Catholic Info
Traditional Catholic Faith => General Discussion => Topic started by: AnonymousCatholic on November 17, 2017, 10:46:30 AM
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So I had a discussion a few days ago on the topic of hell. It started on creation itself and moved to hell. Quick summary: God created an efficient and meaningful universe where everything serves a purpose. Example the Catechism and Catholic teaching 101 is necessary to a progressive (as in a society advancing technologically, philosophically, etc, not some follow up to the liberal revolution) and prosperous society. The laws aren't meant to be imposing or harsh they're simply necessary. Casual sex is frowned upon because its SCIENTIFICALLY proven to be harmful to a person mentally. I put an emphasis on scientifically because science is the understanding of the natural world meaning we can see the cause and effect. It's not just "because that's what God's will is" or some other childish, protestant understanding of God. So now lets move on to hell. The idea is comforting that some sick child molesting queer goes to hell, but really whats the point of it? They're not learning they're just suffering eternally. But then I remembered hearing that hell is the absence of God. That reminded me of my 1st grade catechism and specifically reading "without God's love we would cease to be". God's love and our link to God is required for us to exist, but if hell is the absence of God would that not mean that people who go to hell cease to exist? Perhaps Lucifer and his demons only exist because hell is an endgame that hasn't been enacted yet? Because purgatory is the suffering to purify the soul for heaven. That is suffering with a purpose and it is consistent with the way God made creation. But hell and eternal suffering seems pointless. Justice perhaps? Furthermore a lot of sin, especially like the previously mentioned child molester, is often the cause of the perpetrator themselves being victimized when they were young. Corrupted. They didn't know any better. It doesn't excuse the action of course but it makes hell seem pointless. Because that person isn't entirely functional is it fair to condemn them to an eternity of torture and suffering? The person ceasing to exist makes more sense. I am aware though how human this notion is, because I am applying what I would do if I had the power of life and death over said molester. They don't need torture they need a swift end.
So the question behind this mental splurge is, does anyone know any related resources specifically dealing with the issue? I'm going to hit up Catholic answers and actually do some research when I get the time, for now I figured I may as well pick the brains of cath info.
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So I had a discussion a few days ago on the topic of hell. It started on creation itself and moved to hell.
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Quick summary: God created an efficient and meaningful universe where everything serves a purpose. Example the Catechism and Catholic teaching 101 is necessary to a progressive (as in a society advancing technologically, philosophically, etc, not some follow up to the liberal revolution) and prosperous society. The laws aren't meant to be imposing or harsh, they're simply necessary.
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Casual sex is frowned upon because its SCIENTIFICALLY proven to be harmful to a person mentally. I put an emphasis on scientifically because science is the understanding of the natural world meaning we can, see the cause and effect. It's not just "because that's what God's will is" or some other childish, protestant understanding of God.
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So now lets move on to hell.
The idea is comforting that some sick child-molesting queer goes to hell, but really what's the point of it?
They're not learning, they're just suffering eternally.
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But then I remembered hearing that hell is the absence of God. That reminded me of my 1st grade catechism and specifically reading "without God's love we would cease to be".
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God's love and our link to God is required for us to exist, but if hell is the absence of God would that not mean that people who go to hell cease to exist? Perhaps Lucifer and his demons only exist because hell is an endgame that hasn't been enacted yet?
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Because purgatory is the suffering to purify the soul for heaven. That is suffering with a purpose and it is consistent with the way God made creation. But hell and eternal suffering seems pointless. Justice perhaps?
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Furthermore a lot of sin, especially like the previously mentioned child molester, is often the cause of the perpetrator themselves being victimized when they were young. Corrupted. They didn't know any better. It doesn't excuse the action of course but it makes hell seem pointless.
Because that person isn't entirely functional, is it fair to condemn them to an eternity of torture and suffering? The person ceasing to exist makes more sense.
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I am aware though how human this notion is, because I am applying what I would do if I had the power of life and death over said molester. They don't need torture, they need a swift end.
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So the question behind this mental splurge is, does anyone know any related resources specifically dealing with the issue?
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I'm going to hit up Catholic answers and actually do some research when I get the time, for now I figured I may as well pick the brains of CathInfo.
Just had to make it more reader-friendly, with a few commas and paragraphs.
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I think it is more accurate to say that it is the will of God that continues our existence. I cannot remember ever reading that we must be "linked" to God to continue to exist.
