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Author Topic: When and why did the Church lift its blanket condemnation of usury?  (Read 1449 times)

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Offline forlorn

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I read that in the Middle Ages, charging interest was banned entirely at the Church's behest. However these days the Church only condemns excessive rates of interest, and even charges interest itself. This change occurred before Vatican 2, so we can all agree it was done under a valid Pope and wasn't the work of freemason or Jєωιѕн infiltration, and I do not mean at all to imply it was done for nefarious reasons. But why was it done? I'm interested in the reasoning behind it. 


Offline klasG4e

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Re: When and why did the Church lift its blanket condemnation of usury?
« Reply #1 on: April 13, 2018, 05:03:14 PM »
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  • I read that in the Middle Ages, charging interest was banned entirely at the Church's behest. However these days the Church only condemns excessive rates of interest, and even charges interest itself. This change occurred before Vatican 2, so we can all agree it was done under a valid Pope and wasn't the work of freemason or Jєωιѕн infiltration, and I do not mean at all to imply it was done for nefarious reasons. But why was it done? I'm interested in the reasoning behind it.
    "so we can all agree it ........ wasn't the work of freemason or Jєωιѕн infiltration"  A good sense of humor is always appreciated.


    Offline PG

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    Re: When and why did the Church lift its blanket condemnation of usury?
    « Reply #2 on: April 13, 2018, 05:39:17 PM »
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  • We can all agree it was done under valid popes, but I do not agree it was not the work of freemason or Jєωιѕн infiltration.  Freemason and Jєωιѕн infiltrators can become pope, and I believe in the past they probably have been.  And, if it was not done for nefarious or impious reasons, it was certainly done out of ignorance, because since the very beginning when interest on loans(montes peitatis) took root in the church, it has been hotly debated, ugly, and riddled with abuse.   And, it has not waned one bit.  It has only been distracted from by other issues.    

    Next, don't set yourself on understanding why it was done.  You will never receive that answer.  Simply study the matter and the facts, and base your opinions off of that.  Because, there is enough to discuss concerning usury without having to discuss why such and such a pope did this, and was this pope a valid pope based off of your findings.  Or perhaps do that, and you will come to find that the problems in the church go back long before vatican 2, and that sedevacantism indeed is not the answer.  Because, there has been constant papal corruption and negligence(one or both) for at least 700 years.  Yet, we still have a papacy, and in part due to this, I am convinced francis is the pope.  

    Here are the relevant denzinger numbers concerning usury, you can look them up online easily. - 365, 394, 403, 448, 479, 716, 739, 1081, 1142, 1190, 1475, 1609, 1543.

    It is my opinion that popes have proceeded recklessly and doubtfully into the waters of usury.  And, like with dantes inferno, popes who have inherited the problem have either been reluctant to explore deep enough for their solution or are too overwhelmed or too cowardly to do anything about it, and that is why it has not been resolved, by a pope at least.

    There are three solutions I recall from memory when I researched all of this.  One, the church must define what profit is when it comes to what is regarded as lawful interest.  This goes all the way back to the montes peitatis.  The guarantee was that they would not be making profit on their interest, only providing for the overhead costs(building/personel/holding of loaned items), which was the loophole to start the banks in the first place.  However, the montes peitatis were always used to bail out the in-debt societies in which they subsided due to the usury practiced by the princes and or the populace that "tolerated" Jєωs living in and banking in their land.  So, the montes banks were turning an illicit profit imo.  And, if we all understand interest on loans to be harmful, it is hard to consider the montes banks as not being a damaging factor in theory to the society, but certainly in practice from what history tells us.  

    The next solution would be that without all of the particulars(profit) defined, it is not licit to engage in any of the banking activity that the church has tried to convince itself of as lawful.  This would be argued(more commonly) from the moral rigorist standpoint when it comes to the moral probability debate(thats right, another hot debate).  

    Lastly, outside of a defined montes peitaties scenario, the interest on loans practiced because of side contracts and other so called lawful elements of the contract is simply not at all licit.  And, that is because there is enough condemnation of usury prior to suggest it.  and, it is just a foreshadowing of the denial exhibited and in V2 and practiced by post V2 valid popes although concerning different issues.  Different animal, same beast.  Being that I am a sedeplenist, all these three scenarios are valid discussions for me.    

