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Author Topic: When is the soul created?  (Read 3742 times)

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Offline jarheadusmc

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When is the soul created?
« on: November 11, 2012, 07:39:00 PM »
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  • I've heard many "theory's" of the creation of the soul but lets take a short read of what the CHurch, Fathers, Doctors, Saints and Our Lady has taught in private revelation also:

    In 1974, the Sacred Doctrine of the Faith gave its "Declaration on Procured Abortion" in which it is stated that the Church has not yet defined the moment the soul is created in the womb, yet the Church has declared that at conception is at that moment created a "human being" and to terminate that being is to commit murder of a "human being".  However, the question of the creation of the soul is and has not yet being dogmatically defined.

    It was the opinion of the Old Testament and the Jєωs up until today, of the Fathers, Doctors and Saints, that the human soul (Intellect/Will) is not created until the moment of "Nidation" or at the moment when the mother first feels movement, which is and has been thought and taught to be around forty days for a male and eighty days for a female.

    Philo the Jєωιѕн Philosopher (20BC-52AD) and Josephus the Jєωιѕн Historian (AD37-98), in conformity to rabbinic custom, ascribe to the distinction of the formed and unformed having different worth.  But of more importance are the opinions of the Church Fathers.  Tertulliams - Origen- St. Jerome - St. Augustine - St. Thomas and the Apostolic Constitutions - are all of the opinion that there is a delay in the infusion of the soul with the generation of man until the formation of the human body had reached the ultimate substantial form or completed formation, somethimes called lthe moment of "Quickening or Nidations", or again, the moment the mother  first feels the movement of life inside of her womb.  What is important to note here is that the opinion of the early Church Fathers, Doctors of the Church, and eminent writers, is predicated on their interpretation of Holy Scripture, according to the "Septuagint version of Exodus 21: 22-25, which reads as follows.

    "And if two men strife and smite a woman with child, and her chidl be born imperfectly formed, he shall be forced to pay a penalty: as the woman's husband may lay upon him, he shall pay with a valuation.  But if it be perfectly formed, he shall give life for life, eye for eye, tooth for thooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burning for burning, wound for wound, bruise for bruise."

    Modern versions of the Bible , traslate Exodus 21:22-25 somewhat differently.

    DR. Kduvig Ott. in his "Fundamentals of CAtholic Dogma" p. 100f, gives the Aristotelian-scholastic viewpoint as presented by St. Thomas according to the Septuagint and the old-latin translation.

    The Sacred Congregation of the Fatih , in the "Declaration On Procured Abortion, 1974, #7, p.9, &p. 26" explains that it was the common opinion of the early Church that of the delay of the infusion of the soul and that the "modern" consensus is that the soul is created at conception but that no definative declaration has been declared by the Church as of yet.

    The Early Church Fathers and Doctors were unanimous in declaring for the delay of the infusion of the soul as taken from the meaning presented in Scripture.  Although, the Fathers and Doctors did not agree on the "method" that God used or acted on to delay the infusion, nevertheless they again were in agreement that the soul was not created until the moment of Nidation or Quickening.  It was St. Thomas who eventually came up with the explanation of how God created the human soul - in that firstly, at conception, although the life is human the soul is that of vegetative, as the body grows and develops the soul is transformed into animal and when the body is completely formed, then God in His act of Creation, instantly destroys the animal and creates and infuses the human soul.  

    St. Thomas explains that starting at the moment of conception the single cell starts to divide and begins to grow immediately the heart, from the heart then the blood vessels with the nutrients and necessary elements begin to build the rest of the body until finally the last part of the body to be formed is the "brain" which is the vehicle by which the body presents to the soul the senses preceptions, which the Intellect gathers and then presents it to the will.  So that what St. Thomas is saying is that the human soul is not created until the brain is formed and at that instant God creates and infuses the human soul - God is firstly, indirectly, by pro-creation, with the co-operation of the parents, or Creator and at the moment of the complete formation of the brain, directly is our Father by the direct creation of our human soul.

    Now: This has been the teaching and understanding of the Church, Fathers, Doctors and Saints of the Church for near two thousand years until the age of the enlightenment where this was questioned for the first time.  It is my faith and understanding that the "unanimous" teachings of the Fathers and Doctors is Cathloc Docrtine and unasailable.

