Quote from: Jamie

Quote from: CM

Quote from: Summa, II, II, 83. 11.

Reply to Objection 3. Those who are in Purgatory though they are above us on account of their impeccability, yet they are below us as to the pains which they suffer: and in this respect they are not in a condition to pray, but rather in a condition that requires us to pray for them.

Thanks for posting this - I retract my previously expressed view on this issue in order to conform myself with St Thomas Aquinas.

Is it De Fide though that souls in Purgatory cant pray for us?

They are after all very much in the Church and in a state of Grace while probably one of the worse things about damnation is that souls in that state can no longer pray.

Clovis no - but in matters where the question is still open I always submit to St Thomas Aquinas.

Praying for Ratzinger could easily be spiritually dangerous and possibly essentially wrong in the eyes of God.

I don't agree with this.  Ratzinger is the epitome of "they that persecute you".  And Christ exhorted us to pray for such.  Scripture shows us that such prayers, when uttered by Catholics, can bear tremendous fruit:

And casting him forth without the city, they stoned him; and the witnesses laid down their garments at the feet of a young man, whose name was Saul. And they stoned Stephen, invoking, and saying: Lord Jesus, receive my spirit. And falling on his knees, he cried with a loud voice, saying: Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep in the Lord. And Saul was consenting to his death.

We all know what became of Saul.

How could that be bad when we pray for the Jews to have the veil lifted from their eyes on Good Friday?

Thats a liturgical prayer and as such being an offical prayer of the Church is blessed at the very least and probably directly inspired by the Holy Ghost....But I see where you are coming from. Maybe Im wrong. I will have to pray about this.

While brooding over this conundrum, I flipped open the Summa Theologica at random to Part III, Question 47, Of the Efficient Causes of Christ's Passion, and found the following:

"Bede, likewise, commenting upon the words, 'For they know not what they do,' says 'It is to be observed that He does not pray for them who, understanding Him to be the Son of God, preferred to crucify Him rather than acknowledge Him.'"

Christ only prayed for those who were ignorant of what they were doing.

On the contrary, as St. Thomas would say, would it have  been wrong to pray for the conversion of Saul?  He was very determined to persecute Christians, much like one of today's Modernist anti-Popes, but at the same time he was ignorant of the true God.

I answer that ( this is fun ), we should not pray for the forgiveness of those who are persecuting God and the Church while they are yet in that state, while they are acting as persecutors.  But we can pray for their conversion, which, if it comes about, may then lead to their forgiveness.  

If Christ neglected to pray for even the conversion of some of his persecutors that is because He could see into their hearts, and knew it would be no use.  We cannot do that.  However, wasn't it proven that God prays for His persecutors whom He knows beforehand will repent when the Holy Ghost said to Saul, "Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?"  Therefore how much more should we humans, without any knowledge of what goes on in a man's heart, pray for all men to be converted, even the worst?  We cannot tell a Saul from a Caiphas.

But what if someone dies in their heresies or errors or unbelief or defiance, with no outward sign of repentance.  Would it be wrong to pray for them?  

We can only judge by externals.  If someone commits ѕυιcιdє, what more is there to say?  Can they be buried in hallowed ground, or prayed for as if they have a chance to go to heaven?  There's a prayer in the Mass where you can insert the name of the dead faithful -- could you insert the names here of anyone whose faithfulness was in doubt?  

The book is closed on the dead.  Yes, they might have had a final moment of repentance, but as humans who only see externals, shouldn't our prayers be based on those externals?  Isn't this why Catholics used to refuse prayer for dead catechumens who, as far as we can see are not in the earthly Church, the Church Militant?

Pretty nifty segue, eh?  ( Yes, I disagree with the untrustworthy Code of Canon Law 1917 that catechumens should be buried in hallowed ground -- it feels wrong and now I know why ).

*****

I'm not sure that it is always wrong to pray for someone who dies in a public state of disgrace, boasting of their atheism or the like.  Hence all the question marks.  I personally would not do it -- it feels like an error of human respect.  A ѕυιcιdє should be quickly buried without prayers, as he failed to obtain final perseverance, due to some fault or sin of his, and this can be objectively known by the act itself of ѕυιcιdє.

I suppose, bringing this back to JPII, if there is ANY chance that he converted before death, we can pray for his forgiveness, but only if we make sure to show God that we are only praying for him conditionally IF he repented.  Such is my opinion.  To know he was a rat-fink who sold out the Church for decades and died gloating over his misdeeds, and to still pray for him, hoping that God forgives him despite all that as some kind of extraordinary act of mercy, strikes me as very bad.  

As with the ѕυιcιdє, I personally would not pray for him at all as there are no reasonable grounds to suspect that he ever changed.  But I believe it's certainly permissible, even laudable and an act of charity, to pray for the worst heretics while they're alive and have a chance to convert.

Quote from: Raoul76

No, I'm asking.  I don't know.  I remember praying for Martin Luther once and feeling kind of dirty afterwards, and that was before I was Catholic.

However, I have prayed for Ratzinger and feel all right about it.  He is alive and could possibly repent.

Praying for Ratzinger could easily be spiritually dangerous and possibly essentially wrong in the eyes of God.

Unless God actually tells you through His Mother, or an angel or Saint to pray for him I wouldnt. Even than we should beware of visions...I think there are certain give away signs as to whether a vision comes from Heaven or Hell.

We are commanded to pray for everyone, this saying we should not pray for Joseph Ratzinger is sinful and not Catholic at all

All those question marks Mike - not very St. Thomas like. :furtive:

I suppose, bringing this back to JPII, if there is ANY chance that he converted before death, we can pray for his forgiveness, but only if we make sure to show God that we are only praying for him conditionally IF he repented.  Such is my opinion.  To know he was a rat-fink who sold out the Church for decades and died gloating over his misdeeds, and to still pray for him, hoping that God forgives him despite all that as some kind of extraordinary act of mercy, strikes me as very bad.

There is a reason that there are prayers "For the souls in Purgatory" in general.  It's so that we don't pray for people who visibly died in evils, and it's so that they may still benefit from our intercession if they were invisibly penitent at the end.

because he always spoke and spoke and never really did anything, which in a subtle way kept the Anti-Christ in power

What preposerous rubbish.  ABL did nothing?  He didn't withstand the onslaught of the diabolical disorientation?  He didn't found and maintain a fraternity that almost single-handedly preserve catholic tradition?  He didn't write works that helped millions of souls direct themselves?  What do you think teaching and preaching accomplishes?  What, are you some kind of activist who doesn't appreciate spiritual works?  And what have you done?  Sit there at your computer and cast aspersions on great catholics?  You are a pathetic little man.