Catholic Info
Traditional Catholic Faith => General Discussion => Topic started by: trickster on July 02, 2014, 11:39:14 AM
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Honestly guys. I keep getting called a troll, so at least I deserve an explanation of what that is :)
Trickster
Bruce Ferguson
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A troll is a hairy ape-like man who lives under the bridge and is always trying to stop small children from crossing that bridge.
Now you know what a troll is.
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(http://fc02.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2013/013/2/0/do_not_feed_the_trolls_by_hashem37927-d4jag0p.png)
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Honestly guys. I keep getting called a troll, so at least I deserve an explanation of what that is :)
Trickster
Bruce Ferguson[/quote
I have been called that too. I usually get called that because I am willing to discuss controversial topics, and go against the grain with my opinions/beliefs. My opinions are considered unpopular by some groups of people and maybe even offensive. Usually when I express my opinions about a matter, they are backed by evidence and may even be the 100% truth. But because people would rather believe whatever it is they want to believe, I end up being called a troll because they don't like me. Basically, a troll is someone who goes around trying to get a reaction out of someone on the internet. It isn't so much that the troll is honest and truthful about what he/she writes on the internet, but the troll's objective is solely to stir people up with what he/she says.
In my case, that is not my goal. I might start topics that stir people up, but that is not my ultimate objective. My objective is to discuss controversial topics because I think they are important, and its a good opportunity for me to write what I truly believe on these matters. I always like comparing my beliefs with what other people say so that I can come that much more closer to the truth. If I think someone's argument is true then there are times where I have to change my own beliefs and side with theirs.
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I didn't even know what a troll was until I googled it. But with a name like trickster, you are asking to be classified as a troll before you even type, although I have no idea why you chose your name to be such. Possibly a name change would help you out?
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I didn't even know what a troll was until I googled it. But with a name like trickster, you are asking to be classified as a troll before you even type, although I have no idea why you chose your name to be such. Possibly a name change would help you out?
I charitably offered the same in another thread, Senza. Mr. Ferguson explained how / why he used the name and acknowledged it is troublesome here on a Catholic forum. I appreciate that he uses his given name.
FWIW, my assessment of troll includes two styles: either the person is a deliberate troublemaker, or unwittingly annoying. Both kinds reveal themselves, the first rather quickly. The second, more of a cross to bear - they don't necessarily deserve banning, more like a high maintenance forum member. They skirt the definition of troll oftentimes. I do not include new people to the forum in this, who are asking honest questions and engaging in robust debate (as long as there is no blasphemy or other insult to the Father).
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Troll ---> :ape:
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Honestly guys. I keep getting called a troll, so at least I deserve an explanation of what that is :)
Trickster
Bruce Ferguson
Masons are told to study the sagas as they reach a certain degree.
Royal Arch Masons are obsessed with bridges in fact they make pictures of their degrees as steps forming a bridge with Templar degrees on the other side.
Troll of course contains their signature 'twin' mark (their "two Johns" etc) & is associated with Norse mythology in the saga and a bridge!
Remember Holland WW2 failure in Arnhem against Tanks + 'key' Bridge?
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B.F.
I also know indians were used as radio comms men in WW2 as nαzιs couldn't decipher languages.
A number of Indians were early on made into freemasons too!
A freemason Indian saved a trooper officer freemason in 1800's from being scalped and shot by fellow injuns!
PS
Which Pope used to blatantly kiss the airport runway (APRON) as soon as he landed in a country?
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PED:
I do not include new people to the forum in this, who are asking honest questions and engaging in robust debate (as long as there is no blasphemy or other insult to the Father).
Yeah, like trans-dressing men wearing horns and pretending to be nuns. Surely no one on a trad Catholic forum would take that to be blasphemy. Just a bunch of close buddies having fun.
And, of course, the best way to deal with a pagan, Islam, or Protestant is to talk to them and learn what you are missing. The Catholic Church didn't get everything right, ya know?
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I was making a general statement about new Catholic members who ask honest questions. You may have been reading too much into my statement.