    In a catechism class with a certain priest I brought up this subject to which the priest became very angry and said:  Can you imagine if that was taught what the effect would be on the whole abortion debate.  To which I said, it is the duty of the priest and Church to teach the truth no matter where it may lie and this and has been the constant teaching of the Church. The priest then said that it is now the unanimous teaching of the Church and Theologians that the soul is created at conception - which I repeated that on the contrary, the Church in its 1974 Declaration says just the opposite, that it is not yet defined and that presently theologians are now of both opinions, but does not the unanimous, constant and centuries teaching of the Church rule first - or then we should follow the new teachings of Vatican II and the heretics now passing as Theologians in the Church.

    Finally, the priest asked me did I get this from the "City of God" by the Ven. Mary of Agreda; and I said that I did firstly and then discovered after serious inquiry that it was also the teaching of the Church.

    In "The City of God" dictated by Our Lady herself to the Venerable Mary of Agread in the 17th century, Vol. 4, The Coronation, p. 264, 265, #281: Our Lady does explain to Mary of Agreda that "ordinarily" the soul is delayed in its creation until the moment of Nidation thus supporting the teachings of the Fathers and Doctors of the Church.  I might say that Our Lady says at this point in the City of God that the salvation of pagans and idolaters is in certain propect.

    This particular part of the City of God should be read by all as it has within it a treasure of teaching on this subject withing one paragraph.  It is my personal opinion that at some future date that this work, dicated directly by Our Lady herself to the Venerable Mary of Agreda - will someday be elevated to a position in the Church very close to right under the integrity of the Bible and Scripture itself.

    It is a consolation to understand that many of these terrible abortions result not in the death of a baby with a soul, if aborted at least before 10 weeks, but the termination of a human life only, if I may say that at this moment considering the subject here.  It is still murder, one is still terminating the life of a potential human being at this point, but one not having a rational soul.  At this point we might resort to thinking objectively, of how things are and what the Church teaches, no matter our personal "feelings".

    What say you?


    Offline Telesphorus

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    When is the soul created?
    « Reply #1 on: November 11, 2012, 08:28:14 PM »
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  • The old Aristotelian theory of embryology depended on spontaneous generation.

    That theory is incorrect.  The rational soul of man is infused at the moment of conception - the development of the fetus is the unfolding of a form pre-existing in the embryo.  

    The doctrine of the Immaculate Conception is also opposed to the idea of ensoulment into a spontaneously generating embryo around the time of the quickening (when limbs are formed)


    Offline songbird

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    When is the soul created?
    « Reply #2 on: November 11, 2012, 08:58:36 PM »
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  • I was asked in front of an abortion clinic about 20 years ago when life begins.  Life begins at conception.  I say potential life begins with seed and sperm.  In a store, seeds for plants are carefully sealed and sold for a price. Are our seeds  created by God even more valuable?!   To destroy the seeds of man, purposely is against God, sinful. When conception takes place the soul is infused.  There is no room to destroy that which is of God.  

    Offline Pyrrhos

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    When is the soul created?
    « Reply #3 on: November 12, 2012, 02:19:38 AM »
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  • Quote from: Telesphorus
    The old Aristotelian theory of embryology depended on spontaneous generation.

    That theory is incorrect.  The rational soul of man is infused at the moment of conception - the development of the fetus is the unfolding of a form pre-existing in the embryo.  

    The doctrine of the Immaculate Conception is also opposed to the idea of ensoulment into a spontaneously generating embryo around the time of the quickening (when limbs are formed)



    What does "spontaneous generation" mean in regards to the supposed Aristotelian theory? Obviously you must agree, that God creates each soul "spontaneously".

    The doctrine of the Immaculate Conception is not necessarily relevant (nor does it teach contrary to St. Thomas, as one of the most celebrated theologians of modern times, Fr. Norberto del Prado showed in "Divus Thomas et Bulla Dogmatica Ineffabilis Deus").

