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Author Topic: What were the rules for mass times before Pius XII?  (Read 2180 times)

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Online Giovanni Berto

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What were the rules for mass times before Pius XII?
« on: November 06, 2019, 10:05:59 AM »
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  • I can't find much information on this.
    I know that the Eucharist fast started at midnight and that mass couldn't start after 1 PM. But what about the earliest time a mass could be said?
    What year did this change occur?
    I know that Pope Pius XII made quite a few changes with the half modernist 1955 Holy Week, but I think I read somewhere that the mass times were changed before 1955.


    Offline songbird

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    Re: What were the rules for mass times before Pius XII?
    « Reply #1 on: November 06, 2019, 11:36:31 AM »
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  • I know for what I went through as a young person, our first Mass on Sunday was 6am or 6:30am.  So, that would be a 6 hour fast.  I try to follow this.  It is with the understanding that Christ was the first to be consumed before water or food.  If you need medication you are allowed to do so and receive Christ.  

    To me, this is apart of the belief that Christ is truly present.  This is disappearing and that is how the enemy works.  No communion rail, no kneeling, tabernacle no longer, no more genuflecting, followed by how we dress, and no more veils and you could go on.  Very Demonic.


    Offline CatholicInAmerica

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    Re: What were the rules for mass times before Pius XII?
    « Reply #2 on: November 06, 2019, 11:57:34 AM »
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  • I can't find much information on this.
    I know that the Eucharist fast started at midnight and that mass couldn't start after 1 PM. But what about the earliest time a mass could be said?
    What year did this change occur?
    I know that Pope Pius XII made quite a few changes with the half modernist 1955 Holy Week, but I think I read somewhere that the mass times were changed before 1955.
    Don’t blame the holy week rites on Pius XII. He only had direct correlation to the changing of the dates of certain Holy Week masses, you have to remember he was bedridden for the last years of his life. 
    Pope St. Pius X pray for us

    Offline Mark 79

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    Re: What were the rules for mass times before Pius XII?
    « Reply #3 on: November 06, 2019, 12:13:21 PM »
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  • There were 12:15PM Masses.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: What were the rules for mass times before Pius XII?
    « Reply #4 on: November 06, 2019, 01:19:29 PM »
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  • But what about the earliest time a mass could be said?


    Presumably anytime after midnight.  So, for Christmas Mass, +Williamson once told me that as long as the Offertory began after Midnight, it counted as a Mass on Christmas Day.


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: What were the rules for mass times before Pius XII?
    « Reply #5 on: November 06, 2019, 02:15:11 PM »
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  • Off topic, but...If the Offertory has to be after midnight for the mass to be a Christmas mass, then this is another proof that the consecration is not the ONLY factor to consider, when determining the completeness/legality/morality of a mass.  
    .
    Not necessarily responding to you, Ladislaus, just a general comment related to last weeks’ thread. 

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: What were the rules for mass times before Pius XII?
    « Reply #6 on: November 06, 2019, 04:40:22 PM »
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  • Off topic, but...If the Offertory has to be after midnight for the mass to be a Christmas mass, then this is another proof that the consecration is not the ONLY factor to consider, when determining the completeness/legality/morality of a mass.  
    .
    Not necessarily responding to you, Ladislaus, just a general comment related to last weeks’ thread.

    I'm not sure if you can infer this from that guideline.  If you recall, that was also where traditionally the "Mass of the Faithful" began.  When moral theologians were dealing with when you had be be present in order to (minimally) fulfill your obligation, they used the Offertory, since it's the Mass of the Faithful.  Now, the Novus Ordo switched it to the Gospel.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: What were the rules for mass times before Pius XII?
    « Reply #7 on: November 06, 2019, 06:08:55 PM »
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  • The novus ordo switched it to the Gospel because they so gutted the Offertory that it's only 5 minutes long.   :laugh2:  Blink and you'll miss it.
    .
    The point is that if a Traditional Catholic misses the Offertory, they miss mass; they do not fulfill their sunday obligation.  Ergo, mass is much more than just the consecration.  Mass does not exist, or is incomplete, or is invalid, if the Offertory is deficient, even if the consecration is valid.  


    Offline Motorede

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    Re: What were the rules for mass times before Pius XII?
    « Reply #8 on: November 06, 2019, 06:57:53 PM »
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  • I can't find much information on this.
    I know that the Eucharist fast started at midnight and that mass couldn't start after 1 PM. But what about the earliest time a mass could be said?
    What year did this change occur?
    I know that Pope Pius XII made quite a few changes with the half modernist 1955 Holy Week, but I think I read somewhere that the mass times were changed before 1955.
    I have been under the impression for a long time, and still am, that the earliest time Holy Mass can begin corresponds with the break of dawn or close to that moment of the rising of the sun. And, because the birth of Christ as well as His Holy Resurrection happened at midnight, Holy Mass is allowed at that time, too, (maybe almost required?) for liturgy and creation to blend beautifully.  The priest facing east while offering the Holy Sacrifice is another example of the Church's blending liturgy with the life of Christ.  

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: What were the rules for mass times before Pius XII?
    « Reply #9 on: November 06, 2019, 07:32:17 PM »
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  • The novus ordo switched it to the Gospel because they so gutted the Offertory that it's only 5 minutes long.   :laugh2:  Blink and you'll miss it.