    The 5% that renaissance Jєωιѕн bankers said they would never contract interest without, has now turned into a 35% by law approval the church considers lawful and their barometer(keeps rising with the ages).  Canon laws uses the "by law approval" as its barometer concerning interest.  And, just wait until you read denzinger 1609-10 about those who "appear to be in good faith".  The best the pope has to offer as a solution is - "they are not to be disturbed".




    "A secure mind is like a continual feast" - Proverbs xv: 15

    Offline forlorn

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    Re: When and why did the Church lift its blanket condemnation of usury?
    « Reply #3 on: April 13, 2018, 05:45:20 PM »
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  • We can all agree it was done under valid popes, but I do not agree it was not the work of freemason or Jєωιѕн infiltration.  Freemason and Jєωιѕн infiltrators can become pope, and I believe in the past they probably have been.  And, if it was not done for nefarious or impious reasons, it was certainly done out of ignorance, because since the very beginning when interest on loans(montes peitatis) took root in the church, it has been hotly debated, ugly, and riddled with abuse.   And, it has not waned one bit.  It has only been distracted from by other issues.    

    Next, don't set yourself on understanding why it was done.  You will never receive that answer.  Simply study the matter and the facts, and base your opinions off of that.  Because, there is enough to discuss concerning usury without having to discuss why such and such a pope did this, and was this pope a valid pope based off of your findings.  Or perhaps do that, and you will come to find that the problems in the church go back long before vatican 2, and that sedevacantism indeed is not the answer.  Because, there has been constant papal corruption and negligence(one or both) for at least 700 years.  Yet, we still have a papacy, and in part due to this, I am convinced francis is the pope.  

    Here are the relevant denzinger numbers concerning usury, you can look them up online easily. - 365, 394, 403, 448, 479, 716, 739, 1081, 1142, 1190, 1475, 1609, 1543.

    It is my opinion that popes have proceeded recklessly and doubtfully into the waters of usury.  And, like with dantes inferno, popes who have inherited the problem have either been reluctant to explore deep enough for their solution or are too overwhelmed or too cowardly to do anything about it, and that is why it has not been resolved, by a pope at least.

    There are three solutions I recall from memory when I researched all of this.  One, the church must define what profit is when it comes to what is regarded as lawful interest.  This goes all the way back to the montes peitatis.  The guarantee was that they would not be making profit on their interest, only providing for the overhead costs(building/personel/holding of loaned items), which was the loophole to start the banks in the first place.  However, the montes peitatis were always used to bail out the in-debt societies in which they subsided due to the usury practiced by the princes and or the populace that "tolerated" Jєωs living in and banking in their land.  So, the montes banks were turning an illicit profit imo.  And, if we all understand interest on loans to be harmful, it is hard to consider the montes banks as not being a damaging factor in theory to the society, but certainly in practice from what history tells us.  

    The next solution would be that without all of the particulars(profit) defined, it is not licit to engage in any of the banking activity that the church has tried to convince itself of as lawful.  This would be argued(more commonly) from the moral rigorist standpoint when it comes to the moral probability debate(thats right, another hot debate).  

    Lastly, outside of a defined montes peitaties scenario, the interest on loans practiced because of side contracts and other so called lawful elements of the contract is simply not at all licit.  And, that is because there is enough condemnation of usury prior to suggest it.  and, it is just a foreshadowing of the denial exhibited and in V2 and practiced by post V2 valid popes although concerning different issues.  Different animal, same beast.  Being that I am a sedeplenist, all these three scenarios are valid discussions for me.    

    The 5% that renaissance Jєωιѕн bankers said they would never contract interest without, has now turned into a 35% by law approval the church considers lawful and their barometer(keeps rising with the ages).  Canon laws uses the "by law approval" as its barometer concerning interest.  And, just wait until you read denzinger 1609-10 about those who "appear to be in good faith".  The best the pope has to offer as a solution is - "they are not to be disturbed".
    Fantastic post. I'll be sure to follow up on the reading you suggested. Thank you. 

