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Author Topic: Who is the Great Whore of Babylon?  (Read 5897 times)

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Offline hollingsworth

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Who is the Great Whore of Babylon?
« on: April 10, 2014, 10:54:33 AM »
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  • While we busily "resist" various things, particularly a "practical" agreement with Rome, and a host of post-Conciliar irregularities, along with the popes who promote them , another great, overriding evil continues its steady, destructive onslaught.  It seems we all but ignore this sensitive issue.  Admittedly it makes me squeamish.  Yet thousands of years ago the Old Testament prophets warned us about Israel's harlotry and some of the unspeakable details about it.  I doubt that even a traditional Catholic priest would touch this matter with a ten foot pole.  Alas, it appears that only one or two  courageous Protestant pastors dare to confront the issue presently.


    On Wed, Apr 9, 2014 at 4:55 PM, Rev. Ted Pike <newsletter@truthtellers.org> wrote:

         

        SPEAKING AGAINST UNSPEAKABLE EVIL

        By Rev. Ted Pike
        9 Apr 14

         

        Editor's Note: This is the transcript of my recorded Bible study under this title at Truthtellers.org.

         

        The evil we oppose as Christians and conservatives is often so vile that it is socially taboo. Discussion of it is considered bad manners. The result is that evil is not resisted effectively; it prospers. However, the Christian must be free to research and speak about every aspect of sin. If, out of misguided prudishness, he remains ignorant, he will be unable to speak incisively about what Christ described as a whitened wall that appears pure and high-minded on the outside but inside is full of ravening and wickedness (Luke 11:39).  

        Out of prudery and social fear, most people refuse to even know that тαℓмυdic (which is Orthodox and secular) Judaism marches in relentless opposition to Christianity.  A rabbit knows more than that about a fox!  By such ignorance, the Christian church is made vulnerable to Jєωιѕн supremacist attack.  Be sure of one thing: Anti-Christian Jєωιѕн attack groups, such as ADL, SPLC, and Jєωιѕн-dominated big media, are not shy about investigating and exploiting every possible weakness in the religious and political right. (See Jєωs Confirm Big Media is Jєωιѕн)

        Here are some of the topics that polite Christians do not want to discuss:

            The way abortionists eviscerate human babies, rip them limb from limb, carve them into "manageable chunks," or remove them halfway from the womb and then stab them in the back of the head, brutally and painfully ending the lives of tens of millions of babies in their mothers' wombs.

            The ever-increasing sewage of internet pornography, an industry that continues to be dominated by Jєωs. (See тαℓмυd: Wellspring of Jєωιѕн Pornography Industry and Jєωs in porn, whale.to ) This industry includes a surge of "revenge porn," in which men upload stolen sɛҳuąƖ images of women, along with all their personal identifying information, "up-the-skirt" shots of women taken in public places, and unending varieties of violent, sadomasochistic porn and porn depicting intercourse with animals, children, dead bodies, inanimate objects, orgies, and every other possibility.

            The true cost of ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ sex, with honest, explicit descriptions of the results to the human body as a result of anal sex (often massively torn rectums).

            The preference of many ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ men for sex with teenage males and young boys, a fact that can be abundantly docuмented by perusing the classified ads of sub-tier ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ newspapers and periodicals. The male ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ community largely exists on a substratum of near, or actual pedophilia.

            The rampant pedophilia worldwide among Orthodox rabbis and authority figures.  (See Pedophilia: The тαℓмυd's Dirty Secret and The Great "Raping Rabbis" Cover-Up) This includes the practice of Orthodox rabbis to suck blood from the penises of newly circuмcised Jєωιѕн baby boys.  Such suction, called "metzitzah b’peh," may continue for some time since rabbinic law says the ceremony cannot end until the infant's blood has coagulated.  This perversion of the rite of circuмcision has over millennia infected countless Jєωιѕн baby boys with diseases and still infects today. (See Babies' herpes linked to circuмcision practice, cnn.com)

        God Opposes Christian Prudishness

        Social reformers must first fight the church's belief that it is virtuous to not even know of such evil!   Many Christians take refuge from evil by quoting Paul who said he would prefer believers to be "wise about what is good, and innocent about what is evil" (Rom. 16:19) and "…it is disgraceful even to speak of the things which are done by them in secret" (Eph. 5:11). Yet Paul also describes Christians as soldiers, covered with spiritual armor who battle "against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places" (Eph. 6:12).   A soldier who is not supplied with the most complete information on the nature and empowerments of his enemy may well be killed unnecessarily.  In the same way that every major city employs detectives and a vice squad to obtain the fullest knowledge of the criminal element, so the church and its families can only be protected by possessing an adequate knowledge of the many foes arrayed against us.