    That and to diminish the significance of the Sacrifice ... juxtaposing it as having almost equal importance with the "Liturgy of the Word" as they call it.  According to the Novus Ordo mindset, both the Word (readings) and the Eucharist are simply two different ways in which the Lord becomes "present" among the congregation.  You can see how this can quickly lead to a mentality of considering the Eucharistic presence to be symbolic.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: What were the rules for mass times before Pius XII?
    « Reply #10 on: November 06, 2019, 07:40:43 PM »
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  • I have been under the impression for a long time, and still am, that the earliest time Holy Mass can begin corresponds with the break of dawn or close to that moment of the rising of the sun. And, because the birth of Christ as well as His Holy Resurrection happened at midnight, Holy Mass is allowed at that time, too, (maybe almost required?) for liturgy and creation to blend beautifully.  The priest facing east while offering the Holy Sacrifice is another example of the Church's blending liturgy with the life of Christ.  

    Well, yes, there was the ancient symbolism of having the Mass, perhaps even the Consecration, coincide with the rising of the sun ... but the Church has long reckoned the day to begin at midnight and so Mass for that day can be celebrated any time after that.  It was common before Vatican II for parishes to offer a 5:00 AM Daily Mass, well before sunrise during most of the year, to accommodate the faithful who have to get to work early.  Now, there is an ancient custom of the following day beginning after sunset of the previous day ... which is why the Vespers "anticipate" the following day's feast (or do they?).  That's the argument for the Saturday Vigil practice in the Novus Ordo.  By itself, it could be OK, since when the one day ends and the other begins could be somewhat arbitrary and the most ancient tradition is in fact that it begins after sunset.  But the Novus Ordo is inconsistent by having a 4:00 PM Saturday Vigil Mass followed by a 5:00 PM Sunday afternoon Mass ... often at the same parish.  Either the Lord's day begins at 4PM or it does not.  If it does, then 5:00 PM Sunday Mass is too late to count for Sunday.

    By the way, I very much agree with Pius XII changing the time of both the Holy Thursday Mass and the Easter Vigil.  There's something very wrong with having the Easter Vigil on Saturday morning.  Our Lord rose on the Third Day, not on the Second.  And Our Lord did offer the Holy Thursday Mass in the evening.


    Offline poche

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    Re: What were the rules for mass times before Pius XII?
    « Reply #11 on: November 07, 2019, 12:44:32 AM »
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  • St John the Baptist in New Orleans used to have a 2:30 mass. It was known as the taxi driver's mass or also the last chance mass.

    Offline cath4ever

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    Re: What were the rules for mass times before Pius XII?
    « Reply #12 on: November 07, 2019, 07:21:34 AM »
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  • It seems like I once read in a pre-Vatican II moral theology textbook that Mass could begin anywhere between 1 hour before sunrise and 1 hour after noon, but I'm going off of memory on that.

    Offline cath4ever

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    Re: What were the rules for mass times before Pius XII?
    « Reply #13 on: November 07, 2019, 07:29:20 AM »
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  • The novus ordo switched it to the Gospel because they so gutted the Offertory that it's only 5 minutes long.   :laugh2:  Blink and you'll miss it.
    .
    The point is that if a Traditional Catholic misses the Offertory, they miss mass; they do not fulfill their sunday obligation.  Ergo, mass is much more than just the consecration.  Mass does not exist, or is incomplete, or is invalid, if the Offertory is deficient, even if the consecration is valid.  
    You have to distinguish between a couple different things here:
    1) What makes the Mass a sacrificial act
    2) What makes transubstantiation happen
    As regards #1, I think the Offertory, Consecration, and Priest's Communion are the parts necessary to make the Mass a sacrificial act (and maybe the action at the Hanc Igitur where the Priest puts his hands over the bread and wine). That is why those are the parts you have to be at to fulfill your Sunday Obligation. If you arrive after the Offertory but before the Consecration, you must attend another Mass up through the Offertory if another Mass is available. Similarly if you arrive after the Consecration but before the Priest's Communion.

    Regarding #2, to make transubstantiation happen all the priest needs to do is say the words of Consecration over the bread and wine while having the intention to consecrate them.

    Offline cassini

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    Re: What were the rules for mass times before Pius XII?
    « Reply #14 on: November 07, 2019, 07:47:32 AM »
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  • I don't know what the rules were apart from midnigt fast but in our parish in St Dublin, Ireland, in the 1940s and 1950s there was 7,8,9,10,11 and 12 Mass. Most inrteresting was that Holy Communion was not served at 11 or 12 Mass. I recall my dad liked a pint on Saturday night and nearly always went to 12 Mass. Indeed a lot of Irishmen liked a pint or two on Saturday night so that could explain why no Communion was given on those late Masses. The most popular Mass was the 8-o-clock one. In those days I served as an altarboy so got to know these things.

    During the 1950s, Pope Pius XII requested that Fr Bea, a Jesuit of course, revise the translation of the Psalter, the words of Psalm 26 that contained “I will wash my hands among the innocent” the one used for centuries in the part of the Offertory Rite of the Mass where the priest washes his hands. The last translation of this Psalm was done at the Council of Trent, yet Pope Pius XII wanted an updated translation. Fr Bea, made a cardinal by Pope John XXIII in 1959, was a liberal who also championed the modernist religious liberty at Vatican II against the religious tolerance of the traditionalist Cardinal Ottaviani causing division and rupture at the Council.

    https://www.jstor.org/stable/43719062?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents