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Author Topic: What is Hell?  (Read 2105 times)

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Offline Incredulous

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Re: What is Hell?
« Reply #15 on: November 18, 2017, 04:56:43 PM »
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    • Okay, how about this one ?

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    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi

    Offline cassini

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    Re: What is Hell?
    « Reply #16 on: November 24, 2017, 06:57:04 AM »
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    • Quote from: Incredulous on November 18, 2017, 04:02:57 PM
    A cavernous lake of fire, within the earth's center.


    Go here to listen to the lost souls rave about it:

    It's like being burned alive at a rock concert... for eternity!

    All joking apart, this Hell link video scared the daylights out of me because it is as I have been taught all my life in the Catholic Church.

    'In the same instant also was decreed the creation of the empyrean heaven, for the manifestation of his glory and the reward of the good; also the Earth and the heavenly bodies for the other creatures; also in the centre or depth of the Earth, hell, for the punishment of the bad angels….
    …. God created the Earth co-jointly with the heavens in order to call into existence hell in its centre; for, at the instant of its creation, there were left in the interior of that globe, spacious and wide cavities, suitable for hell, purgatory and limbo. And in hell was created at the same time material fire and other requisites, which now serve for the punishment of the damned.' --- Mary of Agreda; ‘The Mystical City of God.’ 

    AnanymousCatholic asked about Hell. He made very interesting comments, for I myself - as a normal Catholic trying, not always successfully to avoid sin -  have had a lot of questions about Hell that are always dismissed as just by theological opinions.

    The first is that God is just and therefore Hell for all eternity is a just punishment. May God forgive me but how can a person who dies with one mortal sin on their soul and who goes to Hell for all eternity with its fire and knowing loss of God be just. It as though it is a lottery. One can live a life of deliberate sin and at the last minute have the priest and avoid Hell getting to heaven eventually for all eternity. Another practicing Catholic can drop dead with a heart attack at a time when they have that mortal sin on their soul and go to Hell for all eternity. Perhaps what I failing to understand properly is the term 'Mortal' and what may not be, if you know what I mean.

    Over the years I have been shocked at stories of torture throughout history. I think most of us would share this view. Some possibly deserve this punishment yes, but there is an end to it. But then I am taught that this Catholic God of Love has created ETERNAL punishments for humans. If fire is one of these, then the screams in that terrifying video reflect Catholic reality not fiction.

    Why would our God think up such a punishment? Is that the God of love taught by Christianity? He created us with a certain nature and then ordered us to hold back on that nature at the risk of eternal punishment. On earth all punishments are temporary and our courts administer justice. I wish God would do the same, a certain time of punishment in line with the sin and then either heaven or NOTHING, gone. That it will go on without end is so terrifying it is almost beyond human comprehension.

    Alas to be a Catholic I am obliged to accept that eternal Hell and all its  punishments are just because God is Just. That I will do without really understanding how this can be. They say 'fear of Hell' is one way to get to Heaven, but what a motive for any religion! I must accept it without understanding it. Oh yes I have heard many theological explanations for this but none of them have ever made sense to me.
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: What is Hell?
    « Reply #17 on: November 24, 2017, 07:39:50 AM »
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    • Quote from: cassini on November 24, 2017, 06:57:04 AM
    The first is that God is just and therefore Hell for all eternity is a just punishment. May God forgive me but how can a person who dies with one mortal sin on their soul and who goes to Hell for all eternity with its fire and knowing loss of God be just. It as though it is a lottery. One can live a life of deliberate sin and at the last minute have the priest and avoid Hell getting to heaven eventually for all eternity. Another practicing Catholic can drop dead with a heart attack at a time when they have that mortal sin on their soul and go to Hell for all eternity. Perhaps what I failing to understand properly is the term 'Mortal' and what may not be, if you know what I mean.
    I do not think we can even begin to conceive how terribly offended God is by a single mortal sin - consider Adam and Eve, all they did was eat an apple and look what happened to the whole world - yet they made it to heaven. A lot of it has to do with God being eternal.

    From So High the Price: 

    The optimists object: “Can it be possible that God punishes a momentary sinful pleasure with an eternity of pain?”
    It is not only possible, but it is right and just. The offense given by the sinner to God when he transgresses His holy laws involves infinite malice, since it is an offense to infinite Majesty. Therefore, it deserves an infinite punishment. But since man, being finite, is incapable of undergoing punishment that is infinite in intensity, God punishes him with a chastisement infinite in duration. In acting thus, God acts justly.

