Author Topic: How can God send wicked souls to Hell forever (Read 3569 times)

unknown · « **on:** May 02, 2019, 04:47:20 AM »

From: Against All Heresies

Jerome: If you want my immediate response, see below his question. And yes, I condemn God, Hell and also prove why all souls will be saved in the end. In short: The (blasphemy deleted) of God (i.e., Hell) was only a test to see who would follow their conscience (of not just being God's slave by allowing him to do anything (such as eternal evil)), and who would not (i.e., those who would follow their conscience (and the golden rule of wishing good upon others as upon themselves) which says that they do not want their own children to be damned and hence, they do not want eternal damnation to exist or that anyone should be damned.)

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St. Bridget's Revelations ch 41

Eli: Have you read Book 3 Chapter 26? I'm going to paste half of the chapter here in the email for the sake of convenience and highlight what I personally think are kind of problematic for EENS. It's confusing because in the same chapter our Lord affirms EENS multiple times. I would really like to know what your take on this is.

Bold: borderline heretical
Underlined: EENS

However, now I can complain that I am little praised and unknown to many people, because everyone is following his own will but few follow mine. Be you steadfast and humble, and do not exalt yourself in your mind if I show you other people's trials, and do not betray their names unless you are instructed to do so. Their trials are not shown to you to shame them but in order that they may be converted and come to know God's justice and mercy. Nor should you shun them as condemned, for even if I should say today that a certain person is wicked, should he call on me tomorrow with contrition and a will to improve, I am prepared to forgive him. And that person whom I yesterday called wicked, today, due to his contrition, I declare him to be so dear a friend of mine that if his contrition remains steadfast, I forgive him not only his sin but even remit the punishment of sin.

You might understand this with a metaphor. It is as though there were two drops of quicksilver and both were heading toward each other in haste. If nothing but a single atom remained to keep them from joining, still God would be powerful enough to prevent them from coming together. Likewise, if any sinner were so rooted in diabolical deeds that he was standing at the very brink of destruction, he could still obtain forgiveness and mercy, if he called upon God with contrition and a will to improve. Now, given that I am so merciful, you might ask why I am not merciful toward pagans and Jews, some of whom, if they were instructed in the true faith, would be ready to lay down their lives for God. My response is that I have mercy on everyone, on pagans as well as Jews, nor is any creature beyond my mercy.

Edit: This I interpret as lesser punishment, not salvation.

With leniency and mercy I will judge both those people who, learning that their faith is not the true one, fervently long for the true faith, as well as those people who believe the faith they profess to be the best one, because no other faith has ever been preached to them, and who wholeheartedly do what they can.

Edit: This also, lesser punishment, not necessarily salvation.

You see, there is a double judgment, namely the one for those to be condemned and the one for those to be saved. The sentence of condemnation for Christians will have no mercy in it. To them will belong eternal punishment and shadows and a will hardened against God. The sentence for those Christians to be saved will be the vision of God and glorification in God and goodwill toward God.

Excluded from these rewards are pagans and Jews as well as bad and false Christians. Although they did not have the right faith, they did have conscience as their judge and believed that the one whom they worshipped and offended was God.
But the ones whose intention and actions were and are for justice and against sin will, along with the less bad Christians, share a punishment of mercy in the midst of sufferings due to their love of justice and their hatred of sin. However, they will not have consolation in the service of glory and of the vision of God. They will not behold him due to their lack of baptism, because some temporal circuмstance or some hidden decision of God made them draw back from profitably seeking and obtaining salvation. If there was nothing that held them back from seeking the true God and being baptized, neither fear nor the effort required nor loss of goods or privileges, but only some impediment that overcame their human weakness, then I, who saw Cornelius and the centurion while they were still not baptized, know how to give them a higher and more perfect reward in accordance with their faith.

Edit: this could be interpreted as God will supernaturally supply baptism.

One thing is the ignorance of sinners, another that of those who are pious but impeded. Likewise, too, one thing is the baptism of water, another that of blood, another that of wholehearted desire.

Edit: This is where my main gripe with the chapter lies.

God, who knows the hearts of all people, knows how to take all of these circuмstances into account. I am begotten without beginning, begotten eternally from the beginning. I was born in time at the end of times. From the commencement I have known how to give individual persons the rewards they deserve and I give to each according as he deserves. Not the least little good done for the glory of God will go without its reward. This is why you should give many thanks to God that you were born of Christian parents in the age of salvation, for many people have longed to obtain and see that which is offered to Christians and yet have not obtained it.”

