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Author Topic: What is ѕυιcιdє?  (Read 1937 times)

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Offline Peter15and1

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What is ѕυιcιdє?
« on: November 05, 2015, 09:02:50 AM »
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  • I know and fully assent to the Church's teaching on ѕυιcιdє; that it is a mortal sin.  However, what exactly is ѕυιcιdє?  What is sinful, and what isn't?

    Obviously, things like hanging oneself or throwing oneself off of a bridge are clearly ѕυιcιdє and are sinful, as are things like physician-assisted ѕυιcιdє.  But what about other things?

    For example, what of an old person saying that don't want any more medical treatment, which is necessary for their survival?  Taking it further, what of a person with unhealthy or dangerous habits that, over time, will likely kill them?  In both cases, I don't think the people necessarily want to die, unlike the clear cases of ѕυιcιdє above, but the end result is that they are, in fact, causing their own demise.

    What does the Church teach?


    Online Ladislaus

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    What is ѕυιcιdє?
    « Reply #1 on: November 05, 2015, 09:54:34 AM »
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  • It's always been permitted to refuse "extraordinary means" to prolong life.  That's not ѕυιcιdє at all but just an admission that death is inevitable and resigning oneself to it.  There can be some gray area in terms of what constitutes "extraordinary" means and what does not.  Refusal of ordinary means could be considered tantamount to ѕυιcιdє.


    Offline Clemens Maria

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    What is ѕυιcιdє?
    « Reply #2 on: November 05, 2015, 10:34:27 AM »
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  • Here is what the Catholic Encyclopedia says about it.  Note: It is safe to ignore the things which the maintainer of the New Advent site wrote at the top concerning the Conciliar church's catechism.

    http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14326b.htm

    Offline Matthew

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    What is ѕυιcιdє?
    « Reply #3 on: November 05, 2015, 11:25:31 AM »
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  • No, smoking and eating red meat are not "ѕυιcιdє". The danger of death is quite remote, and far from certain. You gotta die somehow. If you somehow avoided heart disease, cancer would get you. Or some other disease.

    Risky "sports" like skydiving and bungee jumping are sinful though, because there's no reason to risk your life in that manner for the sake of "fun" or "a thrill". These sports are proof that society has reverted to paganism. These activities are pagan, and would never develop in a truly Catholic world.

    They do bungee jumping in Africa as a test of manhood -- they arrange it so that the head hits the ground just enough to hurt, but not enough to snap your neck.

    We also have tattoos, body piercings, promiscuity, human sacrifices done for material success (it's true -- abortions are committed so a woman will be "blessed" in her career and have material prosperity) and other pagan trappings. See? We've become pagan again.
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    Offline George3

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    What is ѕυιcιdє?
    « Reply #4 on: November 05, 2015, 11:57:38 AM »
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  • Is someone on hunger-strike committing ѕυιcιdє?


    Offline George3

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    What is ѕυιcιdє?
    « Reply #5 on: November 05, 2015, 12:38:08 PM »
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  • At the turn of the last century there was a case in England of a man who hung himself. At the inquest the medical report stated the man had died of a heart attack and not strangulation, i.e. while he was already hanging from a beam, he suffered heart failure before he could finish strangling himself.  Did he commit ѕυιcιdє?

    Online Ladislaus

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    What is ѕυιcιdє?
    « Reply #6 on: November 05, 2015, 12:42:46 PM »
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  • Quote from: George3
    Is someone on hunger-strike committing ѕυιcιdє?


    I believe that's a debated question.  From one perspective, since the ends doesn't justify the means, one cannot kill oneself in order to accomplish some other, greater good.  On the other hand, if it's looked at as just trying to wrong some injustice or whatever, with death being only an unintended secondary consequence, then someone might be able to justify it.  Let's say someone is hunger striking.  He doesn't really want to die but just wants his demand met or whatever.  Of course, such "demands" must be proportional to the loss of life that might result in order to gain it.  So this is a bit tricky I believe.

    I would never ever think of doing this lest I be wrong and find myself in hell when it's done.  Not even remotely worth the risk.

    Online Ladislaus

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    What is ѕυιcιdє?
    « Reply #7 on: November 05, 2015, 12:44:52 PM »
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  • Quote from: George3
    At the turn of the last century there was a case in England of a man who hung himself. At the inquest the medical report stated the man had died of a heart attack and not strangulation, i.e. while he was already hanging from a beam, he suffered heart failure before he could finish strangling himself.  Did he commit ѕυιcιdє?


    Even if the heart attack was completely unrelated to the hanging (which I doubt), while it may not technically have been ѕυιcιdє (materially speaking), it would still be ѕυιcιdє from the perspective of the formal intent.  That guy intended to kill himself and, as with all ѕυιcιdєs, if he died unrepentant of the intent to kill himself, then he would be lost.