There are new and "old" members who do get into robust debates, but, for the record, I do not support ecuмenism in any way, shape, form. The Church cannot and should never budge an iota from Her teachings. If a heretic comes to Her (say, through this forum) then we should instruct them in Truth, as He commanded us to do, without compromise.
As to the specifics you noted, Lighthouse, I did see your post in the previous thread and commented accordingly. It is scandalous.
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Understood. :alcohol:
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I can name at lease one troll on this forum. Poche. He is not really liked
on other forums and would like to see him leave.
For example that ridiculous article he copied and pasted claiming that
Pope Pius XII supported the establishment of Israel.
How mad can you get.
-
Honestly guys. I keep getting called a troll, so at least I deserve an explanation of what that is :)
Trickster
Bruce Ferguson[/quote
I have been called that too. I usually get called that because I am willing to discuss controversial topics, and go against the grain with my opinions/beliefs. My opinions are considered unpopular by some groups of people and maybe even offensive. Usually when I express my opinions about a matter, they are backed by evidence and may even be the 100% truth. But because people would rather believe whatever it is they want to believe, I end up being called a troll because they don't like me. Basically, a troll is someone who goes around trying to get a reaction out of someone on the internet. It isn't so much that the troll is honest and truthful about what he/she writes on the internet, but the troll's objective is solely to stir people up with what he/she says.
In my case, that is not my goal. I might start topics that stir people up, but that is not my ultimate objective. My objective is to discuss controversial topics because I think they are important, and its a good opportunity for me to write what I truly believe on these matters. I always like comparing my beliefs with what other people say so that I can come that much more closer to the truth. If I think someone's argument is true then there are times where I have to change my own beliefs and side with theirs.
InfiniteFaith, nice to hear from a person who sees things in a familiar manner. I am not here to pass a checklist of my catholicism; I'm here to try and get a better understanding of the traditional catholic movement and then reflect on how this movement is in conversation with aboriginal peoples. I am getting some very good responses and no one has called me a troll since...so not sure if I have lost my badge :)
Trickster
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I didn't even know what a troll was until I googled it. But with a name like trickster, you are asking to be classified as a troll before you even type, although I have no idea why you chose your name to be such. Possibly a name change would help you out?
Well you are bang on and people have said so...but when I explain my reasons, people seem to be accepting of it.
In western culture the troll is associated with the devil I am told. In indigenous cultures (I am an aboriginal catholic) the trickster is an animal that changes forms for whatever reason, this change reminded me of conversion. In the Haida culture the raven is a trickster, in many American Southwest tribes, the coyote is a tricksters. Tricksters (which is an english word and looses meaning) are also healing and medicine people...so that is why I chose it long time ago and have used it consistently here and on Catholic Answers.
Anyways, thanks for responding to my question.
Bruce
trickster
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Troll ---> :ape:
Hi MyrnaM :)
bruce
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Honestly guys. I keep getting called a troll, so at least I deserve an explanation of what that is :)
Trickster
Bruce Ferguson
Masons are told to study the sagas as they reach a certain degree.
Royal Arch Masons are obsessed with bridges in fact they make pictures of their degrees as steps forming a bridge with Templar degrees on the other side.
Troll of course contains their signature 'twin' mark (their "two Johns" etc) & is associated with Norse mythology in the saga and a bridge!
Remember Holland WW2 failure in Arnhem against Tanks + 'key' Bridge?
TOTALLY lost me glaston :) Perhaps you can simplify for me?
trickster
bruce ferguson
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B.F.
I also know indians were used as radio comms men in WW2 as nαzιs couldn't decipher languages.
A number of Indians were early on made into freemasons too!
A freemason Indian saved a trooper officer freemason in 1800's from being scalped and shot by fellow injuns!
PS
Which Pope used to blatantly kiss the airport runway (APRON) as soon as he landed in a country?
AWesome Glaston. Yes I knew about the Navajo code talkers..your right. I am interested in your connecting our people with the Masons... i have never heard that before. Perhaps you could expand and/or refer me to some sources.
That is awesometh, thank you so much for that info.
In terms of the pope kissing .... I can only think of what many call an anti-pope, but since I am novus ordo, was it our beloved and now saint Pope JP II?