By the way, eternal hell is evil, and since Vatican II teaches that almost all are saved, I have also started to be inclined to this position. I can honestly believe that Vatican II is not an apostasy, but enlightenment. Do you not see how utterly evil and stupid it is to call "salvation" apostasy, heresy and evil? There are bad fruits of Vatican II, but that almost all people shall be saved are not one of them. So the pre-Vatican II Church which condemns almost the whole world (if one must be Catholic in the strict sense) was good, but Vatican II which opened up salvation for the entire human race, was evil? So good is evil and evil good?

There can be nothing more evil then Hell, and to think that a "good" God created it, or sends his own children there to suffer always, is itself a mortal sin and a heresy. - This just made me think of Gnostics and their belief that God is evil. Not that I agree that he was evil for the arguments they used, but rather, it is easy to see that God is evil because of the Hell he allows to exist. Had the Gnostics condemned God because he condemns souls (because he do evil and breaks the golden law -- i.e., do good unto others as you wan't others to do good unto you) they would have won the day. I mean, how can an honest soul argue that there is justice with eternal torments? (Blasphemy against God's infinite Justice deleted)

*Several more paragraphs of overt blasphemy deleted*

Stubborn · « **Reply #1 on:** May 02, 2019, 06:00:05 AM »

Very screwed up OP.

I will just say that hell lasts forever because God, being eternal, lasts forever.

Therefore, if hell did not last forever, then sinners would have beaten God, sinners would be getting away with offending God if they were to ever be let out.

Last Tradhican · « **Reply #2 on:** May 02, 2019, 07:03:20 AM »

The closer one gets to God, the more they come to the reality that all we have of our own is our sins. St. Francis on his death bed agonized that he was going to hell. Today Catholics think that people are inherently good and salvation is easy for all "nice" people in all religions. They actually think that they are worthy of being in Heaven with God and that if God does not accept them, He is evil.

Last Tradhican · « **Reply #3 on:** May 02, 2019, 07:08:43 AM »

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I really cannot come to terms with why God created eternal Hell. Would it not have been enough to have heaven for those who obeyed God and a certain amount of punishment for those who died with unforgiven sins, those who rejected him and then oblivion after a just time, gone forever?

An eternity of fire in Hell seems out of character for a God of Love. We live a limited time on Earth but there is an eternity based on that limited time.

This Sunday morning we had again another reading that would scare the daylight out of Catholics who read it or heard it. The endless warnings of Hell if you do this, do that or the other seems to be the basis for our Catholic faith. Fear of God rather than love of God seems to be the core of traditional Catholicisim. How can one love God under threat of Hell? I just do not understand.

How can one base their Catholicism on love for God and his mother Mary when one is terrified at the thought of eternal fire if you are prone to sin as all human beings are?

Vatican II I think tried to change the faith from one of fear to one of a loving Jesus and Mary. This didn't work as it ended up hiding sin and luring billions into a false sense of love and infinite mercy. That said, I must accept this situation, even if I do not understand it.

Try not to over think this
1. God made the soul to be eternal, therefore the reward or punishment must be eternal.
2. This is not "out of character" for God when you consider how many graces He gives to help you get to Heaven
3. Many misunderstand the "fear of God". It means fear of offending God.
4. Lastly the fear of hell translates to fear of the punishment when it should be fear of offending; but that works too if that's what it takes to deter us. You've heard the expression "scare the hell out of them" it works.

We should be glad we are informed of the consequences of our actions that way we can exercise our free will to our best benefit. Never forget free will.

Snip from a sermon on hell from Fr. Wathen:
...Intrinsic in the idea of hell is it's everlastingness. One cannot conceive of a punishment sufficient for those who have defied God all their lives, till their deaths, and who have simply refused to accept God in His sovereignty and refused to do His will. It is altogether contrary, repugnant to reason that there would not be a punishment. This punishment has to last forever simply because these individuals, if hell did not last forever, would have beaten God. They would have defied Him and gotten away with it.

So of course, those who go to hell, don't go for temporary chastisement, they go there because they hate God and they will never do other. That is why hell lasts always, just as the devils do not hate God less because they have been there who knows how many eons. If anything, we would say that the devils hate God more after all that they have suffered because their suffering does not determine whether they will serve Him or despise Him, their own wills determine this.

Our Lord spoke of hell 15 times in the Scriptures and the things that He said make it clear to us that hell is a state and a place of everlasting burning. He mentioned hell more often, more times then He mentioned the doctrine of the Blessed Eucharist. Among the things He said - "Depart from me ye cursed ones, into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels."...

