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Author Topic: Where is Pope John Paul II?  (Read 10164 times)

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Offline trad123

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Where is Pope John Paul II?
« Reply #30 on: January 26, 2010, 12:32:54 AM »
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  • CM,

    You state:

    Quote
    ...while I believe it is technically possible for him to have died as a Catholic, I find the notion repugnant and smacking of insult to God and His Holy Mother.


    and then:

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    I hereby declare my unwavering conviction that John Paul 2 did NOT have a true devotion to Mary and that he is in hell and worthy of nothing but hate.


    Regardless of whether his devotion to Mary was true or not, God's grace is available to anyone before they die.

    I will quote Dulcamara again:

    Quote
    Only God knows what passed in that person's very last moments, in the interior of their soul. Sure, a lot of people obviously (and wickedly) seem to want to see his soul in hell... but that doesn't change the fact that God can give grace to any sinner, however great a sinner (or heretic, or schismatic, or whatever) that they were, even up until the last moment of their lives.


    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline Clovis

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    Where is Pope John Paul II?
    « Reply #31 on: January 26, 2010, 12:33:43 AM »
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  • Quote from: CM


    I hereby declare my unwavering conviction that John Paul 2 did NOT have a true devotion to Mary and that he is in hell and worthy of nothing but hate.


    We could also say that if God did rescue his soul at the last moment that surely also He would have allowed JP II to make a public act of retraction for his very public apostasy from Christ...And I agree with you thats it hard to fathom someone having a True Devotion to Our Lady and yet spitting on her Son to the extent that he did...But can we have a conviction that he is in Hell?


    Offline CM

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    Where is Pope John Paul II?
    « Reply #32 on: January 26, 2010, 12:39:28 AM »
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  • I just said I do, so evidently yes.

    Conviction:  an unshakable belief in something without need for proof or evidence.

    Now we have MORE than enough evidence for his damnation, so what's the problem?

    Offline Dulcamara

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    Where is Pope John Paul II?
    « Reply #33 on: January 26, 2010, 02:16:31 AM »
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  • The Faith that I know teaches "love thy enemies, do good to them that hate you. Pray for them that speak evil against you..."

    Our Lord, hanging on the cross, did not look down at the men who literally crucified him... not just lived bad lives and led others astray, but committed the singularly heinous act of DEICIDE. He did not shout down condemnations, or strike them dead. Rather His prayer was what I believe the prayer of every Catholic should be for every sinner, however grave, whatever the extent of their crimes: "Father forgive them."

    It's easy to look at the men in the church over the last some decades and say, "these men MUST know they're destroying the faith of the people, they MUST be evil!" But were you with them in the seminary? Look at what the average Catholic knows of his or her faith today, and think of some priest those people trust teaching them errors... perhaps errors they themselves were taught without taking them up out of malice. If a priest in a SEMINARY, before modernism had it's day in the sun, taught someone something, it's relatively easy to see how a young man would have believed it. BEFORE Vatican II, why WOULDN'T they believe what a teacher in a Catholic seminary said? And likewise those who taught the teachers.

    A wise man once pointed out that in order for the men of the Church to do the work of the bad guys who really do want to see the Church in ruins, they need not WANT to see it that way personally. They may have the best of intentions. All that matters is that they THINK like the bad guys. Well, for that to happen, all you need is to get the bad guys into positions ordinary Catholics normally would have trusted.

    When you encounter young priests of the novus ordo sort, at least with some of them you get the strong impression of how they have no idea what the ideas they teach really are in the light of truth. Rather, you get the impression that these are men who were told certain things, and accepted them as truths. They are taught errors, and answers that they are taught support or prove the errors to be true. The men I speak of here show no malice for the Church, the Lord, or His flock (that they mean as malice, anyway). Yes, there are many who are different, but also some that really are like what I've just said.

    It's much easier, of course, to just condemn them all, because we're offended by what they say and do. Certainly it feels better for our egos. "I give thee thanks that I am not like this heretic... I fast, do penance, attend a Latin Mass..." When every human being on the earth has only the right to be saying "have mercy on me, for I am a sinful man, o Lord."

    But when it comes down to it, only God can say whether this or that man knew he was in error, or was destroying the Church. ALL human beings can be deceived by someone, especially if they trust anyone, which we all inevitably do. Mankind was never meant to have to live life like a paranoid schizophrenic, always looking out for a bad guy behind every bush. We naturally trust others. So have many of these men. Has their trust been misplaced? Certainly. Are they, ALL OF THEM evil? I very much doubt it. But perhaps I shouldn't be surprised at those who dare to judge popes and even saints as if they were God, condemning these men who were, like ourselves, sinners.