    Offline Clemens Maria

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    What is ѕυιcιdє?
    « Reply #8 on: November 05, 2015, 12:58:45 PM »
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  • Quote from: George3
    Is someone on hunger-strike committing ѕυιcιdє?


    That would be negative and either direct or indirect ѕυιcιdє depending on the intention of the hunger striker.  If he intended to die then it is direct.  Otherwise it is indirect.

    Quote
    Negative and direct ѕυιcιdє

    Negative and direct ѕυιcιdє without the consent of God constitutes the same sin as positive ѕυιcιdє. In fact man has over his life only the right of use with corresponding obligations to preserve the object of God's dominion, the substance of his life. Hence, it follows obviously that he fails in this obligation of usufructuary who neglects the necessary means for the preservation of life, and this with the intention of destroying the latter, and consequently violates the rights of God.

    Negative and indirect ѕυιcιdє

    Negative and indirect ѕυιcιdє without the consent of God is also an attempt against the rights of the Creator and an injustice towards Him whenever without sufficient cause a man neglects all the means of preservation of which he should make use. If a man as usufructuary is obliged in justice to preserve his life, it follows that he is equally bound to make use of all the ordinary means which are indicated in the usual course of things, namely:

     * he should employ all the ordinary means which nature itself provides, such as to eat, drink, sleep, and so on;
     * moreover, he should avoid all dangers which he may easily avoid, e.g. to flee from a burning house, to escape from an infuriated animal when it may be done without difficulty.

    In fact to neglect the ordinary means for preserving life is equivalent to killing one's self, but the same is not true with regard to extraordinary means. Thus theologians teach that one is not bound in order to preserve life to employ remedies which, considering one's condition, are regarded as extraordinary and involving extraordinary expenditure; one is not obliged to undergo a very painful surgical operation, nor a considerable amputation, nor to go into exile in order to seek a more beneficial climate, etc. To use a comparison, the lessee of a house is bound to take care of it as becomes a good father of a family, to make use of the ordinary means for the preservation of the property, for instance, to extinguish a fire which he may easily extinguish, etc., but he is not bound to employ means considered extraordinary, such as to procure the latest novelties invented by science to prevent or extinguish fire.

    Application of principles

    The principles which have been outlined in the four propositions or divisions above given should serve for the solution of particular cases; however, the application may not always be equally easy, and thus a person may by an objectively unlawful act take his life and nevertheless consider it permissible and even an act of exalted virtue.

    It may be asked whether by performing or omitting a certain act a person may injure his health and shorten his life. To apply the foregoing principles: it is first of all clear (1st and 3rd propositions, A and C) that one may not have in view this hastening of death, but, this hypothesis aside, it may be said on the one hand that to expose oneself without sufficient reason to a considerable shortening of life constitutes a serious injury to the rights of the Creator; but on the other hand if the danger of death be not imminent, although it is to be feared that life may be shortened even by several years, it is not a grave but only a venial sin. This is the case with the drunkard who by his intemperance causes his premature death.

    Again it must be borne in mind that with the addition of a reasonable motive the thing may be entirely lawful and even an act of virtue; thus the workman does not sin by devoting himself to rough labor, and the saints performed a very meritorious and highly virtuous act when in order to overcome their passions they lacerated and tortured their flesh by penance and fasting and were thus the cause of their earlier death.


    Offline George3

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    What is ѕυιcιdє?
    « Reply #9 on: November 05, 2015, 01:04:55 PM »
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  • Quote from: Ladislaus
    Quote from: George3
    At the turn of the last century there was a case in England of a man who hung himself. At the inquest the medical report stated the man had died of a heart attack and not strangulation, i.e. while he was already hanging from a beam, he suffered heart failure before he could finish strangling himself.  Did he commit ѕυιcιdє?


    Even if the heart attack was completely unrelated to the hanging (which I doubt), while it may not technically have been ѕυιcιdє (materially speaking), it would still be ѕυιcιdє from the perspective of the formal intent.  That guy intended to kill himself and, as with all ѕυιcιdєs, if he died unrepentant of the intent to kill himself, then he would be lost.


    Yes, the manner of death is incidental to his intentions. I think it was ѕυιcιdє. Which brings me back to my first question. If the contention is that a hunger-striker does not intend to die, what then, specifically, are his intentions? Is a refusal to take food for an unlimited period ѕυιcιdє?

    Offline rum

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    What is ѕυιcιdє?
    « Reply #10 on: November 05, 2015, 01:06:30 PM »
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  • Quote from: Matthew
    No, smoking and eating red meat are not "ѕυιcιdє". The danger of death is quite remote, and far from certain. You gotta die somehow. If you somehow avoided heart disease, cancer would get you. Or some other disease.

    Risky "sports" like skydiving and bungee jumping are sinful though, because there's no reason to risk your life in that manner for the sake of "fun" or "a thrill". These sports are proof that society has reverted to paganism. These activities are pagan, and would never develop in a truly Catholic world.

    They do bungee jumping in Africa as a test of manhood -- they arrange it so that the head hits the ground just enough to hurt, but not enough to snap your neck.

    We also have tattoos, body piercings, promiscuity, human sacrifices done for material success (it's true -- abortions are committed so a woman will be "blessed" in her career and have material prosperity) and other pagan trappings. See? We've become pagan again.


    There was a guy who used to post on Fisheaters who created a stir by calling professional football sinful because of its violence.  Do you have info. on the Church condemning certain kinds of sports, or are we supposed to just know that skydiving and bungee jumping are sinful because they could possibly lead to death? There may be statistics out there that indicate in which sports one is more likely to die from participating.
    Some would have people believe that I'm a deceiver because I've used various handles on different Catholic forums. They only know this because I've always offered such information, unprompted. Various troll accounts on FE. Ben on SuscipeDomine. Patches on ABLF 1.0 and TeDeum. GuitarPlucker, Busillis, HatchC, and Rum on Cathinfo.


    Offline Disputaciones

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    What is ѕυιcιdє?
    « Reply #11 on: November 05, 2015, 01:08:46 PM »
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  • While we're on this ѕυιcιdє topic, I have always wondered about something.

    Everytime ѕυιcιdє is brought up, the question of whether or not the person repented is addressed, and I think, so just because he MAY have repented for the ѕυιcιdє, is that it? That means he/she didn't go to Hell? What about the persons entire life? What about all the other sins? After all, the ones who commit ѕυιcιdє aren't devout persons but people who already lead a bad/godless life.

    They make it seem as if repenting for the ѕυιcιdє will also "work" for all the other sins and the entire life of the person. And they say this of people who aren't even Catholic too, or in the Church.

    Offline Matthew

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    What is ѕυιcιdє?
    « Reply #12 on: November 05, 2015, 01:11:57 PM »
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  • I think it's common sense. Running around with a ball is obviously fine. It's a sport.

    Jumping thousands of feet out of an airplane is not natural. There is an unacceptable risk involved, especially when weighed against the potential good (mere "fun", or "a thrill").

    We are not on earth to have fun. Activities which unnecessarily risk our life (whether hard drugs, hallucinogens, "the choking game", bungee jumping, Russian roulette, skydiving) for the sake of a thrill are NOT legitimate for Catholics.

    We can have fun, but it must be within the bounds of morality. There are plenty of legit ways for Catholics to recreate and have fun.

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    Online Ladislaus

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    What is ѕυιcιdє?
    « Reply #13 on: November 05, 2015, 01:13:14 PM »
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  • Quote from: George3
    Quote from: Ladislaus
    Quote from: George3
    At the turn of the last century there was a case in England of a man who hung himself. At the inquest the medical report stated the man had died of a heart attack and not strangulation, i.e. while he was already hanging from a beam, he suffered heart failure before he could finish strangling himself.  Did he commit ѕυιcιdє?


    Even if the heart attack was completely unrelated to the hanging (which I doubt), while it may not technically have been ѕυιcιdє (materially speaking), it would still be ѕυιcιdє from the perspective of the formal intent.  That guy intended to kill himself and, as with all ѕυιcιdєs, if he died unrepentant of the intent to kill himself, then he would be lost.


    Yes, the manner of death is incidental to his intentions. I think it was ѕυιcιdє. Which brings me back to my first question. If the contention is that a hunger-striker does not intend to die, what then, specifically, are his intentions? Is a refusal to take food for an unlimited period ѕυιcιdє?


    His primary formal intention is to have his demands met with a secondary consequence (which he doesn't directly intend perhaps) of dying.  In other words, he might not want to die per se so he doesn't directly intend his death.  He directly intends whatever it is that he's trying to accomplish with his hunger strike, and not the death itself.  So the question becomes whether or not this is then just like any other unintended secondary consequence vs. ends justifies the means.

    Offline Matthew

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    What is ѕυιcιdє?
    « Reply #14 on: November 05, 2015, 01:13:56 PM »
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  • Quote from: Disputaciones
    While we're on this ѕυιcιdє topic, I have always wondered about something.

    Everytime ѕυιcιdє is brought up, the question of whether or not the person repented is addressed, and I think, so just because he MAY have repented for the ѕυιcιdє, is that it? That means he/she didn't go to Hell? What about the persons entire life? What about all the other sins? After all, the ones who commit ѕυιcιdє aren't devout persons but people who already lead a bad/godless life.

    They make it seem as if repenting for the ѕυιcιdє will also "work" for all the other sins and the entire life of the person. And they say this of people who aren't even Catholic too, or in the Church.


    They would have to manage perfect contrition, which, given a life of NOT practicing that goal, would be morally impossible. But not absolutely impossible.

    I certainly wouldn't bank my eternal salvation on the possibility. Nor should anyone. Anyone that foolish DESERVES the Hell they will merit.
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