italy and all the Papal States, but not this one?


    In 1835 The Holy Office had the last five books advocating a fixed-sun/moving earth removed from the Index.

    Cardinal Daly tells us what happened next:

    The “Galileo Affair” remains, as Fantoli remarks in the concluding sentence of his book, “a severe lesson in humility to the Church and a warning, no less rigorous, to the Church, not to wish to repeat in the present or in the future the errors of the past, even the most recent past.” That such words, and a book about Galileo so frank and honest as his, could be published by the Vatican Observatory and printed by the Vatican Press, is one further augury, promising a new era of constructive and mutually enriching dialogue between Church and science.’  ---Cardinal Daly: The Minding of Planet Earth, Veritas Publications, Ireland, pp.62/87/94, 2000

    This 'severe lesson in humility' assured science that the Catholic Church would never again put a 'science' book on the Index again after having withdraw the heliocentric books from 1741 to 1835.

    Moreover, by Darwin's time many high ranking and influencial churchmen actually believed in evolution. The most famous was John Henry Newman (1801-1890) often referred to as ‘a pioneer and prophet of Vatican Council II,’  

    Cardinal John Henry Newman, we are told in numerous books and articles on him, had a keen interest in science, and the contemporary debates on the relation between religion and science. At Oxford he read for honours in both classics and mathematics. For his final examination he studied Newton’s incomprehensible Principia, geometry and trigonometry, astronomy, geology and mineralogy. When he stood for the Oriel Fellowship he confided to his father that: ‘Few have ever attained the facility and comprehension which I arrived at from the regularity and constancy of my reading and the laborious and nerve-bracing and fancy-repressing study of mathematics, which has been my principal subject.’ --- Vincent Ferrer Belhl: Pilgrim’s Journey. John Henry Newman, Paulist Press, 2002, p.45

    In a composition of May 24 1861, entitled ‘An Essay on the Inspiration of Holy Scripture’ he adduced the case of Galileo as one of the critical points towards maturing on the part of Catholic Scripture-scholars.

    ‘He quickly set to work and produced ‘An Essay on the Inspiration of Holy Scripture,’ which was left unpublished until 1953. Recent theologians, Newman observes, tend to perpetuate the error of the Galileo fiasco by straining to reconcile Scripture and science. A better way out of the present mischief would be to manifest that the Bible could not collide with either science or history.
        The Church has never declared de fide that the sacred writings were themselves inspired. The familiar phrase, ‘Deus est auctor utriusque Testamenti,’ means ‘The Mosaic covenant as well as the Christian has come from the one God,’ instead of ‘God wrote the entire Bible.’ Further, Apostles are called inspired by Trent, and traditions are said to be dictated by the Holy Spirit, yet neither statements are made of the books themselves. Though we may believe it so, the Church has never formally proclaimed the Scriptures to be inspired.’ ---James Tunstead Burtchaell: Catholic Theories of Biblical Inspiration Since 1810, Cambridge University Press, 1969, p.71.
     