    It is at least absolutely legitimate for a Catholic to believe in successive animation, together with Jerome, Augustine, Thomas or the Decretum Gratianum, as long as nothing to the contrary is defined.
    If you are a theologian, you truly pray, and if you truly pray, you are a theologian. - Evagrius Ponticus

    Offline Nadir

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    When is the soul created?
    « Reply #4 on: November 12, 2012, 02:49:48 AM »
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  • If ensoulment occurred not at conception but at some time later, that would make it moral to use the morning after pill, as you would not be killing a human being but some piece of tissue. Your theory is untenable.
    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
    Let it be what God has planned, His new Eden where You reign.


    Offline Laval

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    When is the soul created?
    « Reply #5 on: November 12, 2012, 05:01:46 AM »
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  • Even if ensoulment occurred at a later stage (which in fact in does not), it would still not be licit to use the morning after pill. It would not be murder, but still a grave obstruction of the natural law, being a form of contraception.

    Offline Stubborn

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    When is the soul created?
    « Reply #6 on: November 12, 2012, 05:20:35 AM »
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  • Venerable Mary of Agreda's: Mystical City of God - (whose body remains Incorrupt) states that Our Lady received her soul after 7 days and that men get theirs after 40 days and women after 80 days.
    She speaks of the rational soul - not sure if it's the same thing as the immortal soul or not.............


    219. The day on which the first Conception of the
    body of the most holy Mary happened, was a Sunday,
    corresponding to the day of the week on which the an
    gels were created, whose exalted Queen and Lady She
    was to be. For the formation and growth of other
    human bodies, according to the natural order, many
    days are necessary in order to organize and fit them for
    the reception of the rational soul. Thus for a manchild
    are required forty and for females eighty days,
    more or less, according to the natural heat and disposi
    tion of the mothers. In the formation of the virginal
    body of Mary the Almighty accelerated the natural time
    and that, which according to the natural rule required
    eighty days, was accomplished in Her within seven days.
    Within these seven days, by accelerated growth, was
    organized and prepared in the womb of holy Anne that
    wonderful body which was to receive the most holy soul
    of her Daughter and of our Lady and Queen.

    220. On the Saturday next following this first Con
    ception, the Almighty wrought the second Conception
    by creating the soul of his Mother and infusing it into
    the body; and thus entered into the world that pure
    Creature, more holy, perfect and agreeable to His eyes
    than all those He had created, or will create to the end
    of the world, or through the eternities. God maintained
    a mysterious correspondence in the execution of this
    work with that of creating all the rest of the world in
    seven days, as is related in the book of Genesis. Then
    no doubt He rested in truth, according to the figurative
    language of Scripture, since He has now created the
    most perfect Creature of all, giving through it a be
    ginning to the work of the divine Word and to the Re
    demption of the human race. Thus was this day a
    paschal feast for God and also for all creatures.
    221. On account of this Immaculate Conception of
    most holy Mary the holy Spirit has provided that Satur
    day be consecrated to the Virgin in the holy Church,
    since that was the day on which She received the great
    est benefit through the creation of her soul and its
    union with its body without entailing sin or its effects.
    The day of the Immaculate Conception, which the Church
    now celebrates, is not the day of her first conception,
    when the body alone was conceived, but it is the day of
    the second Conception or the infusion of her soul. Body
    and soul, therefore, remained for nine months in the
    womb of holy Anne, which are the days that intervene
    between the Conception to the Nativity of that Queen.
    During the other seven days preceding the vivification
    of the inanimate body, it was disposed and organized by
    the divine power, in order that this work might corre
    spond with the account that Moses gives of the Creation
    of all things, comprising the formation of the whole
    world at its beginning. ........
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    When is the soul created?
    « Reply #7 on: November 12, 2012, 06:02:44 AM »
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  • Quote from: jarheadusmc

    In "The City of God" dictated by Our Lady herself to the Venerable Mary of Agread in the 17th century, Vol. 4, The Coronation, p. 264, 265, #281: Our Lady does explain to Mary of Agreda that "ordinarily" the soul is delayed in its creation until the moment of Nidation thus supporting the teachings of the Fathers and Doctors of the Church.  I might say that Our Lady says at this point in the City of God that the salvation of pagans and idolaters is in certain propect.

    This particular part of the City of God should be read by all as it has within it a treasure of teaching on this subject withing one paragraph.  It is my personal opinion that at some future date that this work, dicated directly by Our Lady herself to the Venerable Mary of Agreda - will someday be elevated to a position in the Church very close to right under the integrity of the Bible and Scripture itself.