        Ephesians 5 states clearly our responsibility to oppose evil: "Do not participate in the unfruitful deeds of darkness, but instead even expose them…all things become visible when they are exposed by the light, for everything that becomes visible is light" (Eph. 5:11-13).  Scripture is holy, but it is also realistic in strategies to resist and overcome such evil. Prudery says language about evil is the evil to be avoided and banned; but God says He hates the evil itself. In Scripture, He inspired shocking language and even shocking behavior to identify great evil and mobilize resistance to it.

        The greatest evil of all time is pharisaic тαℓмυdic Judaism.  It is the fountain from which has erupted the world revolutionary movement, striving in a galaxy of ways for world domination. (See Jєωιѕн Activists Created Communism) It is Babylon the Great, which the Scripture says will corrupt, deceive, and rule over the entire world.  (See 'Babylon the Great' is Israel)

        To alert His people in every age to the fact that тαℓмυdic Judaism and Israel is the original spiritual harlot, God uses explicit language and metaphors in Scripture. Critics allege the Old Testament portrays a capricious and inconsistent God who reverses His own laws and even inspires filthy speech and actions. Is that really the case?

        Let's consider Scriptural examples.

        Ezekiel 16 says Israel symbolically began her existence as a newborn baby, discarded and thrown on the open field without her umbilical cord even being cut.  She was, it says, naked and squirming in her blood (Ezek.16:2).  But God took her unto himself, washing and clothing her.  She grew tall.  It says with characteristic bluntness that her breasts and pubic hair were grown (v.7). Then she turned to spiritual prostitution with the idols of the nations.  "But you trusted in your beauty and played the harlot because of your fame, and you poured out your harlotries on every passer-by who might be willing...you spread your legs to every passer-by to multiply your harlotry" (v.15, 25).  Such were the actions of the boldest of prostitutes.  God says Israel "did not forsake her harlotries from the time in Egypt; for in her youth men had lain with her, and they handled her virgin bosom and poured out their lust on her" (Ezek. 23:3, 8). "She lusted after her paramours, whose flesh is like the flesh of donkeys and whose issue [or penis] is like the issue of horses. Thus you longed for the lewdness of your youth, when the Egyptians handled your bosom because of the breasts of your youth" (v. 20-21).  

        As God thus describes His original spiritual bride with her adulteries "between her breasts," we are stopped in our tracks by such language. Why is it so important that God shock us?  He attempts to compel us to consider one of the most ominous facts of all time: Israel was and remains the mother of the principle of spiritual whoredom, first to have a spiritual union with God and first to corrupt it. Israel is "Babylon the Great, the mother of harlots and of the abominations of the earth" of Revelation 17 and 18. (See 'Babylon the Great' is Israel)

        The bizarre experience of the prophet Hosea confirms that God will go to incredible lengths to dramatize this.  God was willing to overturn even His own law against sɛҳuąƖ impurity and commanded righteous, sɛҳuąƖly pure Hosea to marry a harlot and even have children through her. Hosea's experience thus reflects in the most extreme manner that a pure and holy God has similarly been cuckolded by apostate Jєωs and continues to be so to this hour.

        These shocking Scriptures are God's way of telling His people for all time that whatever shock, drama, or specificity is necessary to draw attention to the fact that Jєωιѕн apostasy is the Great Harlot is to be encouraged as it is led by the Holy Spirit. Since it is the most dangerous system of evil that will ever exist on this planet, the Lord commands His watchmen to "Cry aloud!  Spare not!" (Isaiah 58:1) He calls all who are His, both Jєω and Gentile, to flee Zionism and the anti-Christ state of Israel and not be contaminated by her wickedness.