    NEWMAN’S GALILEO, REVELATION, AND THE EDUCATED MAN (1861).
    Two Sacred Congregations represented the popular voice and passed decrees against the philosopher, which were in force down to the years 1822 and 1837 [when they were all taken off the Index].
         Such an alarm never can occur again, for the very reason that it has occurred once.
    At least, for myself, I can say that, had I been brought up in the belief of the immobility of the earth as though a dogma of Revelation, and had associated it in my mind with the incommunicable dignity of man among created things, with the destinies of the human race, with the locality of purgatory and hell, and other Christian doctrines, and then for the first time had heard Galileo’s thesis, and, moreover, the prospect held out to me that perhaps there were myriads of globes like our own all filled with rational creatures as worthy of the Creator’s regard as we are, I should have been at once indignant at its presumption and frightened at its speciousness, as I never can be at any parallel novelties in other human sciences bearing on religion; no, not though I found probable reasons for thinking the first chapters of Genesis were not of an economical character, that there was a pre-Adamite race of rational animals, or that we are now 20,000 years from Noe. For that past controversy and its issue have taught me beyond all mistake, that men of the greatest theological knowledge may firmly believe that scientific conclusions are contrary to the Word of God, when they are not so, and pronounce that to be heresy which is truth. It has taught me, that Scripture is not inspired to convey mere secular knowledge, whether about the heaven or the earth, or the race of man; and that I need not fear for Revelation whatever truths may be brought to light by means of observation and experience out of the world of phenomena which environ us. And I seem to myself here to be speaking under the protection and sanction of the Sacred Congregation of the Index itself, which has since the time of Galileo prescribed to itself a line of action, indication of its fearlessness of any results which may happen to religion from physical sciences. Many books have since that time been placed upon its prohibited catalogue, the worlds of (humanly speaking) distinguished men, the works of Morkof, Puffendorf, Brucker, Ranke, Hallam, Macauley and Mill; but I find no one of physical celebrity, unless such writers as Dr. Erasmus, Darwin, Bonucci, Klee and Burdach are so to be accounted. One great lesson surely, if no other, is taught by the history of theological controversy since the 16th century: moderation to the assailant, equanimity to the assailed, and that as regards geological and ethnological conclusions as well as astronomical.
    But of course the investigation has gone further, and done, or is now even doing, some positive service to the cause which it was accused of opposing. It is in the way to restore to the earth that prerogative and pre-eminence in the creation which it was thought to compromise. Thus investigation, which Catholics would have suppressed as dangerous, when, in spite of them, it has had its course, results in conclusions favourable to their cause. How little then need we fear the free exercise of reason! How injurious is the suspicion entertained of it by religious men! How true it is that nature and revelation are nothing but two separate communications from the same infinite Truth!
         Now let us suppose that the influences which were in the ascendant throughout Italy in 1637 had succeeded in repressing any free investigation on the question of the motion of the earth. The mind of the educated class would have not the less felt that it was a question, and would have been haunted, and would have been poisoned, by the misgiving that there was some real danger to Revelation in the investigation; for otherwise the ecclesiastical authorities would not have forbidden it. There would have been in the Catholic community a mass of irritated, ill-tempered, feverish and festering suspicion, engendering general scepticism and hatred of the priesthood, and relieving itself in a sort of tacit freemasonry, of which secret societies are the development, and then in sudden outbreaks perhaps of violence and blasphemy. Protestantism is a dismal evil; but in this respect Providence has overruled it for the good.  It has, by allowing free inquiry in science, destroyed a bugbear, and thereby saved Catholics themselves so far from the misery of hollow profession and secret infidelity.' --- As found in James Collins, Philosophical Readings on Cardinal John Henry Newman (Chicago: H. Regnery Press, 1961), pp.284-291.

    When Darwin’s Origin of Species was published in 1859, it came as no surprise to Henry Newman. His idea of history, with change and development implicit in it, enabled him to comprehend Darwin’s claims, which shocked so many well-educated men whose minds were dominated by a static view of history. They believed in a literal exposition of the Book of Genesis. Newman’s view of history was dynamic and he found no difficulty in reconciling his views to Darwin’s.’  ----Brian Martin, J.H. Newman, His Life and Work, Challo & Windus, London, 1982, p.76.

    ‘It has been said by someone that [Cardinal Henry] Newman was not a man of action, was not in the ordinary sense an orator, but that when he took the pen into his hand, then he was a match for the whole world. The power with which he is thus credited is surely nowhere more strikingly shown than in his Essay on the Development of Doctrine. It meant the application – many years before Darwin published his Origins of Species – of the evolutionary idea to religious dogma. Henceforth dogma, instead of being regarded as static, as something motionless, inert, incapable of expansion, became a thing [in possession of] the principle of growth and development.’ ---J. Lewis May: Cardinal Newman, Kessinger Publishing, 2003, pp.71-72.

    Offline TKGS

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    Why was the Origin of Species never placed on the Index?
    « Reply #7 on: September 03, 2016, 06:31:02 PM »
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  • I can understand why the Church never put Origins on the Index.  The true reasons, of course, will not be known until the Last Day, but, I think, we can make some fairly good educated guesses.

    First, Placing a book on the Index is a positive act and that act forbids Catholics to read the book.  The fact that a book is not on the index is not, of course, approval of a book.  Not appearing on the index merely meant that the book had not positively been condemned.

    Second, The men in charge of maintaining the Index were fallen human beings.  They were not perfect.  The Index was never considered to be an infallible decree though one could never go wrong not reading a book on the Index.

    Third, By the 1800s the Church was, indeed, suffering from what we would today call, "bad press" in the Galileo affair.  While the Church has been proven to have acted correctly on the matters involving Galileo, Protestant misinformation had caused many people to doubt the Church's actions.  The same Protestant propaganda has lead many to question the Spanish Inquisition and the Crusades as well.

    Fourth, The Churchmen of Darwin's day did not want to add fuel to the Protestant misinformation machine by condemning a book presenting a theory that the "scientists" of the day were claiming to have irrefutable evidence favoring.  The fact that there was not one item of evidence was not known by those Churchmen.

    Fifth, The scourge of Modernism was already infecting many Churchmen.

    Regardless, asking why the Church didn't do something that, in hindsight, we laymen think the Church should have done is a rather useless inquiry.  We can seldom know why anyone in history didn't do something because people usually don't explain their non-actions, especially when no one asked about it for more than 150 years.