    It is a consolation to understand that many of these terrible abortions result not in the death of a baby with a soul, if aborted at least before 10 weeks, but the termination of a human life only, if I may say that at this moment considering the subject here.  It is still murder, one is still terminating the life of a potential human being at this point, but one not having a rational soul.  At this point we might resort to thinking objectively, of how things are and what the Church teaches, no matter our personal "feelings".

    What say you?


    I've read the Mystical City of God and think it is one of the best Catholic works I've ever read - but like you, I do not know what to make of this and look forward to others input.

    For the benefit of those who can't open the PDF on their phone or have dial up..........Vol. 4, The Coronation, p. 264, 265, #281

    281. All this, especially with the children of the Church,
    happens in the following manner. As soon as the demons
    suspect that the conception of a human body is to take
    place, he first notes the intention of the parents, and
    whether they are in the state of grace or not, or whether
    they have committed any excess in the act of generation;
    he studies also the complexion of the humors of their
    bodies, for ordinarily these humors influence also those
    of the body generated. The demons also take note of the
    particular as well as of the general natural causes and
    conditions of nature, which unite in bringing about the
    generation and the organization of the human body.
    From these different concurring elements of generation,
    the demons, with their vast experience, judge as much as
    possible of the complexion or inclinations of the one con
    ceived and they are wont to lay out great plans for future
    action. If they fear good results, they seek to hinder as
    much as possible the last generation or infusion of the
    soul, waylaying the mother with dangers or temptations
    to bring about an abortion before the creation of the
    soul, which is ordinarily delayed forty or eighty days.
    But as soon as they see God create or infuse the soul, the
    wrath of these dragons exerts itself in furious activity
    to prevent the creature from issuing to light, and from
    attaining Baptism, if it is to be born where this Sacra
    ment can easily be administered. For this purpose they
    suggest and tempt the mothers to many disorders and ex
    cesses, whereby the parturition is forced and a premature
    birth or the death of the child in the womb might be
    caused; for among Catholics and heretics, who still ad
    minister Baptism, the demons content themselves with
    depriving children of Baptism and thus withholding
    them in limbo from the vision of God. Among pagans
    and idolaters they are not so solicitous, because among
    them damnation is in certain prospect.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Telesphorus

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    When is the soul created?
    « Reply #8 on: November 12, 2012, 06:54:57 AM »
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  • "spontaneous generation" was regarded as an observed natural process that allowed life to arise in stages from non-living matter.

    Offline Pyrrhos

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    When is the soul created?
    « Reply #9 on: November 12, 2012, 06:58:33 AM »
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  • Quote from: Telesphorus
    "spontaneous generation" was regarded as an observed natural process that allowed life to arise in stages from non-living matter.


    I don't see the connection to the theory of Aristotle and Thomas Aquinas. It is rather the opposite, as some thought the soul to spring forth from the parents directly, as opposed to being infused by God.

    Of course this has no effect on the lawfulness of abortion, as one can clearly see from the Gratian decretal.
    If you are a theologian, you truly pray, and if you truly pray, you are a theologian. - Evagrius Ponticus

    Offline Telesphorus

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    When is the soul created?
    « Reply #10 on: November 12, 2012, 06:58:48 AM »
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  • Quote from: Aristotle
    Now there is one property that animals are found to have in common with plants. For some plants are generated from the seed of plants, whilst other plants are self-generated through the formation of some elemental principle similar to a seed; and of these latter plants some derive their nutriment from the ground, whilst others grow inside other plants, as is mentioned, by the way, in my treatise on Botany. So with animals, some spring from parent animals according to their kind, whilst others grow spontaneously and not from kindred stock; and of these instances of spontaneous generation some come from putrefying earth or vegetable matter, as is the case with a number of insects, while others are spontaneously generated in the inside of animals out of the secretions of their several organs


    Offline Telesphorus

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    When is the soul created?
    « Reply #11 on: November 12, 2012, 07:04:01 AM »
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  • Quote from: Pyrrhos
    I don't see the connection to the theory of Aristotle and Thomas Aquinas.