    Offline Marcelino

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    Re: When and why did the Church lift its blanket condemnation of usury?
    « Reply #4 on: April 13, 2018, 06:45:35 PM »
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  • According to Dr. E. Michael Jones, The Church still condemns Usury as Gravely Wrong.  So, if engaged in with Full Knowledge and Full Control it should constitute a Mortal Sin.  However, Jones argues, we are not in full control, because our Modern Economy is based on Usury.  Usury being defined as charging ANY interest on a loan.  Jones bases his opinion in large part on the Papal Encyclical, Vix Pervenit, 1745, Pope Bendedict XIV.  Jones also define Capitalism as "state sponsored usury," that is to say, the state enforces Usurious contracts, rather than punishing the Usurers.  Hence, he concludes, we are ruled by criminals.  

    http://www.papalencyclicals.net/ben14/b14vixpe.htm

    Jones on Usury




    Offline PG

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    Re: When and why did the Church lift its blanket condemnation of usury?
    « Reply #5 on: April 25, 2018, 01:46:27 PM »
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  • I was just thinking about this today.  The same action behind money laundering appears to be the same action behind these so called licit side contracts for church approved usury.  In laundering, if you have dirty money, you move it around through other peoples hands directly or indirection(likely indirectly) one way or another so that their hands get dirty, and your money gets clean from the handling.  Those with initially clean hands are likely unsuspecting people.  The same seems to be occurring with these side contracts.  If you have enough side contracts(movement of the interest), or enough hands in the dirty pot, the pot becomes less dirty.  Meaning, the more peoples hands you get dirty by all these contracts, the cleaner the pot becomes.  In this case, the pot is the interest on a loan which by itself is condemned by the church.  The surrounding side contracts are like the whirlwind similar to the motion of a clothing laundry mat, which is where the word money laundering comes from.  The NY mob moved their dirty money through their laundry mat cash only(untraceable) side business.  

    I was reading ezekiel ch 18 yesterday, and there is this amazing section where for about three repeated paragraphs, God mentions the condemning of usury.  The sentence goes like this.  "Hath not lent upon usury, nor taken any increase".  What is significant is that God decided that this manipulation of transaction required these two separate descriptions.  Why do you think this is?  Do you think it is because the effect the loan has on he one receiving, meaning it sort of turns them into a shark like the loan shark?  Meaning, the one who has taken the loan will now have more of an incentive to go out and in turn rip off his neighbor in order just to repay the loan.  And, obviously the final taking of this loan(the action increase) is bad because it gives more ammunition to the person who initiated this process in the first place.  Do you follow?  Or, do you think the mentioning "nor taken any increase" is referring to the money laundering phenomenon that has even tricked the hierarchy of the church?  Because, outside of this passage in Ezekiel, where is the condemnation of the laundering method in scripture? 

    I actually like my first understanding of that passage of ezekiel, because I do not agree with thomas aquinas' approval of participating in a usurious loan so long as you are not the one loaning, and if the loan is for a so called "good cause".  And, this passage now gives me an argument against it.   
    "A secure mind is like a continual feast" - Proverbs xv: 15

    Offline Marcelino

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    Re: When and why did the Church lift its blanket condemnation of usury?
    « Reply #6 on: April 25, 2018, 02:54:17 PM »
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  • I was just thinking about this today.  The same action behind money laundering appears to be the same action behind these so called licit side contracts for church approved usury.  In laundering, if you have dirty money, you move it around through other peoples hands directly or indirection(likely indirectly) one way or another so that their hands get dirty, and your money gets clean from the handling.  Those with initially clean hands are likely unsuspecting people.  The same seems to be occurring with these side contracts.  If you have enough side contracts(movement of the interest), or enough hands in the dirty pot, the pot becomes less dirty.  Meaning, the more peoples hands you get dirty by all these contracts, the cleaner the pot becomes.  In this case, the pot is the interest on a loan which by itself is condemned by the church.  The surrounding side contracts are like the whirlwind similar to the motion of a clothing laundry mat, which is where the word money laundering comes from.  The NY mob moved their dirty money through their laundry mat cash only(untraceable) side business.  