"...where the worm dieth not, neither is the fire quenched". And therein does Christ tell us of the two terrible torments of hell. "The worm that dieth not" refers to the pain of loss and the "fire that is not quenched" refers to the pain of sense. Because people are inclined to give too much intention to the pain of sense, we want you to consider the pain of loss, which is the essential punishment of hell.

The pain of loss is simply the everlasting recognition that one is in hell because one chose to be there. On earth he made his alibis and he pointed fingers at others and he imagined that he is going to blame his parents or blame society or blame hard luck, but in hell, no one blames anyone but himself because in hell, everyone knows why he is there, because he knows that he has rejected God - and in turn, God has, despite His love, rejected him. And the pain of loss is that terrible torment of the recognition of what one might have done but did not. That one might be enjoying the beatitude of heaven, but will never.....

The punishment of a crime is proportionate to the heinousness of the offense. That is justice.
A crime against an infinitely Good Being is infinitely heinous, and requiring of eternal punishment.

I believe your line of thinking is the product of modernism.
Modernism has twisted Christianity. Christianity has started to reflect modern norms rather than shape them. By Modernist morality, everything is acceptable, no one is responsible for any wrong doing. Many modern Christians know of God's love, but it isn't politically correct by the secular world to even mention God's justice. In fact, I believe that this rejection of the existence of Hell is the Devil's doing. After all, if everyone is going to Heaven, why not live it up?

Some Christians have even openly adopted the concept of Universal Salvation. They believe God loves people so much that EVERYONE is going to Heaven.

But the reality is God is just and generous. He gives us numerous chances at repentance and salvation.

Salvation is an economy of sorts: follow God's laws and you get to exist with Him in Heaven for eternity. Violate his laws, and the consequence is you are cut off from God's love forever.

It doesn't matter what we "think", it matters what the Church teaches.
Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, “Cantate Domino,” 1441, ex cathedra:
“The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the Church before the end of their lives

Last Tradhican · « **Reply #4 on:** May 02, 2019, 07:09:50 AM »

THE TEACHINGS OF THE FATHERS, DOCTORS AND SAINTS OF THE CHURCH UPON THE FINAL DESTINY OF MOST PEOPLE.

1) Notwithstanding assurances that God did not create any man for Hell, and that He wishes all men to be saved, it remains equally true that few will be saved; that only few will go to Heaven; and that the greater part of mankind will be lost forever. (St. John Neuman)

2) It is certain that few are saved. (St. Augustine)

3) The majority of men shall not see God. (St. Julian the Martyr)

4) Those who are saved are in the minority. ( St. Thomas Aquinas)

5) The greater part of men choose to be damned rather than to love almighty God. (St. Alphonsus Liguori)

6) So vast a number of miserable souls perish, and so comparatively few are saved. (St. Philip Neri)

7) Among adults there are few saved because of the sins of the flesh....With exception of those who die in childhood, most men will be damned. (St. Remigius of Rheims)

8) Death bed conversions/repentance-there are hardly any: Out of 100,000 sinners who continue in sin until death, scarcely ONE will be saved. (St. Jerome)

9) The MAJORITY OF CATHOLICS GO TO HELL:

a) The greater number of Christians today are damned. The destiny of those dying on one day is that very few - not as many as ten - went straight to Heaven; many remained in Purgatory; and THOSE CAST INTO HELL WERE NUMEROUS AS SNOWFLAKES in mid-winter. (Bl. Anna Maria Taigi)

b) There are many who arrive at the faith, but few who are led to the heavenly kingdom. Behold how many are gathered here for today's Feast-Day; we fill the church from wall to wall. Yet who knows how FEW they are who shall be numbered in that chosen company of the elect? (Pope St. Gregory the Great)

c) The Ark, which in the midst of the Flood was the symbol of the Church, was wide below and narrow above, .... It was wide where the animals were, narrow where men lived; for the Holy Church is indeed wide in number of those who are carnal minded, narrow in the number of those who are spiritual.

( Pope St. Gregory the Great)

d) Shall we all be saved? Shall we go to heaven? Alas, my children we do not know at all! But I tremble when I see so many souls lost these days. See, they fall into Hell as leaves fall from the trees at the approach of winter. (St. John Vianney)

10) MOST PRIESTS GO TO HELL:

St. John Chrysostom, Patriarch of Constantinople, Doctor of the Church:

I do not speak rashly, but as I feel and think., I do not think that many priests are saved but that those that perish are far more numerous. The reason is that the office requires a great soul. For there are many things to make a priest swerve from rectitude, and he requires great vigilance on every side. Do you not perceive how many qualities a bishop must have that he may be apt to teach; patient towards the wicked, firm and faithful in teaching the Word? How many difficulties herein.