Bruce
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PED:
I do not include new people to the forum in this, who are asking honest questions and engaging in robust debate (as long as there is no blasphemy or other insult to the Father).
Yeah, like trans-dressing men wearing horns and pretending to be nuns. Surely no one on a trad Catholic forum would take that to be blasphemy. Just a bunch of close buddies having fun.
And, of course, the best way to deal with a pagan, Islam, or Protestant is to talk to them and learn what you are missing. The Catholic Church didn't get everything right, ya know?
Lighthouse, what is your point? Are you against novus ordo catholics talking to traditional catholics? We have the same history and heritage. I was baptized in 1957 and the last time i checked that was before the Vatican, i even recieved communion prior to the changes in the Vatican. Why would you separate yourself from me? I don't separate my brothers and sisters in the old order church (guess that is the opposite of new order church).
The best way to deal with a pagan, etc., you are absolutely right and that is to listen to them! The church of old did exactly that in the 1600s at the Salinas Missions in New Mexico as an example. The best tool for evangelization and to offer people the message of Our Lord Jesus is to put it in terms that are culturally and socially sensible. Talking to pagans, protestants and even novus ordo catholics is also about building trust which creates an openess and love to actuallly hear and understand.. and that is the point of conversion.
If I am misunderstanding your intent (i.e if you are just being sarcastic in a humourous way I apologize for my understanding)...but your comments are confusing. (and I thought I'm supposed to be the trickster :)
Bruce
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I was making a general statement about new Catholic members who ask honest questions. You may have been reading too much into my statement.
There are new and "old" members who do get into robust debates, but, for the record, I do not support ecuмenism in any way, shape, form. The Church cannot and should never budge an iota from Her teachings. If a heretic comes to Her (say, through this forum) then we should instruct them in Truth, as He commanded us to do, without compromise.
As to the specifics you noted, Lighthouse, I did see your post in the previous thread and commented accordingly. It is scandalous.
Thanks for those words PerEvangelicalDicta...With or without ecuмenism (which by the way is not compromise...the meetings with Benedict at Assisi were prayers said seperately, but respected quietly by each other)...that doesn't sound relativisitic to me. Ecuмenism is not about selling out; it is about understanding and from there respecting the choice of others and finding other common ways in which we can work together to further Our Father's will and Our Lord's directions. I don't see how ecuмenism in any way or from a budging of catholicism.
I support dialogue. Conversion sometimes comes indirectly by something a Buddhist may have said that answers a question that troubles our heart and somehow informs and issue we have been working on...just sometimes a different lens sees things that we can't see.
As an example, as an indigenous person I see things from an indigenous perspective that is sometimes balanced by the views of non-native people and I know the opposite is true...so talking to people who differ from us is good, and we remember that God created all of us so who are we to turn our back on God's work? JUst some thoughts.
Bruce
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I can name at lease one troll on this forum. Poche. He is not really liked
on other forums and would like to see him leave.
For example that ridiculous article he copied and pasted claiming that
Pope Pius XII supported the establishment of Israel.
How mad can you get.
I think Poche is one of our crosses to bear. But there may be a glimmer of hope for him--what other ardent NOer spends so much time with trads...
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I can name at lease one troll on this forum. Poche. He is not really liked
on other forums and would like to see him leave.
For example that ridiculous article he copied and pasted claiming that
Pope Pius XII supported the establishment of Israel.
How mad can you get.
I think Poche is one of our crosses to bear. But there may be a glimmer of hope for him--what other ardent NOer spends so much time with trads...
Hi OHCA, I am also Novus Ordo..haven't heard anything that would convince me tha that the post-Vatican II church is diabolic or whateer, in fact the more I hear, the more I question some of the thinking or assumptions....and questions about the Novus Ordo church precisely becasue of these postings...
I am finding that the discussion is more political than religious... identity politics seems to be really strong .... we lablel ourselves traditional and NO (and I include myself in this proces)....but I am finding that if I put the labels aside, I am coming across some remarkable wisdom...and that ecnourages me to revisit novus ordo thinking. I think this site is fantastic that way
I am working on a reflection (Traditional Catholicsm, Mission and Indigenous Communities) based on lecture given by Fr. Benedict Hughs (CMRI) and I think authentic reflection, honest answers are bearing fruit as I see this article (reflection) develope. I am trying to get it done by Friday, so I will post it then.