    I was reading ezekiel ch 18 yesterday, and there is this amazing section where for about three repeated paragraphs, God mentions the condemning of usury.  The sentence goes like this.  "Hath not lent upon usury, nor taken any increase".  What is significant is that God decided that this manipulation of transaction required these two separate descriptions.  Why do you think this is?  Do you think it is because the effect the loan has on he one receiving, meaning it sort of turns them into a shark like the loan shark?  Meaning, the one who has taken the loan will now have more of an incentive to go out and in turn rip off his neighbor in order just to repay the loan.  And, obviously the final taking of this loan(the action increase) is bad because it gives more ammunition to the person who initiated this process in the first place.  Do you follow?  Or, do you think the mentioning "nor taken any increase" is referring to the money laundering phenomenon that has even tricked the hierarchy of the church?  Because, outside of this passage in Ezekiel, where is the condemnation of the laundering method in scripture?

    I actually like my first understanding of that passage of ezekiel, because I do not agree with thomas aquinas' approval of participating in a usurious loan so long as you are not the one loaning, and if the loan is for a so called "good cause".  And, this passage now gives me an argument against it.  
    I see the same concept from the passage quoted in Jones talking about the way to make a legitimate loan and to correctly repay it:  the lender should be made "whole," by the borrower.  In other words, there is no "increase" allowed.  However, if I borrow your shovel to dig a hole and then try to return it to you with a broken handle, I've done wrong and should fix your handle or get you another one.  Even then it isn't really enough, unless I install the new handle on the shovel for you.  Thus, you are made "whole."  

    Offline forlorn

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    Re: When and why did the Church lift its blanket condemnation of usury?
    « Reply #7 on: April 25, 2018, 03:02:18 PM »
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  • I see the same concept from the passage quoted in Jones talking about the way to make a legitimate loan and to correctly repay it:  the lender should be made "whole," by the borrower.  In other words, there is no "increase" allowed.  However, if I borrow your shovel to dig a hole and then try to return it to you with a broken handle, I've done wrong and should fix your handle or get you another one.  Even then it isn't really enough, unless I install the new handle on the shovel for you.  Thus, you are made "whole."  
    This raises an interesting point. If I return your shovel damaged, the issue there is I have returned it to you with less value than when you gave it to me. However, if I pay back a 0 interest loan over say 10 years, when you get the money back it is worth significantly less than when you lent it to me due to interest. How then should a moneylender be made whole without some sort of interest? Should the repayments scale with inflation? Or should we just ignore inflation and the loss of value altogether?


    Offline Geremia

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    Re: When and why did the Church lift its blanket condemnation of usury?
    « Reply #8 on: April 25, 2018, 03:11:00 PM »
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  • This is a loaded question. The Church has not rescinded its teaching on usury.
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    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: When and why did the Church lift its blanket condemnation of usury?
    « Reply #9 on: April 25, 2018, 03:17:15 PM »
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  • Quote
    How then should a moneylender be made whole without some sort of interest? 
    Great point!  The thing to remember is that when comparing modern economics with economics pre 1850s, you are comparing apples to oranges.  Because starting in 1850s, the globalists started central banking bit-by-bit across the globe.  Central banking is, by definition, central manipulation of interest and monetary policy, which always leads to inflation.  Which means, over time, inflation (ie the increase in the money supply by central bankers) leads to price increases and a gradual loss of purchasing power of the money.  

    In the Middle Ages, the money supply was much more stable, based on precious metals, which makes it very difficult to manipulate and increase.  Thus, $20 in year 1 would be worth the same as $20 in year 30, so interest/usury was not needed to “make the lender whole”.  

    Back in the day, money kept its value, families kept their wealth, the citizens were not robbed due to compound interest, and the middle class was very wealthy.  Usury, therefore, was unnecessary and considered sinful since the catholic view is that we are given $ by God to use it for His purposes, one of which is to help our neighbor.  And one cannot be charitable if you charge a fee for charity. 

    Nowadays, however, with fiat currencies and the resulting inflation by jooish central banks, I don’t think interest is sinful for LONG TERM loans, since the time value of money gradually decreases beyond our control.  