Moreover the loss of others is imputed to him. I need say no more. If but one dies without baptism, does it not entirely endanger his salvation? For the loss of one soul is so great an evil as no man can understand. If the salvation of one soul is of such importance that, for its sake, the Son of God became man and suffered so much, think of the penalty the loss of one soul will entail. (Third Homily, Acts of the Apostles)

b) Many religious go to Hell because they do not keep their vows. (St. Vincent Ferrer)

CATHOLICS NOT ASPIRING AND NOT LIVING AS SAINTS WILL GO TO HELL:

a) They who are enlightened to walk in the way of perfection, and through lukewarmness wish to tread the ordinary paths, shall be abandoned. (Bl. Angela of Foligno)

b) They who are to be saved as Saints, and wish to be saved as imperfect souls, shall not be saved. (Pope St. Gregory the Great)

c) St. Teresa.... had she not risen from the state of lukewarmness in which she lived, she would in the end have lost the grace of God and been damned. ( St. Alphonsus Liguori)

14) How many inhabitants of this city may perhaps be saved? What I am about to say is very terrible, yet I will not conceal it from you. Out of this thickly populated city with it's thousands of inhabitants, not 100 people will be saved. I even doubt whether there will be as many as that! ( St. John Chrysostom - the city was Antioch and its inhabitants were known to be in pursuit of comfort and the good things of life.)

15) A multitude of souls fall into the depths of Hell. (St. Anthony Mary Claret - It has been revealed that on the day of the death of St. Bernard there also died 79,997 other people, and of this total of 80,000 who died, only St. Bernard and two other monks were saved.)

16) In the great deluge in the days of Noah, all mankind perished, eight persons alone being saved in the Ark. In our days a deluge, not of water, but sins, continually inundates the earth, and out of this deluge very few escape. Scarcely anyone is saved. ( St. Alphonsus Liguori)

17) Yes indeed, many will be damned; few will be saved. (St. Benedict Joseph Labro)

18) If you only knew the women who will go to Hell because they did not bring into the world the children they should have given to it. ( St. John Vianney)

19) He who goes to Hell, goes of his own accord. Everyone who is damned, is damned because he wills his own damnation. (St. Alphonsus Liguori)

20) THOSE WHO HAVE HEARD NOTHING ABOUT THE FAITH CAN ALSO GO TO HELL:

a) When such unbelievers are damned, it is on account of other sins, which cannot be taken away without the faith, but not because of their sin of unbelief. (St. Thomas Aquinas)

b) Everyone that is of truth hears my voice. (St. John 18:37)

c) It may be true that there are, in the remotest parts of the world, some people who have not yet seen the light of the Savior. Certainly, God's manifold and ineffable goodness has always provided, and still provides, for all mankind in such a way that not one of the reprobates can find an excuse as though he had been refused the light of truth. ( St. Prosper of Aquitaine)

d) No one is lost without knowing it, and no one is deceived without wanting to be. (St. Teresa of Avila)

21) OUTSIDE OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH, THERE IS NO SALVATION:

a) No matter how praiseworthy his actions might seem, he who is separated from the Catholic Church will never enjoy eternal life (Pope Gregory XVI)

b) O ye atheists who do not believe in God, what fools you are ! But if you do believe there is a God, you must also believe there is a true religion. And if not the Roman Catholic, which is it? Perhaps that of the pagans who admit many gods, thus they deny them all. Perhaps that of Mohammed, a religion invented by an impostor and framed for beasts rather than humans. Perhaps that of the Jews who had the true faith at one time but, because they rejected their redeemer, lost their faith, their country, their everything. Perhaps that of the heretics who, separating themselves from our Church, have confused all revealed dogmas in such a way that the belief of one heretic is contrary to that of his neighbor. O holy faith! Enlighten all those poor blind creatures who run to eternal perdition! (St. Alphonsus Liguori)

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Author Topic: How can God send wicked souls to Hell forever (Read 3569 times)

unknown

How can God send wicked souls to Hell forever

Stubborn

Re: Why the Catholic God is Evil and Unjust. Why Hell is Evil.

Last Tradhican

Re: Why the Catholic God is Evil and Unjust. Why Hell is Evil.

Last Tradhican

Re: Why the Catholic God is Evil and Unjust. Why Hell is Evil.

Last Tradhican

Re: Why the Catholic God is Evil and Unjust. Why Hell is Evil.