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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: What is Hell?
    « Reply #18 on: November 24, 2017, 07:56:21 AM »
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    • Both very thoughtful, fairly profound posts, by Cassini and Stubborn.

    This is what we should be contemplating daily, a just fear of Our Lord  :pray:

    On the other side of the coin, how can we be rewarded with Heavenly bliss, for eternity?

    As it is said, God's ways are not our ways.

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    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi

    Offline Irish_Catholic

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    Re: What is Hell?
    « Reply #19 on: November 24, 2017, 09:19:34 AM »
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    • Quote from: Incredulous on November 24, 2017, 07:56:21 AM

    God's ways are not our ways.
    This is the view that I cling to when trying to understand hell.
    I confess that I have often struggled in the same way that Cassini articulates so well. It has led me to wonder often are there degrees of hell? That would be more comforting than the idea that a good person who dropped dead on their way to confession to seek absolution for one mortal sin might end up in the same place for all eternity as a mass murderer, a rapist or a paedophile. I can't see the justice in that, which is where 'God's ways are not are ways' come in.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: What is Hell?
    « Reply #20 on: November 24, 2017, 09:31:04 AM »
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    • Quote from: Irish_Catholic on November 24, 2017, 09:19:34 AM
    This is the view that I cling to when trying to understand hell.
    I confess that I have often struggled in the same way that Cassini articulates so well. It has led me to wonder often are there degrees of hell? That would be more comforting than the idea that a good person who dropped dead on their way to confession to seek absolution for one mortal sin might end up in the same place for all eternity as a mass murderer, a rapist or a paedophile. I can't see the justice in that, which is where 'God's ways are not are ways' come in.

    OF COURSE there are degrees of hell.  One of the Church's dogmatic definitions of EENS specifically states as much.  So it's the teaching of the Church that there are degrees of hell.  And that's why so many people have problems with the dogma EENS ... because they think of hell as this monolithic place where a kindly Jєωιѕн grandmother who gave her life for her kids is right next to Joe Stalin and suffering the same "tortures".  In some areas of hell, e.g. Limbo, there's actually perfect natural happiness ... and I am sure that there are places in hell where people suffer very little ... nor more than an average person might suffer in this life.  God is perfectly just and merciful.  Everybody fashions their own state of soul for eternity ... according to their desires.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: What is Hell?
    « Reply #21 on: November 24, 2017, 09:34:20 AM »
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    • from the Catholic Encyclopedia:

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    The pains of hell differ in degree according to demerit. This holds true not only of the pain of sense, but also of the pain of loss. A more intense hatred of God, a more vivid consciousness of utter abandonment by Divine goodness, a more restless craving to satisfy the natural desire for beatitude with things external to God, a more acute sense of shame and confusion at the folly of having sought happiness in earthly enjoyment — all this implies as its correlation a more complete and more painful separation from God.
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: What is Hell?
    « Reply #22 on: November 24, 2017, 10:04:46 AM »
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    • Quote from: Irish_Catholic on November 24, 2017, 09:19:34 AM
    ...the idea that a good person who dropped dead on their way to confession to seek absolution for one mortal sin might end up in the same place for all eternity as a mass murderer, a rapist or a paedophile. I can't see the justice in that, which is where 'God's ways are not are ways' come in.
    I have never heard of a person dying on their way to confession, just forget that idea.

    They used to teach that if something as unthinkable as that ever did happen, it was because in His mercy, God took the person earlier than "scheduled" because He knew the person would have committed an additional sin of sacrilege, perhaps by purposely not confessing one or more mortal sins, then going on to commit more and greater sins the rest of his life. So by God taking that person when He did,  God was merciful in that He lessened the person's eternal sufferings.
     
    But that whole line of thinking is right up there with the idea of one dying and going to hell an instant after removing their scapular to bathe, or the catechumen being struck down on his way to get baptized. It's all wrong thinking because God created us to be happy with Him in heaven forever, that is the reason, the singular purpose that He created each us, not to send us to hell out of spite. God does not send anyone to hell out of spite.
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Irish_Catholic

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    Re: What is Hell?
    « Reply #23 on: November 24, 2017, 01:18:12 PM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on November 24, 2017, 10:04:46 AM
    I have never heard of a person dying on their way to confession, just forget that idea.
    With respect Stubborn, just because you haven't heard of something does not mean it never happens. I am quite sure that there are lots of things occurring in the world right now that you have never heard of.
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: What is Hell?
    « Reply #24 on: November 24, 2017, 02:02:00 PM »
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    • Quote from: Irish_Catholic on November 24, 2017, 01:18:12 PM
    With respect Stubborn, just because you haven't heard of something does not mean it never happens. I am quite sure that there are lots of things occurring in the world right now that you have never heard of.
    "I have never heard of a person dying on their way to confession, just forget that idea." is only me saying - I never heard of so many Catholics who have so little faith in God they they think that God could be some type of a monster.