    Offline forlorn

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    Re: When and why did the Church lift its blanket condemnation of usury?
    « Reply #10 on: April 25, 2018, 03:37:47 PM »
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  • This is a loaded question. The Church has not rescinded its teaching on usury.
    It now refers to usury as "excessive interest" and charges interest on its own loans. 


    Offline Marcelino

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    Re: When and why did the Church lift its blanket condemnation of usury?
    « Reply #11 on: April 25, 2018, 03:49:44 PM »
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  • Yeah, so in response to those 3 posts:  Of course, The Federal Reserve Bank perverts this concept, in order to justify Usury in our economy, by maintaining Inflation, through deliberate over-expansion of The Money Supply.  This is done deliberately, with forethought and malice, in order to "FORCE" people to accept Compound Interest Charges (way beyond inflation btw, but once you open the door...).  Furthermore, Jones argues, this is done to de-incentivize saving, because your savings will lose value over time, unless you "invest" it.  Of course, stocks aren't true investments, but rather wagers on how a company will perform and Bonds are loans charging interest.  Savings accounts won't keep pace with Inflation and Stocks and Bonds involve risk (as in you can lose every penny).  So, there isn't a whole lot of incentive to save, but rather an incentive to borrow money at interest and just make the payments "forever," which of course, is the design The Federal Reserve Bank has in mind for us.  


    Offline Marcelino

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    Re: When and why did the Church lift its blanket condemnation of usury?
    « Reply #12 on: April 25, 2018, 03:51:04 PM »
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  • It now refers to usury as "excessive interest" and charges interest on its own loans.
    According to Jones the "official" teaching is still that charging any interest on a loan = usury.  However, in "practice" I think you are right.  

    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: When and why did the Church lift its blanket condemnation of usury?
    « Reply #13 on: April 25, 2018, 04:16:32 PM »
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  • Quote
    Yeah, so in response to those 3 posts:  Of course, The Federal Reserve Bank perverts this concept, in order to justify Usury in our economy, by maintaining Inflation, through deliberate over-expansion of The Money Supply.  This is done deliberately, with forethought and malice, in order to "FORCE" people to accept Compound Interest Charges (way beyond inflation btw, but once you open the door...).  Furthermore, Jones argues, this is done to de-incentivize saving, because your savings will lose value over time, unless you "invest" it.  Of course, stocks aren't true investments, but rather wagers on how a company will perform and Bonds are loans charging interest.  Savings accounts won't keep pace with Inflation and Stocks and Bonds involve risk (as in you can lose every penny).  So, there isn't a whole lot of incentive to save, but rather an incentive to borrow money at interest and just make the payments "forever," which of course, is the design The Federal Reserve Bank has in mind for us.  
    GREAT summary!
    So, even if you were to charge your friend "excessive" interest of 5% on a 5 yr loan, if you used the non-compound interest rate, it would be QUITE charitable (and less expensive) than a bank's 2% compound interest.  I'm not condoning charging interest to people, just pointing out the BURDEN of COMPOUND interest.  How few people understand this monetary devilry!

    Offline PG

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    Re: When and why did the Church lift its blanket condemnation of usury?
    « Reply #14 on: April 25, 2018, 04:39:22 PM »
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  • This raises an interesting point. If I return your shovel damaged, the issue there is I have returned it to you with less value than when you gave it to me. However, if I pay back a 0 interest loan over say 10 years, when you get the money back it is worth significantly less than when you lent it to me due to interest. How then should a moneylender be made whole without some sort of interest? Should the repayments scale with inflation? Or should we just ignore inflation and the loss of value altogether?
    I recall from fr. faheys book on usury something that sounds very relevant to inflation/deflation of loan interest.  The Jєωιѕн bankers would in essence loan(big loans by this time, I think it was to princes and cities), then they would influence the currency value by moving their gold around to a different location strategic to that loans currency which would alter the value of that currency in their favor for that loan by way of inflation/deflation, and then they would call in that loan at that most inopportune time, multiplying their profit in the process.  
    So, I don't think that is the solution.  
    I think this is why Christ said you cannot serve God and mammon.  We are expecting from money an attribute that only God has.  God is unchangeable.  God is what can unite mankind.   Money can never do this.  
    "A secure mind is like a continual feast" - Proverbs xv: 15