I think we have a few Thomists on CI who will do a better job explaining it than I can but for the time being here is a quote from the Baltimore Catechism #3:
Q. 1379. What is Hell (http://www.intratext.com/ixt/ENG0104/8S.HTM)?
A. Hell (http://www.intratext.com/ixt/ENG0104/8S.HTM) is a state (http://www.intratext.com/ixt/ENG0104/3X.HTM) to which the wicked (http://www.intratext.com/ixt/ENG0104/K5.HTM) are condemned (http://www.intratext.com/ixt/ENG0104/MK.HTM), and in which they are deprived (http://www.intratext.com/ixt/ENG0104/KZ.HTM) of the sight (http://www.intratext.com/ixt/ENG0104/TF.HTM) of God (http://www.intratext.com/ixt/ENG0104/D.HTM) for all eternity (http://www.intratext.com/ixt/ENG0104/YC.HTM), and are in dreadful (http://www.intratext.com/ixt/ENG0104/1/8Z.HTM) torments (http://www.intratext.com/ixt/ENG0104/1/L8.HTM).
Q (http://www.intratext.com/ixt/ENG0104/6.HTM). 1380. Will the damned (http://www.intratext.com/ixt/ENG0104/PP.HTM) suffer (http://www.intratext.com/ixt/ENG0104/AX.HTM) in both mind (http://www.intratext.com/ixt/ENG0104/9M.HTM) and body (http://www.intratext.com/ixt/ENG0104/1X.HTM)?
A. The damned (http://www.intratext.com/ixt/ENG0104/PP.HTM) will suffer (http://www.intratext.com/ixt/ENG0104/AX.HTM) in both mind (http://www.intratext.com/ixt/ENG0104/9M.HTM) and body (http://www.intratext.com/ixt/ENG0104/1X.HTM), because both mind (http://www.intratext.com/ixt/ENG0104/9M.HTM) and body (http://www.intratext.com/ixt/ENG0104/1X.HTM) had a share (http://www.intratext.com/ixt/ENG0104/H5.HTM)in their sins (http://www.intratext.com/ixt/ENG0104/15.HTM). The mind (http://www.intratext.com/ixt/ENG0104/9M.HTM) suffers (http://www.intratext.com/ixt/ENG0104/1/CI.HTM) the "pain (http://www.intratext.com/ixt/ENG0104/HE.HTM) of loss (http://www.intratext.com/ixt/ENG0104/DZ.HTM)" in which it is tortured (http://www.intratext.com/ixt/ENG0104/1/L7.HTM) by the thought (http://www.intratext.com/ixt/ENG0104/G9.HTM) of having (http://www.intratext.com/ixt/ENG0104/9X.HTM) lost (http://www.intratext.com/ixt/ENG0104/KK.HTM) God (http://www.intratext.com/ixt/ENG0104/D.HTM) forever (http://www.intratext.com/ixt/ENG0104/DD.HTM), and the body (http://www.intratext.com/ixt/ENG0104/1X.HTM) suffers (http://www.intratext.com/ixt/ENG0104/1/CI.HTM) the "pain (http://www.intratext.com/ixt/ENG0104/HE.HTM) of sense (http://www.intratext.com/ixt/ENG0104/LH.HTM)" by which it is tortured (http://www.intratext.com/ixt/ENG0104/1/L7.HTM) in all its members (http://www.intratext.com/ixt/ENG0104/80.HTM) and senses (http://www.intratext.com/ixt/ENG0104/TJ.HTM).
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Just had to make it more reader-friendly, with a few commas and paragraphs.
I wrote it in a hurry and I apologize for it's... unruly presentation.
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I think it is more accurate to say that it is the will of God that continues our existence. I cannot remember ever reading that we must be "linked" to God to continue to exist.
Well, everything which exists does derive its existence from God. So, maybe in that sense.
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No problem. I'm a frustrated editor.
Furthermore a lot of sin, especially like the previously mentioned child molester, is often the cause of the perpetrator themselves being victimized when they were young.
Did you not mean the result?
Corrupted. They didn't know any better. It doesn't excuse the action of course but it makes hell seem pointless. Because that person isn't entirely functional is it fair to condemn them to an eternity of torture and suffering?
We don't need to ask if what God ordains is fair. Rest assured it's the way to go, or rather not to go, in the case of chosing Hell. Besides whoever ends up in Hell has chosen the destination. God wants all of us to be saved, i.e. happy with Him in Heaven for all eternity. But He does not force the issue.