    Still, throughout history those who have had, to the most perfect degree, the spirit of Christ living in them, they have prayed for, done penance for, sacrificed for and begged God to spare sinners. Even great sinners. And again, the Lord Himself prayed, even for those who murdered Him unjustly.

    If the saints can pray for heretics and sinners and horrible criminals of every kind, because the love of God is in them to desire the salvation, not the damnation, of the souls God surely did not ever desire to see in hell, and if God Himself can pray for those who tore to pieces His physical body... I believe the example of the spirit of Christ in us is clear. If sinners, the blind, or even willfully malicious heretics and atheists, should spend their lives trying to tear to pieces the body of the Church, I believe what God would want (not what WE want, but what He would want) is for us to pray that they amend their lives and are converted, before it is too late for them to do so, even at the end. After all, think of all of the saints who started out as sinners, only to amend their lives and live them as blazing examples of holiness because they appreciated just how low they had sunk before.

    Our Blessed Mother has come to earth multiple times with the message, "pray for sinners." Are we to believe that she only meant just the "pretty good people" out there who happen to commit some occasional venial sins out of weakness? Or shall we suppose rather, that she meant ALL sinners, regardless of the degree of their sins... or perhaps even because of their gravity?

    Call me whatever names you will, but I am going to go with Our Lord, Our Lady and the example of the saints. I believe we ought to pray for sinners... for ALL sinners... and hope that they save their souls. Anyone who takes delight in the damnation of a soul, I would worry that such a person has lost sight of what should be most evident to us whenever we see a crucifix... How much God loved us, and desired the salvation of men, not their damnation. To love God is to love what God loves... and God loves souls. If we hate them, knowing that it was one of His torments to know how many of them would be lost, have we really the love of Him in us?

    I know it's easy to get upset/frustrated at what these men have done to the Church of Our Lord, but still... when we loose sight of the law He died proclaiming... the law of charity... what good is anything else in us, or anything else we do?

    "And if I should have prophecy and should know all mysteries, and all knowledge, and if I should have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing. And if I should distribute all my goods to feed the poor, and if I should deliver my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing."
    I renounce any and all of my former views against what the Church through Pope Leo XIII said, "This, then, is the teaching of the Catholic Church ...no one of the several forms of government is in itself condemned, inasmuch as none of them contains anythi

    Offline Clovis

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    Where is Pope John Paul II?
    « Reply #34 on: January 26, 2010, 03:21:53 AM »
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  • Quote from: Dulcamara

    Still, throughout history those who have had, to the most perfect degree, the spirit of Christ living in them, they have prayed for, done penance for, sacrificed for and begged God to spare sinners. Even great sinners. And again, the Lord Himself prayed, even for those who murdered Him unjustly.


    Saints have also physically assulted people while they were in sancity (St Kevin and St Nicholas the wonderworker come to mind) and even prayed to God to kill people (St Patrick) also. The ways of the infinite and all knowing God our beyond our comprhension so most of the time its best to shut up and beware both of our tendency to the soft inquitity of sentimentality and to bitter zeal's perverted ability to ascribe our fallen anger unto God Himself.


    Offline Clovis

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    Where is Pope John Paul II?
    « Reply #35 on: January 26, 2010, 03:25:05 AM »
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  • Quote from: CM
    I just said I do, so evidently yes.

    Conviction:  an unshakable belief in something without need for proof or evidence.

    Now we have MORE than enough evidence for his damnation, so what's the problem?


    Main Entry: con·vic·tion
    Pronunciation: kən-ˈvik-shən
    Function: noun
    Date: 15th century
    1 : the act or process of convicting of a crime especially in a court of law
    2 a : the act of convincing a person of error or of compelling the admission of a truth b : the state of being convinced of error or compelled to admit the truth
    3 a : a strong persuasion or belief b : the state of being convinced


    Offline CM

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    Where is Pope John Paul II?
    « Reply #36 on: January 26, 2010, 03:27:13 AM »
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  • Why are you showing me two ways in which I didn't use the word and one in which I did?

    Offline Clovis

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    Where is Pope John Paul II?
    « Reply #37 on: January 26, 2010, 03:30:41 AM »
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  • Quote from: CM
    Why are you showing me two ways in which I didn't use the word and one in which I did?


    "Conviction:  an unshakable belief in something without need for proof or evidence."

    The way you used it isnt in the dictionary.



