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Author Topic: What was the Church's stance on people who followed antipopes in the past?  (Read 1291 times)

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Offline forlorn

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For example during the Great Western Schism. Obviously the antipopes and the people who installed them were schismatic, but did the Church consider the lesser clergy and laypeople in their countries to be schismatic too? Would a random parish priest in France or his parishioners have been damned for schism if they died during the Schism?


Offline Jaynek

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  • St. Vincent Ferrer was a follower of an anti-pope and this was not a bar to his canonization.  This shows that the Church does not consider people automatically condemned to hell for following an antipope.


    Offline forlorn

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  • St. Vincent Ferrer was a follower of an anti-pope and this was not a bar to his canonization.  This shows that the Church does not consider people automatically condemned to hell for following an antipope.
    He abandoned the anti-pope in the end however. 

    Offline Matthew

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  • But there was no guarantee that no one would die before the Great Schism was sorted out. What of those poor people who died before it was sorted out?

    It should be common sense that it's not incuмbent upon laymen to figure out the Pope question personally, and act on it CORRECTLY because if they get it wrong, they'll be damned.

    That would be ridiculous. Most of the information is either above most laymen (requiring knowledge of theology, Canon Law, etc.), or inaccessible (what cօռspιʀαcιҽs have happened under cloak of darkness, etc.)

    God is just. To suggest otherwise would be blasphemy.

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    Offline forlorn

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  • But there was no guarantee that no one would die before the Great Schism was sorted out. What of those poor people who died before it was sorted out?

    It should be common sense that it's not incuмbent upon laymen to figure out the Pope question personally, and act on it CORRECTLY because if they get it wrong, they'll be damned.

    That would be ridiculous. Most of the information is either above most laymen (requiring knowledge of theology, Canon Law, etc.), or inaccessible (what cօռspιʀαcιҽs have happened under cloak of darkness, etc.)

    God is just. To suggest otherwise would be blasphemy.
    Indeed, this was what I was hoping would be the answer. But I was wondering is there any docuмent, statement, etc. giving any sort of official Church view on this matter.


    Offline Jaynek

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  • Indeed, this was what I was hoping would be the answer. But I was wondering is there any docuмent, statement, etc. giving any sort of official Church view on this matter.
    There might not be anything specifically about antipopes, but there is official teaching on the subject of invincible ignorance.  Following Matthew's reasoning above, it is clear that this applies.

    Offline Jaynek

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  • There might not be anything specifically about antipopes, but there is official teaching on the subject of invincible ignorance.  Following Matthew's reasoning above, it is clear that this applies.
    From the Wikipedia article on "invincible ignorance" 

    Quote
    The term "invincible ignorance" has its roots in Catholic theology, where — as the opposite of the term vincible ignorance — invincible ignorance - ignorance that is not the fault of the ignorant person. From the Latin meaning unable to be overcome.. The first Pope to use the term officially seems to have been Pope Pius IX in the allocutionSingulari Quadam (9 December 1854) and the encyclicals Singulari Quidem (17 March 1856) and Quanto Conficiamur Moerore (10 August 1863). The term, however, is far older than that. Aquinas, for instance, uses it in his Summa Theologica (written 1265–1274),[1] and discussion of the concept can be found as far back as Origen (3rd century).

    Offline TKGS

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  • Of course, prior to 1958, all of the anti-popes in the past professed the Catholic Faith.  So the current situation really isn't the same today as it was in the past.


    Offline Centroamerica

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  • From this brief summary it will be readily concluded that this schism did not at all resemble that of the East, that it was something unique, and that it has remained so in history. It was not a schism properly so called, being in reality a deplorable misunderstanding concerning a question of fact, an historical complication which lasted forty years. In the West there was no revolt against papal authority in general, no scorn of the sovereign power of which St. Peter was the representative. Faith in the necessary unity never wavered a particle; no one wished voluntarily to separate from the head of the Church.

    http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13539a.htm
    We conclude logically that religion can give an efficacious and truly realistic answer to the great modern problems only if it is a religion that is profoundly lived, not simply a superficial and cheap religion made up of some vocal prayers and some ceremonies...

    Offline poche

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  • Excommunication and interdiction.

    Offline Theosist

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  • Material schism is not eo ipso a sin.

    That’s why I’d rather be a Sedevacantist any day of the week than someone who nominally acknowledges the Pope but practically rejects his papacy.


    Offline Mr G

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  • St. Vincent Ferrer was a follower of an anti-pope and this was not a bar to his canonization.  This shows that the Church does not consider people automatically condemned to hell for following an antipope.
    That's correct. The Dominicans gave a conference early this month, and Father Marie Laurence mentioned that Our Lord was communicating with St. Vincent and answering his prayers during the time in which St. Vincent was believing the anti-pope was the true pope, yet Our Lord did not mention to St. Vincent that he was following an anti-pope. 

    Offline Jaynek

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  • That's correct. The Dominicans gave a conference early this month, and Father Marie Laurence mentioned that Our Lord was communicating with St. Vincent and answering his prayers during the time in which St. Vincent was believing the anti-pope was the true pope, yet Our Lord did not mention to St. Vincent that he was following an anti-pope.
    Thanks for this.  It definitely gives me food for thought.

    Offline Ladislaus

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  • That's correct. The Dominicans gave a conference early this month, and Father Marie Laurence mentioned that Our Lord was communicating with St. Vincent and answering his prayers during the time in which St. Vincent was believing the anti-pope was the true pope, yet Our Lord did not mention to St. Vincent that he was following an anti-pope.

    This is interesting to note also with regard to those people who argue that Padre Pio did not reject Paul VI.  It's not always the case that God would reveal something.  Had Padre Pio come out as a sedevacantist, the entire crisis would have been over immediately, and this would have put an end to the chastisement that God willed to impose on the world.  In many cases, even the saints who receive regular communication from God are just going by their own natural lights.

    Offline RomanTheo

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  • That's correct. The Dominicans gave a conference early this month, and Father Marie Laurence mentioned that Our Lord was communicating with St. Vincent and answering his prayers during the time in which St. Vincent was believing the anti-pope was the true pope, yet Our Lord did not mention to St. Vincent that he was following an anti-pope.
    The circuмstances were entirely different. This was the time of the Great Western Schism when three men had been elected pope by the Cardinals, and all three men claimed to be pope. It was nearly impossible to know for sure who the true pope was.  This was a case in which all three popes were truly "doubtful".  
    In our day there is one person elected by the Cardinals who claims to be pope, and unfortunately it is Francis.  Ratzinger quit, his resignation was accepted by the Church, and he no longer claims to be the pope.  There is only one person who claims to be Pope.  There is no comparison between our time and the Great Western Schism.
      
    Never trust; always verify.