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An excellent book on Hell that I'm reading to my children for school is "The Sight of Hell" written by Rev. John Furmiss. It goes into the reason for Hell, and how just it is, as well as explaining some of the tortures and attempting to give children some idea of the length of eternity. Although written for children, it's fascinating to me as well. It addresses some of your questions regarding the purpose/justice/existence of Hell. Just a thought...
As far as someone being "not right", well, only God truly knows the interior state of a person's mind and their true intentions, and whether they are truly responsible for or aware of their actions. He judges accordingly.
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So now lets move on to hell. The idea is comforting that some sick child molesting queer goes to hell, but really whats the point of it? They're not learning they're just suffering eternally.
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Those in hell have passed their opportunity for learning. God's the Creator who has given us this world and this life as a test for our eternal existence. You're judging eternity on the basis of this world, but this world is not the "real" world. It is only a test to determine what your real world will be. Our understanding of reality in a spiritual sense must be based first of all on the reality of our eternal destiny. It is from that perspective that we need to view this world, in other words, it seems to me you have your perspective backwards.
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But then I remembered hearing that hell is the absence of God. That reminded me of my 1st grade catechism and specifically reading "without God's love we would cease to be".
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This is a good example of what happens when catechism teachers get too far ahead with the children. As God's creation we are "contingent beings" because we rely on God, and He is the cause of our existence. But there is no cause of God's existence. God is not a contingent being. God is the unmoved Mover, the uncreated Creator.
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In hell every person (devils are persons too) will suffer the absence of God, but that doesn't mean that God does not sustain hell's existence. God gave the angels their test, and some of them failed the test which is why they went immediately into hell for all eternity. Angels have a different manner of knowing and intelligence than men do, and for them, when they made their choice, they were perfectly informed and completely competent to decide with their free will. But their perfection of understanding meant that their choice was not reformable, and the moment of decision was all they got.
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To say that "without God's love we would cease to be" is a strange doctrine to put into the heads of children. How many of your classmates promptly forgot all about it? But you remembered. You never know what children will remember. Catechism teachers should be very careful. There may have been a lot more to that lesson that day, but that one sentence is what stuck in your case. The point is, we are reliant on God's love, because God IS love. We rely on God for love because that's what God is.
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There is a lot more to this, because you can say that about everything that is good. God is justice. God is truth. God is freedom. God is beauty. God is purity. God is righteousness. God is friendship. God is wisdom. God is light. There is nothing that is good that is not what God is, but we cannot say that God "has" any of these things, because in God there are no parts. God, in the final analysis, is being itself.
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Therefore, take God away, and being as being would be taken away. "We" are not the only thing that would cease to exist -- existence itself would no longer exist! Do you see how that covers the statement that without God we would cease to be? It is a more over-reaching or universal concept that embraces the thing that you heard many years ago, before you were ready to hear it!
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Try to imagine existence no longer existing, and you'll see it's just about as ridiculous as contemplating the moment before the so-called Big Bang (which is a stupid conundrum of the modern mind).
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God's love and our link to God is required for us to exist, but if hell is the absence of God would that not mean that people who go to hell cease to exist? Perhaps Lucifer and his demons only exist because hell is an endgame that hasn't been enacted yet? Because purgatory is the suffering to purify the soul for heaven. That is suffering with a purpose and it is consistent with the way God made creation. But hell and eternal suffering seems pointless. Justice perhaps? Furthermore a lot of sin, especially like the previously mentioned child molester, is often the cause of the perpetrator themselves being victimized when they were young. Corrupted. They didn't know any better. It doesn't excuse the action of course but it makes hell seem pointless. Because that person isn't entirely functional is it fair to condemn them to an eternity of torture and suffering? The person ceasing to exist makes more sense. I am aware though how human this notion is, because I am applying what I would do if I had the power of life and death over said molester. They don't need torture they need a swift end.
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I have to go right now, but I'll be back later.......
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God's love and our link to God is required for us to exist, but if hell is the absence of God would that not mean that people who go to hell cease to exist?
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When you say "our link to God" perhaps you've been stuck on a false notion. God does not need our existence but we need God's existence. God does not depend on us for anything, but we depend on God for everything. So this "link to God" to which you refer can be thought of as a one-way link, inasmuch as it is our reliance on God for everything. However, when considered as our act of prayer and God's response to prayers as His gift of grace to us, it's not a one-way link. So what are you talking about?