    Offline CM

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    Where is Pope John Paul II?
    « Reply #38 on: January 26, 2010, 03:32:18 AM »
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  • Dulcamara, I have responded to you.

    Quote from: Clovis
    Saints have also physically assulted people while they were in sancity (St Kevin and St Nicholas the wonderworker come to mind) and even prayed to God to kill people (St Patrick) also.


    This is true, and St. Patrick was AMAZING!

    As the story goes, he was reputed for his raising people from death, so a couple of vagabonds, seeking to make fun of him pretended one of their friends was dead so that they could mock him.

    St. Patrick said something like: "You're trying to deceive me, but what you are saying is actually true." and then he left.

    After he was gone, the hoodlums tried to rouse their friend but found him dead.  They chased after St. Patrick and begged him to forgive them, and so he went back, raised the dead guy back to life and they were all baptized.

    Quote from: Clovis
    The ways of the infinite and all knowing God our beyond our comprhension so most of the time its best to shut up and beware both of our tendency to the soft inquitity of sentimentality and to bitter zeal's perverted ability to ascribe our fallen anger unto God Himself.


    Sounds a lot like R.I. to me.

    Offline CM

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    Where is Pope John Paul II?
    « Reply #39 on: January 26, 2010, 03:33:09 AM »
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  • Quote from: Clovis
    The way you used it isnt in the dictionary.


    Hmmm... did you look in the right one? :wink:

    Offline Raoul76

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    Where is Pope John Paul II?
    « Reply #40 on: January 26, 2010, 03:37:59 AM »
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  • Is it ever wrong to pray for someone who we know died in a wretched condition, like Martin Luther, whose last words were to curse the Pope?  If you KNOW for a fact there was no final repentance, isn't it kind of twisted to pray for someone?
    Readers: Please IGNORE all my postings here. I was a recent convert and fell into errors, even heresy for which hopefully my ignorance excuses. These include rejecting the "rhythm method," rejecting the idea of "implicit faith," and being brieflfy quasi-Jansenist. I also posted occasions of sins and links to occasions of sin, not understanding the concept much at the time, so do not follow my links.


    Offline CM

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    Where is Pope John Paul II?
    « Reply #41 on: January 26, 2010, 03:40:36 AM »
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  • I had the same thought, roughly.

    Quote from: CM
    If a person dies before you screaming something like "to h**l with J**** C****t!", are you going to love him or hate him?  What if it is your father?  Are you going to hold out hope that at the very last minute he repented before you could see it take place?

    Offline Raoul76

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    Where is Pope John Paul II?
    « Reply #42 on: January 26, 2010, 03:41:45 AM »
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  • No, I'm asking.  I don't know.  I remember praying for Martin Luther once and feeling kind of dirty afterwards, and that was before I was Catholic.

    However, I have prayed for Ratzinger and feel all right about it.  He is alive and could possibly repent.
    Readers: Please IGNORE all my postings here. I was a recent convert and fell into errors, even heresy for which hopefully my ignorance excuses. These include rejecting the "rhythm method," rejecting the idea of "implicit faith," and being brieflfy quasi-Jansenist. I also posted occasions of sins and links to occasions of sin, not understanding the concept much at the time, so do not follow my links.

    Offline Alex

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    Where is Pope John Paul II?
    « Reply #43 on: January 26, 2010, 03:42:03 AM »
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  • Well said, Dulcamara!

    Personally, I believe JPII is in Purgatory and will be there for a long time.

    This is what I hope the man's dream meant: God did not want to grant a miracle on behalf of JPII because He does not want him to be proclaimed a saint by the Church (that is why in the dream he told the man he was unable to grant the miracle).

    Offline CM

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    Where is Pope John Paul II?
    « Reply #44 on: January 26, 2010, 03:47:15 AM »
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  • Quote from: Raoul76
    No, I'm asking.  I don't know.  I remember praying for Martin Luther once and feeling kind of dirty afterwards, and that was before I was Catholic.


    If someone died as an enemy of God, who showed no outward signs of conversion - I believe it is unlawful to pray for such a one.

    Quote
    However, I have prayed for Ratzinger and feel all right about it.  He is alive and could possibly repent.


    I have no problem praying for Ratzinger's conversion, and I have said so before, and even professed my belief in the good that would come if he did convert.  The Jews would be on him like white on rice, though! :nunchaku:

    Quote
    With men it is impossible; but not with God: for all things are possible with God


    Alex, I think the dream meant that we are supposed to think JP2 is in Purgatory and that Pius XII, who is ever more being uncovered as a heretic, is in Heaven.

    The dream is purely demonic or a hoax.