        Evangelicals have ignored the warning these shocking Scriptures provide.  The church virtually never reads or preaches on them with any force, specificity, or real spiritual insight.  This is tragic because they were meant to warn God's people of the church's greatest enemy, an enemy that will someday persecute the church to near extinction, her garments dripping with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus (Rev.17:6).  Jesus said His followers would be condemned to prison in her ѕуηαgσgυєs in the last days (Luke 21:12).   Because the church has been ashamed of these graphic Scriptures and ignored God's identification of Judaism as the Great Harlot, the pro-Zionist evangelical church has been massively deceived by her.  This fulfills Christ's prophecy of deception of the church in the last days (Matt. 24:24).  As a result, although God specifically describes Israel as the harlot more than 80 times in the Old Testament, the pro-Zionist church has no conception that Judaism might be a candidate for identification as Babylon the Great.  Instead, it speculates that Rome, New York City, etc. might be the great whore of Revelation.

        Church: Place for the Whole Truth

        Censorship of truth from the pulpit threatens the pastor's salvation since he is derelict in his duty as the watchman appointed by God and the people to warn of all danger, not just the uncontroversial kind.  If a pastor agrees not to publicly mention even one socially unacceptable topic, there will be another and yet another on which he must be silent.  In most evangelical churches this results in a nearly total ban on unpleasantness from the outside world.

        Pastors must not sin against their squeamish parishioners by submitting to censorship.  Instead, they should respond as did the prophet Micaiah when asked by the king's official to go along with popular opinion: “As the Lord lives, what the Lord says to me, that I shall speak” (I Kings 22:14).

        People in the pew also should be aware that they are acting contrary to God's law, as did those of Jeremiah's time, by asking to be taught only with smooth words.  Every Christian must agree to hear anything from anyone who is led to oppose sin and expose it to the light. This is exactly what Jesus did in His lengthy and blistering denunciations of the founders of Orthodox Judaism, the Pharisees (Matt.23:27).  Following the example of Jesus, we should do the same; and Jesus' example of speaking out against evil Jєωιѕн leaders should also embolden Christian leaders and laypersons to just as boldly speak against all manner of sin, fleshliness, and hypocrisy, especially within the organized church.  

        Christians who yearn for freedom from offense and controversy more than for truth should realize that unspeakable evil is going undiscussed and unreproved. Christian prudishness protests the violation of social conventions, while ignoring much larger issues and needs.

        In these passages from Ezekiel and Hosea we find God basically saying to a prudish church through the ages: Yes, I have staggering truth I would like to give you, but I am going to require that you humble yourselves and your pride in being proper and respectable.  You must get out of your comfort zone.

        Today, the majority of pastors and their congregations have decided that church should be a pleasant, high-minded experience, not a place to be marred, muddied, and shamed in pursuit of the whole truth, not a place to publicly reprove or be reproved, not a place to expose secret sins in the congregation or society.  They will not read and teach in depth from Ezekiel 16 and Hosea or from passages like that of the Levite in Judges 19 who cut his concubine in 12 pieces and sent her throughout Israel to provide shocking testimony against incipient ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity in the land.  Or the passage in Isaiah 20 describing how Isaiah, in warning against Egypt's sins, was required to walk naked and barefoot for three years in their sight, exactly the condition they would be in when soon deported by the conquering Assyrians.

        Prudishness can manifest itself in a number of ways, but in the Christian context it basically means embarrassment with the shame of speaking the whole truth, instead desiring conventionality and social safety. This cuts off Christian action at the knees. Despising the shame, we must go forward to speak and do what may be socially inappropriate but what is God's will, so necessary to save life, truth, and freedom.

         


               


    Offline Cantarella

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    Who is the Great Whore of Babylon?
    « Reply #1 on: April 10, 2014, 12:59:23 PM »
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  • Quote from: hollingsworth
    While we busily "resist" various things, particularly a "practical" agreement with Rome, and a host of post-Conciliar irregularities, along with the popes who promote them , another great, overriding evil continues its steady, destructive onslaught.  It seems we all but ignore this sensitive issue.  Admittedly it makes me squeamish.  Yet thousands of years ago the Old Testament prophets warned us about Israel's harlotry and some of the unspeakable details about it.  I doubt that even a traditional Catholic priest would touch this matter with a ten foot pole.  Alas, it appears that only one or two  courageous Protestant pastors dare to confront the issue presently.

    ............

        Social reformers must first fight the church's belief that it is virtuous to not even know of such evil!   Many Christians take refuge from evil by quoting Paul who said he would prefer believers to be "wise about what is good, and innocent about what is evil" (Rom. 16:19) and "…it is disgraceful even to speak of the things which are done by them in secret" (Eph. 5:11). Yet Paul also describes Christians as soldiers, covered with spiritual armor who battle "against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places" (Eph. 6:12).   A soldier who is not supplied with the most complete information on the nature and empowerments of his enemy may well be killed unnecessarily.  In the same way that every major city employs detectives and a vice squad to obtain the fullest knowledge of the criminal element, so the church and its families can only be protected by possessing an adequate knowledge of the many foes arrayed against us.
         

               


    Thank you for an excellent read. This article is remarkably good. I wish the protestant author converts to the only True Church of Christ: The Holy Roman Catholic Church. I really think he will in due time, given his fierce search for truth and his zeal for spiritual battle.
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.


    Offline Exurge

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    Who is the Great Whore of Babylon?
    « Reply #2 on: April 10, 2014, 01:36:21 PM »
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  • Offline Ladislaus

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    Who is the Great Whore of Babylon?
    « Reply #3 on: April 10, 2014, 01:56:23 PM »
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  • Miley Cyrus?

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Who is the Great Whore of Babylon?
    « Reply #4 on: April 10, 2014, 01:58:49 PM »
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  • In all seriousness, though, the Novus Ordo establishment fits with many of the characteristics described in Revelation.


    Offline Charlemagne

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    Who is the Great Whore of Babylon?
    « Reply #5 on: April 10, 2014, 04:54:22 PM »
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  • Quote from: Exurge
    The Whore of Babylon


    I don't agree with everything the Dimonds write, but I've always liked this article. It's very well done, and I find their arguments plausible.
    "This principle is most certain: The non-Christian cannot in any way be Pope. The reason for this is that he cannot be head of what he is not a member. Now, he who is not a Christian is not a member of the Church, and a manifest heretic is not a Christian, as is clearly taught by St. Cyprian, St. Athanasius, St. Augustine, St. Jerome, and others. Therefore, the manifest heretic cannot be Pope." -- St. Robert Bellarmine

    Offline Exurge

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    Who is the Great Whore of Babylon?
    « Reply #6 on: April 10, 2014, 05:08:16 PM »
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  • Quote from: Charlemagne
    Quote from: Exurge
    The Whore of Babylon


    I don't agree with everything the Dimonds write, but I've always liked this article. It's very well done, and I find their arguments plausible.


    Same here. It's hard to see how the Novus Ordo can possibly not be the Whore. I mean, what else could there be? If this is not the deception that would fool even the elect, what would it be then?


    Offline Nishant

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    Who is the Great Whore of Babylon?
    « Reply #7 on: April 11, 2014, 02:16:00 AM »
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  • The OP article posted by Hollingsworth is excellent, but the Dimond article posted by Exurge, is not the traditional interpretation (always check to see if the Fathers, or other authorities on the passages are cited) at all, but a novelty, and it also borders on heresy.

    Quote from: Msgr. Fenton
    From time to time heretics have pointed to the seventeenth and the eighteenth chapters of the Apocalypse as indication that ultimately there would be no followers of Christ within the city of Rome. St. Robert admitted such a possibility at the end of the world, but pointed out the traditional interpretation of this section of the Apocalypse, particularly that popularized by St. Augustine, had nothing to do with the Roman Church during the period immediately preceding the general judgment. Francis Sylvius demonstrated that any application of this section of the Apocalypse to the Roman Church was merely fanciful. Modern theologians, Franzelin and Crosta in particular, have followed this procedure.

    Another highly important and sometimes overlooked prerogative of the local Roman Church is its infallibility. By reason of its peculiar place in the universal Church militant, this individual congregation has always been and will always be protected from corporate heresy by God's providential power. The local Church of Rome, with its bishop, its presbyterium, its clergy and its laity will exist until the end of time secure in the purity of its faith. St. Cyprian alluded to this charism when he spoke of the Catholic Romans as those "ad quos perfidia habere non potest accessum."

    This infallibility, not only of the Roman Pontiff, but also of the local Church of Rome, was a central theme in the ecclesiology of some of the greatest Counter-Reformation theologians. Cardinal Hosius proposed this thesis in his polemic against Brentius. John Driedo developed it magnificently. St. Robert explained this teaching by saying that the Roman clergy and the Roman laity, as a corporate unit, could never fall away from the faith. The Roman Church, as an individual local institution, can never fall away from the faith. Manifestly the same guarantee is given to no other local Church.

    It is interesting to note that during the prolonged vacancy of the Roman See the pres -by -ters and the deacons of Rome wrote to St. Cyprian in such a way as to manifest their conviction that the faith of their own local Church, even during this interregnum, constituted a norm to which the faith of other local Churches was meant to conform. The Roman Church could not possibly be the one with which all the other local congregations of Christendom must agree were it not endowed with a special infallibility. In order to be effective that infallibility must be acknowledged in a very practical manner by the other local units of the Church militant throughout the world.

    Actually the infallibility of the Roman Church is much more than a mere theological opinion. The proposition that "the Church of the city of Rome can fall into error" is one of the theses of Peter de Osma, formally condemned by Pope Sixtus IV as erroneous and as containing manifest heresy.


    The Roman Church, even in a supposed interregnum remains the Mother and Mistress of Churches, and fulfils its role as principle of unity within the universal Church. No Catholic can wilfully sever communion from the Roman Church, and must believe, in an interregnum, that Roman clergy incardinated into that diocese by a Pope still exist and must will to subject himself to them, and profess communion with them. As Msgr. Fenton shows, this is Catholic doctrine. And the Dimonds, no surprise, have it wrong.
    "Never will anyone who says his Rosary every day become a formal heretic ... This is a statement I would sign in my blood." St. Montfort, Secret of the Rosary. I support the FSSP, the SSPX and other priests who work for the restoration of doctrinal orthodoxy and liturgical orthopraxis in the Church. I accept Vatican II if interpreted in the light of Tradition and canonisations as an infallible declaration that a person is in Heaven. Sedevacantism is schismatic and Ecclesiavacantism is heretical.


    Offline Exurge

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    Who is the Great Whore of Babylon?
    « Reply #8 on: April 12, 2014, 10:14:46 AM »
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  • Quote from: Nishant
    The OP article posted by Hollingsworth is excellent, but the Dimond article posted by Exurge, is not the traditional interpretation (always check to see if the Fathers, or other authorities on the passages are cited) at all, but a novelty, and it also borders on heresy.

    Quote from: Msgr. Fenton
    From time to time heretics have pointed to the seventeenth and the eighteenth chapters of the Apocalypse as indication that ultimately there would be no followers of Christ within the city of Rome. St. Robert admitted such a possibility at the end of the world, but pointed out the traditional interpretation of this section of the Apocalypse, particularly that popularized by St. Augustine, had nothing to do with the Roman Church during the period immediately preceding the general judgment. Francis Sylvius demonstrated that any application of this section of the Apocalypse to the Roman Church was merely fanciful. Modern theologians, Franzelin and Crosta in particular, have followed this procedure.

    Another highly important and sometimes overlooked prerogative of the local Roman Church is its infallibility. By reason of its peculiar place in the universal Church militant, this individual congregation has always been and will always be protected from corporate heresy by God's providential power. The local Church of Rome, with its bishop, its ####ium, its clergy and its laity will exist until the end of time secure in the purity of its faith. St. Cyprian alluded to this charism when he spoke of the Catholic Romans as those "ad quos perfidia habere non potest accessum."