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In hell, there is no more opportunity to pray to God, so those who are in hell have no more opportunity to receive His grace. This world is our time for mercy; after this comes the judgment, which is the time for justice. It is a terrible thing to be touched by the hand of God.
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In eternity the glory of salvation is founded on being saved from the alternative and that alternative (hell) is as eternal as the glory of heaven. All the saved in heaven will rejoice at the reality of hell's existence because it manifests the eternal goodness and wisdom of God. All the saved in heaven will have full knowledge of the opportunity passed up by those who are damned and being saved will be one and the same as accepting this finality and permanence. Anyone on the way to heaven who cannot accept God's eternal and perfect wisdom will have to remain in Purgatory until such time as they leave their erroneous opinions behind them, since such erroneous opinions are imperfections, and nothing imperfect is possible in heaven.
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Perhaps Lucifer and his demons only exist because hell is an endgame that hasn't been enacted yet?
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There was a Pope who held the heresy that hell is not effective until the general judgment at the end of the world. A saint counseled him as he lay dying and he fortunately repented of his error before he died. The Church has always taught that the moment a man dies he goes to his particular judgment and if he is condemned there his soul goes directly to hell, that is, without his body. After the general judgment all those who inhabit hell will receive their bodies back and will continue to experience the torments of hell with the full complement of sensual pain because they will have their bodies again. The devils have no body so they won't be getting one, however, they will manifest themselves to the people in hell in their various hideous forms in order to inflict torments on the damned.
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A man complained to Padre Pio that his friend does not believe in hell. Padre Pio told him, That's okay, tell him he can believe as he likes for now, but he will have no doubt how real hell is the moment he arrives there.
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Because purgatory is the suffering to purify the soul for heaven. That is suffering with a purpose and it is consistent with the way God made creation. But hell and eternal suffering seems pointless. Justice perhaps?
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Purgatory, correct. The pains of purgatory are the same as the pains of hell, however, there is a difference in two ways, first, those in purgatory don't have their body back yet just as those in hell don't, but in purgatory there is the awareness that the suffering will eventually come to an end and then there will be eternal bliss. Since this time or duration (there is no time really after death, but that's another topic) will transpire in the spiritual existence of the disembodied soul, the awareness of the passing nature of purgatory will be an enormous consolation for the inhabitants thereof, and an enormous torment for those who were so unfortunate as to not make it to purgatory. Therefore, the second difference comes from the additional intellectual torment that the damned already suffer even before they suffer with their bodies, and the souls in purgatory don't have that manner of suffering to endure. One way of suffering is the pain of being in this place of purification (purgatory) or of damnation (hell), while the other way of suffering is due to the knowledge that this purification will eventually (as it were) end, a sort of negative suffering or consolation, or else the knowledge that this eternal judgment will never come to an end and it will only get worse when one's body is reunited.
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I wonder if the souls in hell will try to run away from their bodies when they're being returned.
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If hell were to be extinguished then God's perfect justice would be less than perfect, which is impossible. All the persons in hell are there because that is what they have chosen with their free will. No one goes to hell when they don't deserve it, and they become deserving of it when that is what they have chosen.
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Furthermore a lot of sin, especially like the previously mentioned child molester, is often the cause of the perpetrator themselves being victimized when they were young. Corrupted. They didn't know any better. It doesn't excuse the action of course but it makes hell seem pointless.
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The sin that was perpetrated during his childhood on a person is the cause of his injury. Such an experience is less than ideal, certainly, and it can have life-long implications. Anyone with such a handicap should take measures to seek help and take care not to perpetuate this injustice on others. God only knows the interior disposition of anyone. It's a big leap from there to say "it makes hell seem pointless." No one goes to hell who doesn't deserve it. It's not the place of the Church to pronounce on who is or who is not in hell.
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Ultimate justice is a principle that is necessary for man to live a moral life. Without the responsibility to become accountable for one's actions or sins, there would not be any reason to try to do the right thing.
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Because that person isn't entirely functional is it fair to condemn them to an eternity of torture and suffering?