So Poche and me, all i need is one more N.O. and then we will be the infamous trio :)
Take care OCHA
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Trickster,
The Novus Ordo church follows Christ in word but has officially declared other religions to also be from God and also to contain the means of salvation. See Lumen Gentium 16 and almost all of the writings of John Paul II and the public statements of Pope Francis XVI. There are also the instances of post-Vatican II popes engaging in public worship with other religions (Assisi I, II, III and others) and there are previous popes who condemned this behavior for your everyday Catholic - much less a Pope - see Pope Pius IX's encyclical "Mortalium Animos")
Our Lord made it clear by saying that He was the Truth, the Way and the Light and that no one came to the Father except through Him. There are also dozens of quotes from the New Testament and Traditional Catholoc docuмents attesting to this belief. In fact, it is believed by Catholics (who embrace EENS) that there is no salvation outside of the Church. In short, it's a one way street. If you feel at this time in your spiritual development that "every body kinda has a grasp on the truth in their own way" then keep reading and studying. Pray on the issue. It's a one way street and not the Arizona heat which comes from all directions and goes in all directions.
Our Lord told the apostles that the god of the gentiles are devils, so what are we supposed to think when John Paul II writes of his respect for followers of these religions?
You're a bright guy, Bruce. You're well read and capable of thinking things through so if you say you see nothing to the contrary than I might think you're not playing straight with us. However, it could be that you've done very little reading on the topic so I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt.
Hey, study the issue as a complete agnostic. See if the pre-Vatican II church differs from the post-Vatican II church in it's "praxis" and in it's prayers and in the approach toward other religions. Then look at the sociological data differences between post- and pre- for church attendance, family size, marriage data, and views on religion.
While studying the issue, visit pre- and post- churches for Mass. Talk to the priest as someone who is seeking. Ask the questions while you are there.
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I can name at lease one troll on this forum. Poche. He is not really liked
on other forums and would like to see him leave.
For example that ridiculous article he copied and pasted claiming that
Pope Pius XII supported the establishment of Israel.
How mad can you get.
I think Poche is one of our crosses to bear. But there may be a glimmer of hope for him--what other ardent NOer spends so much time with trads...
So Poche and me, all i need is one more N.O. and then we will be the infamous trio :)
You should have recruited Crossbro before he went full-retard prot.
--Snarky Turd
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I can name at lease one troll on this forum. Poche. He is not really liked
on other forums and would like to see him leave.
For example that ridiculous article he copied and pasted claiming that
Pope Pius XII supported the establishment of Israel.
How mad can you get.
I think Poche is one of our crosses to bear. But there may be a glimmer of hope for him--what other ardent NOer spends so much time with trads...
Hi OHCA, I am also Novus Ordo..haven't heard anything that would convince me tha that the post-Vatican II church is diabolic or whateer. . .
"Pope" kissing filthy koran; fag masses; clown masses; "who am I to judge;" "proselytizing is solemn nonsense;" communion in the hand; global view that one religion is as good as another; watered-down warnings of hell - or no warnings - or hell doesn't exist--depending on the "presider;" etc.
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communion in the hand
There is nothing new under the sun.
The traditional masses of early Christians were Communion in the hand and domestic language.
Latin and Communion on the tongue came in during the middle ages, centuries after Jesus resurrection.
And Communion in the hand was not to be more reverent, it was to prevent abuse of the Host.
Get educated. You just basically claimed an early Christian practice as being diabolic.
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The traditional masses of early Christians were Communion in the hand and domestic language.
Latin and Communion on the tongue came in during the middle ages, centuries after Jesus resurrection.