    When I was in first grade at Catholic school, a third grade boy was accidentally shot in the head and killed at his own birthday party. They didn't bring in grief counselors or trauma experts, the nuns and the priests told us children pretty much what I wrote above. That's the way they used to teach about God's justice - and His love and mercy, they taught the faith in a way children will remember their whole life - or at least 50 years later. I don't fault anyone for not knowing this as I know it, heck, they haven't taught the faith like that since who knows when, but we have got to have faith in God or what's the use?

    The hypothetical person who died on his way to confession could have gone to purgatory since he had a venial sin and not mortal sin on his soul. Who knows?

    The point I tried to make is entirely lost if all that matters is me saying I never heard of such a thing. It's not that I have heard or seen everything, thankfully I haven't - obviously. The point is that every moment of our existence on earth is only to get to heaven, that's where God wants us, that's the only reason He made us and if we die unexpectedly, then we had best be prepared. We were warned that He would come for us like a thief in the night, right? Besides all that, God does not condemn anyone, we all condemn ourselves.

    "Before man is life and death, good and evil, that which he shall choose shall be given him:" Eccl 15:18


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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: What is Hell?
    « Reply #25 on: November 24, 2017, 03:04:52 PM »
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    • Quote from: Irish_Catholic on November 24, 2017, 01:18:12 PM
    With respect Stubborn, just because you haven't heard of something does not mean it never happens. I am quite sure that there are lots of things occurring in the world right now that you have never heard of.

    Well, you need to forget the idea because it gives you a warped notion of God ... like He's just waiting behind the bushes waiting for you to slip up so that He can pop out at the exact moment and zap you dead.  God does the opposite; He gives every soul the absolutely best opportunity to save his soul.
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    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: What is Hell?
    « Reply #26 on: November 24, 2017, 04:12:19 PM »
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    • Died right after Confession... whistling as he walked to his firing squad.


    Padraic Pearse, leader of the May 1, 1916 Irish revolt against 
    the ʝʊdɛօ-masonic Brits.




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    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi

    Offline Cantarella

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    Re: What is Hell?
    « Reply #27 on: November 24, 2017, 04:50:38 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on November 24, 2017, 09:31:04 AM
    OF COURSE there are degrees of hell.  One of the Church's dogmatic definitions of EENS specifically states as much.  So it's the teaching of the Church that there are degrees of hell.  And that's why so many people have problems with the dogma EENS ... because they think of hell as this monolithic place where a kindly Jєωιѕн grandmother who gave her life for her kids is right next to Joe Stalin and suffering the same "tortures".  In some areas of hell, e.g. Limbo, there's actually perfect natural happiness ... and I am sure that there are places in hell where people suffer very little ... nor more than an average person might suffer in this life.  God is perfectly just and merciful.  Everybody fashions their own state of soul for eternity ... according to their desires.
    These are dogmatic definitions:

    Council of Lyons II (1274):

    Quote
    The souls of those who die in mortal sin or with original sin only, however, immediately descend to Hell, yet to be punished with different punishments.    

    Council of Florence, Decree for the Greeks (1439):

    Quote
    It is likewise defined that... the souls of those who depart in actual mortal sin or in original sin only, descend immediately into Hell but to undergo punishments of different kinds.      

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    Offline Kazimierz

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    Re: What is Hell?
    « Reply #28 on: November 25, 2017, 08:34:40 AM »
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    • Hell is a place much like New Jersey. (As seen on a t shirt)

    Now all levity aside, this Sunday's Epistle and Gospel give us much to contemplate regarding the Last Things.

    What I find truly monstrous is the modernist (and heretical) theologies of Karl Rahner and Hans von Balthasar, for when you get down to the nitty gritty, no matter what you do, you will end up in Heaven. A horrible perversion of the gift of free will from Our Loving Father.
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    Da pacem Domine in diebus nostris
    Qui non est alius
    Qui pugnet pro nobis
    Nisi  tu Deus noster

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: What is Hell?
    « Reply #29 on: November 25, 2017, 10:05:07 AM »
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    • Quote from: Cantarella on November 24, 2017, 04:50:38 PM
    These are dogmatic definitions:

    Council of Lyons II (1274):

    Council of Florence, Decree for the Greeks (1439):

    Thanks, Cantarella.  I didn't have these at my fingertips when I referred to them.
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