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It isn't our place to say whether "that person" goes to hell. Certainly God knows whether he was "entirely functional" or not. It's nice that God's the one who has to make this decision. No doubt there are many degrees of perfect or imperfect functionality, and perhaps some of them are not relevant, God only knows. But one thing is sure: Nobody Goes to Hell Who Doesn't Deserve it.
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The person ceasing to exist makes more sense.
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It seems to me you could only be saying that because you've become dug in to an erroneous notion of being, justice and eternity. You can't just have "the person" that is one individual, being snuffed out completely. What about everyone else? One of the principle errors of liberalism is for the exception to become the rule. So then if one person ceases to exist, then ultimately everyone ceases to exist, because there are no exceptions to perfect justice, otherwise it wouldn't be perfect.
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I am aware though how human this notion is, because I am applying what I would do if I had the power of life and death over said molester. They don't need torture they need a swift end.
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We can rest assured that God knows what He is doing. If He can take that said molester and put him in purgatory till the end of the world by which "time" he would be made perfect, then that's God's business, not ours. But consider the young girl in 1917, a friend of Lucia of Fatima about whom Lucia asked Our Lady if she was in heaven, and was given the reply that the girl (who couldn't have possibly done anything so terrible as molesting children!) would be in purgatory till the end of the world -- it doesn't look too good for the pervert.
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Here (https://www.cathinfo.com/the-library/so-high-the-price/)is a nice, easy to read little online book on Hell.
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...But hell and eternal suffering seems pointless. Justice perhaps? Furthermore a lot of sin, especially like the previously mentioned child molester, is often the cause of the perpetrator themselves being victimized when they were young. Corrupted. They didn't know any better. It doesn't excuse the action of course but it makes hell seem pointless. Because that person isn't entirely functional is it fair to condemn them to an eternity of torture and suffering? The person ceasing to exist makes more sense. I am aware though how human this notion is, because I am applying what I would do if I had the power of life and death over said molester. They don't need torture they need a swift end.
So the question behind this mental splurge is, does anyone know any related resources specifically dealing with the issue? I'm going to hit up Catholic answers and actually do some research when I get the time, for now I figured I may as well pick the brains of cath info.
Snip from a sermon on hell from Fr. Wathen:
...Intrinsic in the idea of hell is it's everlastingness. One cannot conceive of a punishment sufficient for those who have defied God all their lives, till their deaths, and who have simply refused to accept God in His sovereignty and refused to do His will. It is altogether contrary, repugnant to reason that there would not be a punishment. This punishment has to last forever simply because these individuals, if hell did not last forever, would have beaten God. They would have defied Him and gotten away with it.
So of course, those who go to hell, don't go for temporary chastisement, they go there because they hate God and they will never do other. That is why hell lasts always, just as the devils do not hate God less because they have been there who knows how many eons. If anything, we would say that the devils hate God more after all that they have suffered because their suffering does not determine whether they will serve Him or despise Him, their own wills determine this.
Our Lord spoke of hell 15 times in the Scriptures and the things that He said make it clear to us that hell is a state and a place of everlasting burning. He mentioned hell more often, more times then He mentioned the doctrine of the Blessed Eucharist. Among the things He said - "Depart from me ye cursed ones, into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels."...
"...where the worm dieth not, neither is the fire quenched". And therein does Christ tell us of the two terrible torments of hell. "The worm that dieth not" refers to the pain of loss and the "fire that is not quenched" refers to the pain of sense. Because people are inclined to give too much intention to the pain of sense, we want you to consider the pain of loss, which is the essential punishment of hell.
The pain of loss is simply the everlasting recognition that one is in hell because one chose to be there. On earth he made his alibis and he pointed fingers at others and he imagined that he is going to blame his parents or blame society or blame hard luck, but in hell, no one blames anyone but himself because in hell, everyone knows why he is there, because he knows that he has rejected God - and in turn, God has, despite His love, rejected him. And the pain of loss is that terrible torment of the recognition of what one might have done but did not. That one might be enjoying the beatitude of heaven, but will never.....
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You can learn about Hell by going on a St Ignatius SSPX Silent retreat. During the holy retreat there is instruction on avoiding Hell. Heaven to be with Jesus is our goal.
The bible tells us what happens to those who harm children.
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Douay-Rheims Bible (http://biblehub.com/drb/matthew/18.htm)
But he that shall scandalize one of these little ones that believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone should be hanged about his neck, and that he should be drowned in the depth of the sea. St Mathew
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A cavernous lake of fire, within the earth's center.