61. The same reasoning holds in the case of some persons who are bent on the restoration of all the ancient rites and ceremonies indiscriminately. The liturgy of the early ages is most certainly worthy of all veneration. But ancient usage must not be esteemed more suitable and proper, either in its own right or in its significance for later times and new situations, on the simple ground that it carries the savor and aroma of antiquity. The more recent liturgical rites likewise deserve reverence and respect. They, too, owe their inspiration to the Holy Spirit, who assists the Church in every age even to the consummation of the world. They are equally the resources used by the majestic Spouse of Jesus Christ to promote and procure the sanctity of man.
63. Clearly no sincere Catholic can refuse to accept the formulation of Christian doctrine more recently elaborated and proclaimed as dogmas by the Church, under the inspiration and guidance of the Holy Spirit with abundant fruit for souls, because it pleases him to hark back to the old formulas. No more can any Catholic in his right senses repudiate existing legislation of the Church to revert to prescriptions based on the earliest sources of canon law. Just as obviously unwise and mistaken is the zeal of one who in matters liturgical would go back to the rites and usage of antiquity, discarding the new patterns introduced by disposition of divine Providence to meet the changes of circuмstances and situation.
Pope Pius XII, Mediator Dei
And Communion in the hand was not to be more reverent, it was to prevent abuse of the Host.
Is this a typo?
Communion in the hand prevents abuse of the Host?
Explain, please.
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I think Poche is one of our crosses to bear.
What is the "our" stuff- who exactly do you think is on "your" side.
I think you are in a class of your own.
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Is this a typo?
Yes, it was a typo and should have read 'Communion on the tongue".
Thank you for pointing out the error.
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Is this a typo?
Yes, it was a typo and should have read 'Communion on the tongue".
Thank you for pointing out the error.
No problem, and I'm glad I didn't rush to judgment on that.
But I fail to see how Communion on the tongue is not more reverent than Communion in the hand.
I eat potato chips with my hands; nobody places them - or any other foodstuff - directly on my tongue.
It seems to me that receiving the Blessed Sacrament on the tongue from the consecrated hands of a priest, being so wholly removed from the manner in which we eat ordinary food, is objectively more reverent than Communion in the hand, as much as kissing the ring of a bishop is objectively more reverent than shaking his hand.
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I think Poche is one of our crosses to bear.
What is the "our" stuff- who exactly do you think is on "your" side.
I think you are in a class of your own.
I think Crossbro is one of our crosses to bear.
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I think Poche is one of our crosses to bear.
What is the "our" stuff- who exactly do you think is on "your" side.
I think you are in a class of your own.
I think Crossbro is one of our crosses to bear.
:roll-laugh2:
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Trickster,
The Novus Ordo church follows Christ in word but has officially declared other religions to also be from God and also to contain the means of salvation. See Lumen Gentium 16 and almost all of the writings of John Paul II and the public statements of Pope Francis XVI. There are also the instances of post-Vatican II popes engaging in public worship with other religions (Assisi I, II, III and others) and there are previous popes who condemned this behavior for your everyday Catholic - much less a Pope - see Pope Pius IX's encyclical "Mortalium Animos")
Our Lord made it clear by saying that He was the Truth, the Way and the Light and that no one came to the Father except through Him. There are also dozens of quotes from the New Testament and Traditional Catholoc docuмents attesting to this belief. In fact, it is believed by Catholics (who embrace EENS) that there is no salvation outside of the Church. In short, it's a one way street. If you feel at this time in your spiritual development that "every body kinda has a grasp on the truth in their own way" then keep reading and studying. Pray on the issue. It's a one way street and not the Arizona heat which comes from all directions and goes in all directions.
Our Lord told the apostles that the god of the gentiles are devils, so what are we supposed to think when John Paul II writes of his respect for followers of these religions?
You're a bright guy, Bruce. You're well read and capable of thinking things through so if you say you see nothing to the contrary than I might think you're not playing straight with us. However, it could be that you've done very little reading on the topic so I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt.
Hey, study the issue as a complete agnostic. See if the pre-Vatican II church differs from the post-Vatican II church in it's "praxis" and in it's prayers and in the approach toward other religions. Then look at the sociological data differences between post- and pre- for church attendance, family size, marriage data, and views on religion.
While studying the issue, visit pre- and post- churches for Mass. Talk to the priest as someone who is seeking. Ask the questions while you are there.