    The successive development of the vegetative, animal, and rational soul in comes from Aristotle.

    Quote
    It is rather the opposite, as some thought the soul to spring forth from the parents directly, as opposed to being infused by God.


    St. Thomas Aquinas relied on Aristotle's theories on this.  That doesn't mean they agreed completely.

    Quote
    Of course this has no effect on the lawfulness of abortion, as one can clearly see from the Gratian decretal.


    Not the lawfulness, but it does have to do with the gravity.


    Offline Pyrrhos

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    When is the soul created?
    « Reply #12 on: November 12, 2012, 07:15:59 AM »
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  • Quote from: Telesphorus
    Quote from: Aristotle
    Now there is one property that animals are found to have in common with plants. For some plants are generated from the seed of plants, whilst other plants are self-generated through the formation of some elemental principle similar to a seed; and of these latter plants some derive their nutriment from the ground, whilst others grow inside other plants, as is mentioned, by the way, in my treatise on Botany. So with animals, some spring from parent animals according to their kind, whilst others grow spontaneously and not from kindred stock; and of these instances of spontaneous generation some come from putrefying earth or vegetable matter, as is the case with a number of insects, while others are spontaneously generated in the inside of animals out of the secretions of their several organs



    This is the same as the doctrine of St. Thomas Aquinas:

    "Anima sensitiva educitur de potentia materiae in brutis. In nobis vero non, sed est per creationem, cuм eius essentia sit essentia animae rationalis, quae est per creationem" (Quodl, 11, 5, ad 1).


    I do not doubt that both theories have their difficulties. The individuation of twins, for example, speaking of the theory of direct infusion, as well as the fact that about 50% of pregnancies fail, usually unnoticed, in the very first stage.

    If this were not a problem, the Congregation for Studies should have formulated the XV. thomistic thesis differently:

    XV. Contra, per se subsistit anima humana, quae, cuм subiecto sufficienter disposito potest infundi, a Deo creatur, et sua natura incorruptibilis est atque immortalis., relying of course on St. Thomas in his definition of soul generally:

    "Anima est actus primus physici corporis organici potentia vitam habentis." (CG, 2, 61)


    Also, as far as I can see it, the thomist moral theologians do not differentiate the gravity of an abortion according to the state of the fetus, even though the ascribe to the theory of St. Thomas.
    If you are a theologian, you truly pray, and if you truly pray, you are a theologian. - Evagrius Ponticus

    Offline Telesphorus

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    When is the soul created?
    « Reply #13 on: November 12, 2012, 07:23:23 AM »
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  • It's impossible to argue the question of ensoulment doesn't have to do with gravity.

    You should be able to see that.

    It is also obvious that the fact that many pregnancies fail is irrelevant to the question of the creation of the soul.

    Offline Pyrrhos

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    When is the soul created?
    « Reply #14 on: November 12, 2012, 09:33:11 AM »
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  • Quote from: Telesphorus
    It's impossible to argue the question of ensoulment doesn't have to do with gravity.

    You should be able to see that.

    It is also obvious that the fact that many pregnancies fail is irrelevant to the question of the creation of the soul.



    You are correct, I have to retract and apologize. As a matter of fact, the Corpus Iuris Canonici states exactly what you are saying, namely:

    Quote
    C. VIII. Non est homicida qui aborsum procurat ante, quam anima corpori sit infusa.
     Quod uero non formatum puerperium ad homicidium pertinere noluit, profecto nec hominem deputauit, quod tale in utero geritur. Hic de anima questio solet agitari, utrum quicquid formatum non est nec animatum quidem possit intelligi, et ideo non homicidium sit, quia nec exanimatum dici potest, si animam non habebat. Item:
     §. 1. Si illud informe puerperium iam quidem fuerat sed adhuc informiter quodammodo animatum (quoniam magna de anima questio non est) precipitanda indiscussa temeritate sentenciae, ideo lex noluit ad homicidium pertinere, quia nondum dici potest anima uiua in eo corpore, quod sensu caret.


    Decretum Magistri Gratiani 2.32.2.7


    It is very surprising then, though, that the law of the Church was such for several hundred years.


    If you are a theologian, you truly pray, and if you truly pray, you are a theologian. - Evagrius Ponticus