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQ49rTbubeoJLaDaYvskeYxV8_PRupZQEZjXMzHtSt9gMtriOMR)
Go here to listen to the lost souls rave about it: Hell Link (https://youtu.be/uU2HFFCr71k)
It's like being burned alive at a rock concert... for eternity!
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A cavernous lake of fire, within the earth's center.
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQ49rTbubeoJLaDaYvskeYxV8_PRupZQEZjXMzHtSt9gMtriOMR)
Go here to listen to the lost souls rave about it: Hell Link (https://youtu.be/uU2HFFCr71k)
It's like being burned alive at a rock concert... for eternity!
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I was going to say, reminds me of one of the local "haunted houses" for the Eve of All Hallows.
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Wait a minute -- are you trying to stir up some opposition from the flat-earthers again!?!?
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Okay, how about this one ?
(https://www.richarddawkins.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/512flatearth.jpg)
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A cavernous lake of fire, within the earth's center.
Go here to listen to the lost souls rave about it: Hell Link (https://youtu.be/uU2HFFCr71k)
It's like being burned alive at a rock concert... for eternity!
All joking apart, this Hell link video scared the daylights out of me because it is as I have been taught all my life in the Catholic Church.
'In the same instant also was decreed the creation of the empyrean heaven, for the manifestation of his glory and the reward of the good; also the Earth and the heavenly bodies for the other creatures; also in the centre or depth of the Earth, hell, for the punishment of the bad angels….
…. God created the Earth co-jointly with the heavens in order to call into existence hell in its centre; for, at the instant of its creation, there were left in the interior of that globe, spacious and wide cavities, suitable for hell, purgatory and limbo. And in hell was created at the same time material fire and other requisites, which now serve for the punishment of the damned.' --- Mary of Agreda; ‘The Mystical City of God.’
AnanymousCatholic asked about Hell. He made very interesting comments, for I myself - as a normal Catholic trying, not always successfully to avoid sin - have had a lot of questions about Hell that are always dismissed as just by theological opinions.
The first is that God is just and therefore Hell for all eternity is a just punishment. May God forgive me but how can a person who dies with one mortal sin on their soul and who goes to Hell for all eternity with its fire and knowing loss of God be just. It as though it is a lottery. One can live a life of deliberate sin and at the last minute have the priest and avoid Hell getting to heaven eventually for all eternity. Another practicing Catholic can drop dead with a heart attack at a time when they have that mortal sin on their soul and go to Hell for all eternity. Perhaps what I failing to understand properly is the term 'Mortal' and what may not be, if you know what I mean.
Over the years I have been shocked at stories of torture throughout history. I think most of us would share this view. Some possibly deserve this punishment yes, but there is an end to it. But then I am taught that this Catholic God of Love has created ETERNAL punishments for humans. If fire is one of these, then the screams in that terrifying video reflect Catholic reality not fiction.
Why would our God think up such a punishment? Is that the God of love taught by Christianity? He created us with a certain nature and then ordered us to hold back on that nature at the risk of eternal punishment. On earth all punishments are temporary and our courts administer justice. I wish God would do the same, a certain time of punishment in line with the sin and then either heaven or NOTHING, gone. That it will go on without end is so terrifying it is almost beyond human comprehension.
Alas to be a Catholic I am obliged to accept that eternal Hell and all its punishments are just because God is Just. That I will do without really understanding how this can be. They say 'fear of Hell' is one way to get to Heaven, but what a motive for any religion! I must accept it without understanding it. Oh yes I have heard many theological explanations for this but none of them have ever made sense to me.
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The first is that God is just and therefore Hell for all eternity is a just punishment. May God forgive me but how can a person who dies with one mortal sin on their soul and who goes to Hell for all eternity with its fire and knowing loss of God be just. It as though it is a lottery. One can live a life of deliberate sin and at the last minute have the priest and avoid Hell getting to heaven eventually for all eternity. Another practicing Catholic can drop dead with a heart attack at a time when they have that mortal sin on their soul and go to Hell for all eternity. Perhaps what I failing to understand properly is the term 'Mortal' and what may not be, if you know what I mean.
I do not think we can even begin to conceive how terribly offended God is by a single mortal sin - consider Adam and Eve, all they did was eat an apple and look what happened to the whole world - yet they made it to heaven. A lot of it has to do with God being eternal.