Hello Captain! I am not sure if I responded to this posting, so I will do now. It's interesting what you said because I am writing a reflection paper on a lecture given by Fr. Benedict Hughs CMRI, where he talks about why traditionalists believe Vatican itself is wrong and heresy. He covers seven areas in which the council is wrong and the basis for which to reject the novus ordo church.
I am writing the paper as I said, from the perspective of looking at what he is saying in relation to how traditional catholics can work with indigenous peoples in terms of conversion, etc. which is missing in the novus ordo and I find that the novus ordo is very surficial in terms of developing relationships with the Native AMerican and other indigenous peoples ... and this I have been feeling since 2005 or so...
I am aware of Assisi and Lumen Gentium having taken a few theology courses on the subject, but the interesting thing is that we did not cover how the teaching of Vatican have radically changed the chruch and that has to be a cause of concern for anyone, so I am a work in progress :cheers:
And on one final note, there is an SSPX parish in our Archdiocese and I have already connnected with the priest there who has offered to answer any questions I have, and I will be sending him a copy of my reflection paper....when I get it done, I will post the link on this forum so you will be able to look at it... but since it is my first paper, there are a lot of challenges to my thinking, to the paradigms that we learned, but that is a good thing...
Take care.
Bruce
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B.F.
I also know indians were used as radio comms men in WW2 as nαzιs couldn't decipher languages.
A number of Indians were early on made into freemasons too!
A freemason Indian saved a trooper officer freemason in 1800's from being scalped and shot by fellow injuns!
PS
Which Pope used to blatantly kiss the airport runway (APRON) as soon as he landed in a country?
Yes, "wind-talkers" as the movie is named....awesome story! I wasn't aware that the freemasons accepted indigenous peoples...do you have a reference for me, that is extremely interesting. I am happy that the freemason was spared the scalping...but did you know that was not our peoples practice, that was introduced by the Dutch, and we took a liking to it :) :cheers:
Thank you glaston...you are the first to let me know of the relationship between indigenous peoples and freemason..wasn't aware at all.
Bruce
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I can name at lease one troll on this forum. Poche. He is not really liked
on other forums and would like to see him leave.
For example that ridiculous article he copied and pasted claiming that
Pope Pius XII supported the establishment of Israel.
How mad can you get.
I think Poche is one of our crosses to bear. But there may be a glimmer of hope for him--what other ardent NOer spends so much time with trads...
Hi OHCA, I am also Novus Ordo..haven't heard anything that would convince me tha that the post-Vatican II church is diabolic or whateer. . .
"Pope" kissing filthy koran; fag masses; clown masses; "who am I to judge;" "proselytizing is solemn nonsense;" communion in the hand; global view that one religion is as good as another; watered-down warnings of hell - or no warnings - or hell doesn't exist--depending on the "presider;" etc.
Wow, a very ignorant statement. How do you propose to be proclaiming the kerygma, the good news of Jesus, how do you propose to deliver his gospel to the ends of the earth, when you start out with ignorance. Your theology may be great, but your delivery sir, lacks a bit of charity.
Bruce
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The traditional masses of early Christians were Communion in the hand and domestic language.
Latin and Communion on the tongue came in during the middle ages, centuries after Jesus resurrection.
61. The same reasoning holds in the case of some persons who are bent on the restoration of all the ancient rites and ceremonies indiscriminately. The liturgy of the early ages is most certainly worthy of all veneration. But ancient usage must not be esteemed more suitable and proper, either in its own right or in its significance for later times and new situations, on the simple ground that it carries the savor and aroma of antiquity. The more recent liturgical rites likewise deserve reverence and respect. They, too, owe their inspiration to the Holy Spirit, who assists the Church in every age even to the consummation of the world. They are equally the resources used by the majestic Spouse of Jesus Christ to promote and procure the sanctity of man.