    This infallibility, not only of the Roman Pontiff, but also of the local Church of Rome, was a central theme in the ecclesiology of some of the greatest Counter-Reformation theologians. Cardinal Hosius proposed this thesis in his polemic against Brentius. John Driedo developed it magnificently. St. Robert explained this teaching by saying that the Roman clergy and the Roman laity, as a corporate unit, could never fall away from the faith. The Roman Church, as an individual local institution, can never fall away from the faith. Manifestly the same guarantee is given to no other local Church.

    It is interesting to note that during the prolonged vacancy of the Roman See the pres -by -ters and the deacons of Rome wrote to St. Cyprian in such a way as to manifest their conviction that the faith of their own local Church, even during this interregnum, constituted a norm to which the faith of other local Churches was meant to conform. The Roman Church could not possibly be the one with which all the other local congregations of Christendom must agree were it not endowed with a special infallibility. In order to be effective that infallibility must be acknowledged in a very practical manner by the other local units of the Church militant throughout the world.

    Actually the infallibility of the Roman Church is much more than a mere theological opinion. The proposition that "the Church of the city of Rome can fall into error" is one of the theses of Peter de Osma, formally condemned by Pope Sixtus IV as erroneous and as containing manifest heresy.


    The Roman Church, even in a supposed interregnum remains the Mother and Mistress of Churches, and fulfils its role as principle of unity within the universal Church. No Catholic can wilfully sever communion from the Roman Church, and must believe, in an interregnum, that Roman clergy incardinated into that diocese by a Pope still exist and must will to subject himself to them, and profess communion with them. As Msgr. Fenton shows, this is Catholic doctrine. And the Dimonds, no surprise, have it wrong.


    It is plainly obvious now that they got it all wrong, Fenton and the rest, because what they thought was impossible happened with Vatican 2.

    To deny that the local Church of Rome is in error, heresy and even apostasy is like saying that the Latin Mass is still the norm and the only Mass said.

    Isnt this what you say anyways? "Modernist Rome"? What's that all about?

    Of course, the only escape route is to say that it is NOT the local Church of Rome right now, because it has been occupied by heretics and apostates, just as the only thing you can say is that the Novus Ordo is not the Catholic Church.

    I fail to see how the Dimond's article is anywhere near heretical or erroneous. On the contrary, your idea that the Church defected and is in error is what is heretical, and actually blasphemy.

    Offline Matto

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    Who is the Great Whore of Babylon?
    « Reply #9 on: April 12, 2014, 12:31:41 PM »
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  • Quote from: Exurge
    It is plainly obvious now that they got it all wrong, Fenton and the rest, because what they thought was impossible happened with Vatican 2.

    To deny that the local Church of Rome is in error, heresy and even apostasy is like saying that the Latin Mass is still the norm and the only Mass said.

    Yes, many of the posters here say that the local Church of Rome can never defect, even though they can not point to a single member of the Roman hierarchy who hasn't defected. They say it must never defect against all the evidence because some theologians said that before the crisis began.
    R.I.P.
    Please pray for the repose of my soul.

    Offline Exurge

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    Who is the Great Whore of Babylon?
    « Reply #10 on: April 12, 2014, 12:56:40 PM »
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  • Quote from: Matto
    Quote from: Exurge
    It is plainly obvious now that they got it all wrong, Fenton and the rest, because what they thought was impossible happened with Vatican 2.

    To deny that the local Church of Rome is in error, heresy and even apostasy is like saying that the Latin Mass is still the norm and the only Mass said.

    Yes, many of the posters here say that the local Church of Rome can never defect, even though they can not point to a single member of the Roman hierarchy who hasn't defected. They say it must never defect against all the evidence because some theologians said that before the crisis began.


    How can they keep saying it can't defect, when they themselves tell us it has defected?


    Offline Nishant

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    Who is the Great Whore of Babylon?
    « Reply #11 on: April 12, 2014, 01:25:04 PM »
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  • I don't know that we should discuss this here, as this thread was meant to be about something else. Perhaps in a new thread?

    I'm surprised, because weren't you the one who just criticized the Dimond's habit of frequently rejecting Saints, Doctors, theologians for their own ideas, Exurge? Well, you're doing the same here, yourself. Far worse, in fact. If this is the first time you've heard this doctrine, you should rather study the matter more carefully, from traditional sources, and consider what it's implications might be for today.