From So High the Price:
The optimists object: “Can it be possible that God punishes a momentary sinful pleasure with an eternity of pain?”
It is not only possible, but it is right and just. The offense given by the sinner to God when he transgresses His holy laws involves infinite malice, since it is an offense to infinite Majesty. Therefore, it deserves an infinite punishment. But since man, being finite, is incapable of undergoing punishment that is infinite in intensity, God punishes him with a chastisement infinite in duration. In acting thus, God acts justly.
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Both very thoughtful, fairly profound posts, by Cassini and Stubborn.
This is what we should be contemplating daily, a just fear of Our Lord :pray:
On the other side of the coin, how can we be rewarded with Heavenly bliss, for eternity?
As it is said, God's ways are not our ways.
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God's ways are not our ways.
This is the view that I cling to when trying to understand hell.
I confess that I have often struggled in the same way that Cassini articulates so well. It has led me to wonder often are there degrees of hell? That would be more comforting than the idea that a good person who dropped dead on their way to confession to seek absolution for one mortal sin might end up in the same place for all eternity as a mass murderer, a rapist or a paedophile. I can't see the justice in that, which is where 'God's ways are not are ways' come in.
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This is the view that I cling to when trying to understand hell.
I confess that I have often struggled in the same way that Cassini articulates so well. It has led me to wonder often are there degrees of hell? That would be more comforting than the idea that a good person who dropped dead on their way to confession to seek absolution for one mortal sin might end up in the same place for all eternity as a mass murderer, a rapist or a paedophile. I can't see the justice in that, which is where 'God's ways are not are ways' come in.
OF COURSE there are degrees of hell. One of the Church's dogmatic definitions of EENS specifically states as much. So it's the teaching of the Church that there are degrees of hell. And that's why so many people have problems with the dogma EENS ... because they think of hell as this monolithic place where a kindly Jєωιѕн grandmother who gave her life for her kids is right next to Joe Stalin and suffering the same "tortures". In some areas of hell, e.g. Limbo, there's actually perfect natural happiness ... and I am sure that there are places in hell where people suffer very little ... nor more than an average person might suffer in this life. God is perfectly just and merciful. Everybody fashions their own state of soul for eternity ... according to their desires.
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from the Catholic Encyclopedia:
The pains of hell differ in degree according to demerit. This holds true (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15073a.htm) not only of the pain of sense, but also of the pain of loss. A more intense hatred (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07149b.htm) of God (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608a.htm), a more vivid consciousness of utter abandonment by Divine goodness (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06636b.htm), a more restless craving to satisfy the natural desire for beatitude with things external to God (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608a.htm), a more acute sense of shame and confusion at the folly of having sought happiness (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07131b.htm) in earthly enjoyment — all this implies as its correlation a more complete and more painful separation from God (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608a.htm).
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...the idea that a good person who dropped dead on their way to confession to seek absolution for one mortal sin might end up in the same place for all eternity as a mass murderer, a rapist or a paedophile. I can't see the justice in that, which is where 'God's ways are not are ways' come in.
I have never heard of a person dying on their way to confession, just forget that idea.
They used to teach that if something as unthinkable as that ever did happen, it was because in His mercy, God took the person earlier than "scheduled" because He knew the person would have committed an additional sin of sacrilege, perhaps by purposely not confessing one or more mortal sins, then going on to commit more and greater sins the rest of his life. So by God taking that person when He did, God was merciful in that He lessened the person's eternal sufferings.
But that whole line of thinking is right up there with the idea of one dying and going to hell an instant after removing their scapular to bathe, or the catechumen being struck down on his way to get baptized. It's all wrong thinking because God created us to be happy with Him in heaven forever, that is the reason, the singular purpose that He created each us, not to send us to hell out of spite. God does not send anyone to hell out of spite.
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I have never heard of a person dying on their way to confession, just forget that idea.
With respect Stubborn, just because you haven't heard of something does not mean it never happens. I am quite sure that there are lots of things occurring in the world right now that you have never heard of.
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With respect Stubborn, just because you haven't heard of something does not mean it never happens. I am quite sure that there are lots of things occurring in the world right now that you have never heard of.
"I have never heard of a person dying on their way to confession, just forget that idea." is only me saying - I never heard of so many Catholics who have so little faith in God they they think that God could be some type of a monster.