    Offline klasG4e

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    Why was the Origin of Species never placed on the Index?
    « Reply #8 on: September 03, 2016, 09:25:17 PM »
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  • Perhaps there is truth in the assertion that some works were not included on the Index due to the general Tridentine rule that heretical works were ipso facto forbidden.

    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Why was the Origin of Species never placed on the Index?
    « Reply #9 on: September 03, 2016, 09:55:51 PM »
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  • This is a good discussion!

    It seems to me, reading On the Origin of Species leaves one with the impression that it's an empirical study of the diversity of life extant, with a lot of conjecture thrown in about what life looked like on earth in the distant past, based on what can be found today.  Darwin took a journey, especially with stops in the Galapagos Islands, collected samples, and ruminated on the whole thing for a long two years before he came out with his book.  

    The bottom line is (not only was, but is) nobody had done this before he did and his book was the first of its kind.  It also was an overnight best seller depleting stocks everywhere to zero in the first day.  No book had ever sold so well from the starting gate, if any have since.  

    I'm not saying it's a wonderful read.  It has a way of turning one's stomach if you try to read too much all at once.  Darwin contradicts himself in numerous places, under the guise of having a debate over his theories (he says, "my theory" but there are more than one, and some claim they don't really rise to the level of theory but only hypotheses), so he is in support of them one moment, and then offers challenges to them, the next.

    I rather pity the Churchmen of the day who were no doubt overwhelmed with all the falderal, flotsam and jetsam.  As TKGS said just above,

    Quote

    Fourth, The Churchmen of Darwin's day did not want to add fuel to the Protestant misinformation machine by condemning a book presenting a theory that the "scientists" of the day were claiming to have irrefutable evidence favoring.  The fact that there was not one item of evidence was not known by those Churchmen.


    Even to this day, defenders of evolutionism (a religion) assert boldly that there is plenty of evidence to support it.  In the rare event that they dare to get specific, it quickly becomes evident that what they proffer is not evidence of anything but their own unscientific dishonesty.

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    Offline cassini

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    Why was the Origin of Species never placed on the Index?
    « Reply #10 on: September 04, 2016, 04:33:04 AM »
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  • I must clarify my post above having considered the latest posts.

    For a book to be placed on the Index there must be heresy contained within it.

    So, because they thought they 'heresied' heliocentrism in error, they had no intention to repeat their 'mistake' and define any other 'physical' contradiction to Genesis as formal heresy.

    Oh, taking a book off the Index does not mean the heresies in them are no longer heresies.


    Offline Graham

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    Why was the Origin of Species never placed on the Index?
    « Reply #11 on: September 04, 2016, 11:54:22 AM »
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  • Does The Origin of Species contradict the caveats the Church has made regarding the theory of evolution, i.e. the special creation of mankind and the existence of Adam and so on?

    Offline klasG4e

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    Why was the Origin of Species never placed on the Index?
    « Reply #12 on: September 04, 2016, 12:50:42 PM »
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  •  In the second paragraph of the article at http://scienticity.net/wiki/Evolution_and_the_Vatican  we read "Darwin published The Origin of Species in 1859, during the pontificate of Pius IX. The book was included in the 1948 edition of the Index Librorum Prohibitorum (the "Index of Prohibited Books"[1

    Footnote 1 reads: "Modern History Sourcebook: Index librorum prohibitorum, 1557-1966".    

    Offline Disputaciones

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    Why was the Origin of Species never placed on the Index?
    « Reply #13 on: September 04, 2016, 01:52:28 PM »
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  • Quote from: cassini
    I must clarify my post above having considered the latest posts.

    For a book to be placed on the Index there must be heresy contained within it.

    So, because they thought they 'heresied' heliocentrism in error, they had no intention to repeat their 'mistake' and define any other 'physical' contradiction to Genesis as formal heresy.

    Oh, taking a book off the Index does not mean the heresies in them are no longer heresies.


    I forgot to say that "Zoonomia," Darwin's grandfather's book, which was pro-evolution, was in fact placed on the Index.

    Offline songbird

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    Why was the Origin of Species never placed on the Index?
    « Reply #14 on: September 04, 2016, 06:10:04 PM »
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  • ah!  Brings to my mind a most famous Catholic, Louis Pasteur 1822-1895.  I just finished his story by Albert Keim and Louis Lumet copyright 1914.

    Thank God for Pasteur!  imo he would be a saint better than mother teresa. Ha!

    Louis Pasteur proved, I think, against Darwinism when it came to the Darwinist that things can be produced out of slime.

    Pasteur had to fight the darwinist/freemason by proving his experiments over and over again.  He won the hearts of those who wanted to keep their sheep to those who wanted good beer/wine to keep and age!

    Thank God for his wife who allowed Louis to keep on going!  

    Pasteur always said his rosary!

     

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