    Rather than revise timeless teaching on the basis of your personal views of the crisis, you should revise your personal views of the crisis on the basis of timeless teaching. The Faith says the Roman Church as a particular Church is indefectible, moreover that it is the foundation of the universal Church, that every particular Church throughout the world must desire to be in and profess communion with the Roman Church, at all times, sedis plenae or sede vacante.

    If you claim absolutely that all Roman clerics are all outside the Church, because they are every single one of them apostates or whatever, and that you don't need to desire and profess communion with them, then that proposition is erroneous and bordering on heresy, and tending to schism, condemned by the teaching of Msgr. Fenton, St. Robert, Pope Sixtus among so many others, above. Obviously, non-sede traditional Catholics are not committed to any such claim, we know the chairs of authority in Rome are still occupied, although to differing degrees its occupants are compromised, whether by cunning men causing the destruction of the Church, or by weak men overseeing it and incapable of preventing it.
    "Never will anyone who says his Rosary every day become a formal heretic ... This is a statement I would sign in my blood." St. Montfort, Secret of the Rosary. I support the FSSP, the SSPX and other priests who work for the restoration of doctrinal orthodoxy and liturgical orthopraxis in the Church. I accept Vatican II if interpreted in the light of Tradition and canonisations as an infallible declaration that a person is in Heaven. Sedevacantism is schismatic and Ecclesiavacantism is heretical.

    Offline Ambrose

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    Who is the Great Whore of Babylon?
    « Reply #12 on: April 12, 2014, 01:31:30 PM »
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  • Quote from: Matto
    Quote from: Exurge
    It is plainly obvious now that they got it all wrong, Fenton and the rest, because what they thought was impossible happened with Vatican 2.

    To deny that the local Church of Rome is in error, heresy and even apostasy is like saying that the Latin Mass is still the norm and the only Mass said.

    Yes, many of the posters here say that the local Church of Rome can never defect, even though they can not point to a single member of the Roman hierarchy who hasn't defected. They say it must never defect against all the evidence because some theologians said that before the crisis began.


    If even one member of the clergy of Rome has kept the Faith, the diocese of Rome has not failed.  If you or anyone wishes to make a case against all remaining members of the Roman Clergy, feel free to do so.  

    The onus is always on the accusers to prove their case.  Once the evidence is presented, those of us who defend the sound doctrine will respond.

    The Council of Trent, The Catechism of the Council of Trent, Papal Teaching, The Teaching of the Holy Office, The Teaching of the Church Fathers, The Code of Canon Law, Countless approved catechisms, The Doctors of the Church, The teaching of the Dogmatic

    Offline Matto

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    Who is the Great Whore of Babylon?
    « Reply #13 on: April 12, 2014, 01:36:34 PM »
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  • Quote from: Ambrose

    If even one member of the clergy of Rome has kept the Faith, the diocese of Rome has not failed.  If you or anyone wishes to make a case against all remaining members of the Roman Clergy, feel free to do so.

    So you say the Church teaches that at least one member of the Roman clergy must keep the faith. Only one would be enough? I guess there could be one who is not a heretic who we haven't heard about.
    R.I.P.
    Please pray for the repose of my soul.

    Offline Ambrose

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    Who is the Great Whore of Babylon?
    « Reply #14 on: April 12, 2014, 01:38:48 PM »
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  • Quote from: Matto
    Quote from: Ambrose

    If even one member of the clergy of Rome has kept the Faith, the diocese of Rome has not failed.  If you or anyone wishes to make a case against all remaining members of the Roman Clergy, feel free to do so.

    So you say the Church teaches that at least one member of the Roman clergy must keep the faith. Only one would be enough? I guess there could be one who is not a heretic who we haven't heard about.


    In my opinion, many of the Roman clerics would still have the Faith, but so long as one remains who has the Faith, the diocese has not failed.

    A diocese is made up of clerics and laity.  So long as that remains, the diocese remains.
    The Council of Trent, The Catechism of the Council of Trent, Papal Teaching, The Teaching of the Holy Office, The Teaching of the Church Fathers, The Code of Canon Law, Countless approved catechisms, The Doctors of the Church, The teaching of the Dogmatic