When I was in first grade at Catholic school, a third grade boy was accidentally shot in the head and killed at his own birthday party. They didn't bring in grief counselors or trauma experts, the nuns and the priests told us children pretty much what I wrote above. That's the way they used to teach about God's justice - and His love and mercy, they taught the faith in a way children will remember their whole life - or at least 50 years later. I don't fault anyone for not knowing this as I know it, heck, they haven't taught the faith like that since who knows when, but we have got to have faith in God or what's the use?
The hypothetical person who died on his way to confession could have gone to purgatory since he had a venial sin and not mortal sin on his soul. Who knows?
The point I tried to make is entirely lost if all that matters is me saying I never heard of such a thing. It's not that I have heard or seen everything, thankfully I haven't - obviously. The point is that every moment of our existence on earth is only to get to heaven, that's where God wants us, that's the only reason He made us and if we die unexpectedly, then we had best be prepared. We were warned that He would come for us like a thief in the night, right? Besides all that, God does not condemn anyone, we all condemn ourselves.
"Before man is life and death, good and evil, that which he shall choose shall be given him:" Eccl 15:18
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With respect Stubborn, just because you haven't heard of something does not mean it never happens. I am quite sure that there are lots of things occurring in the world right now that you have never heard of.
Well, you need to forget the idea because it gives you a warped notion of God ... like He's just waiting behind the bushes waiting for you to slip up so that He can pop out at the exact moment and zap you dead. God does the opposite; He gives every soul the absolutely best opportunity to save his soul.
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Died right after Confession... whistling as he walked to his firing squad.
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/87/18/4c/87184cdc64b6786acec53c3c12c6e3f5.jpg)
Padraic Pearse, leader of the May 1, 1916 Irish revolt against
the ʝʊdɛօ-masonic Brits.
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OF COURSE there are degrees of hell. One of the Church's dogmatic definitions of EENS specifically states as much. So it's the teaching of the Church that there are degrees of hell. And that's why so many people have problems with the dogma EENS ... because they think of hell as this monolithic place where a kindly Jєωιѕн grandmother who gave her life for her kids is right next to Joe Stalin and suffering the same "tortures". In some areas of hell, e.g. Limbo, there's actually perfect natural happiness ... and I am sure that there are places in hell where people suffer very little ... nor more than an average person might suffer in this life. God is perfectly just and merciful. Everybody fashions their own state of soul for eternity ... according to their desires.
These are dogmatic definitions:
Council of Lyons II (1274):
The souls of those who die in mortal sin or with original sin only, however, immediately descend to Hell, yet to be punished with different punishments.
Council of Florence, Decree for the Greeks (1439):
It is likewise defined that... the souls of those who depart in actual mortal sin or in original sin only, descend immediately into Hell but to undergo punishments of different kinds.
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Hell is a place much like New Jersey. (As seen on a t shirt)
Now all levity aside, this Sunday's Epistle and Gospel give us much to contemplate regarding the Last Things.
What I find truly monstrous is the modernist (and heretical) theologies of Karl Rahner and Hans von Balthasar, for when you get down to the nitty gritty, no matter what you do, you will end up in Heaven. A horrible perversion of the gift of free will from Our Loving Father.
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These are dogmatic definitions:
Council of Lyons II (1274):
Council of Florence, Decree for the Greeks (1439):
Thanks, Cantarella. I didn't have these at my fingertips when I referred to them.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u0S4RaTcYpY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u0S4RaTcYpY)
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sRvTTrZs-nU&t=1s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sRvTTrZs-nU&t=1s)
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-7F9zXjs5fY&t=43s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-7F9zXjs5fY&t=43s)
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVeTUNCkecw&t=108s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVeTUNCkecw&t=108s)
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3Ep8E91Kk4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3Ep8E91Kk4)
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=efiJauhz664 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=efiJauhz664)
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=drE93Gj0qAA&t=965s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=drE93Gj0qAA&t=965s)
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=srqYd8bQNn8&t=4s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=srqYd8bQNn8&t=4s)
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Mahh0zK0PI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Mahh0zK0PI)
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A cavernous lake of fire, within the earth's center.
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQ49rTbubeoJLaDaYvskeYxV8_PRupZQEZjXMzHtSt9gMtriOMR)
Go here to listen to the lost souls rave about it: Hell Link (https://youtu.be/uU2HFFCr71k)
It's like being burned alive at a rock concert... for eternity!
(https://i.imgur.com/zzTFhrZ.jpg)