63. Clearly no sincere Catholic can refuse to accept the formulation of Christian doctrine more recently elaborated and proclaimed as dogmas by the Church, under the inspiration and guidance of the Holy Spirit with abundant fruit for souls, because it pleases him to hark back to the old formulas. No more can any Catholic in his right senses repudiate existing legislation of the Church to revert to prescriptions based on the earliest sources of canon law. Just as obviously unwise and mistaken is the zeal of one who in matters liturgical would go back to the rites and usage of antiquity, discarding the new patterns introduced by disposition of divine Providence to meet the changes of circuмstances and situation.
Pope Pius XII, Mediator Dei
BTNYC...when I read those two beautiful passages from Mediator Del, I almost hear Pope Pius XII talking to traditional catholics who walk away from the novus ordo mass....I see the passages as saying that whatever is inspired by the Holy Spirit, defined by the church (bound by the church), is valid. All rites in all times deserve veneration. The novus ordo mass fits perfectly within this popes message...
Having said that, I have not read those two passages in the context of the entire docuмent which could lead to another conclusion.
Bruce
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I think Poche is one of our crosses to bear.
What is the "our" stuff- who exactly do you think is on "your" side.
I think you are in a class of your own.
And the discussion of who's in the club and who isn't is rather childish in my perspective. I don't agree with everyone, and with my ratings I know the majority disagree with me.. but that is not what these forums are about, they are about learning, being objective, being authentic and growing together.
Bruce
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I think Poche is one of our crosses to bear.
What is the "our" stuff- who exactly do you think is on "your" side.
I think you are in a class of your own.
And the discussion of who's in the club and who isn't is rather childish in my perspective. I don't agree with everyone, and with my ratings I know the majority disagree with me.. but that is not what these forums are about, they are about learning, being objective, being authentic and growing together.
Bruce
You would be right if these guys were being exclusionary but someone facetiously mentioned that an amiable guy like Poche is "our" cross to bear.
Now that I have given it twenty more seconds worth of thought, maybe Crossbro was being "exclusionary" in tone if not in intent.
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I can name at lease one troll on this forum. Poche. He is not really liked
on other forums and would like to see him leave.
For example that ridiculous article he copied and pasted claiming that
Pope Pius XII supported the establishment of Israel.
How mad can you get.
I think Poche is one of our crosses to bear. But there may be a glimmer of hope for him--what other ardent NOer spends so much time with trads...
Hi OHCA, I am also Novus Ordo..haven't heard anything that would convince me tha that the post-Vatican II church is diabolic or whateer. . .
"Pope" kissing filthy koran; fag masses; clown masses; "who am I to judge;" "proselytizing is solemn nonsense;" communion in the hand; global view that one religion is as good as another; watered-down warnings of hell - or no warnings - or hell doesn't exist--depending on the "presider;" etc.
Wow, a very ignorant statement. How do you propose to be proclaiming the kerygma, the good news of Jesus, how do you propose to deliver his gospel to the ends of the earth, when you start out with ignorance. Your theology may be great, but your delivery sir, lacks a bit of charity.
Bruce
The road to hell is sugar-coated with false "charity." Point to the "ignorance" in my statement. "Ignorant" is a favorite label of modernists.
-
The traditional masses of early Christians were Communion in the hand and domestic language.
Latin and Communion on the tongue came in during the middle ages, centuries after Jesus resurrection.
61. The same reasoning holds in the case of some persons who are bent on the restoration of all the ancient rites and ceremonies indiscriminately. The liturgy of the early ages is most certainly worthy of all veneration. But ancient usage must not be esteemed more suitable and proper, either in its own right or in its significance for later times and new situations, on the simple ground that it carries the savor and aroma of antiquity. The more recent liturgical rites likewise deserve reverence and respect. They, too, owe their inspiration to the Holy Spirit, who assists the Church in every age even to the consummation of the world. They are equally the resources used by the majestic Spouse of Jesus Christ to promote and procure the sanctity of man.
63. Clearly no sincere Catholic can refuse to accept the formulation of Christian doctrine more recently elaborated and proclaimed as dogmas by the Church, under the inspiration and guidance of the Holy Spirit with abundant fruit for souls, because it pleases him to hark back to the old formulas. No more can any Catholic in his right senses repudiate existing legislation of the Church to revert to prescriptions based on the earliest sources of canon law. Just as obviously unwise and mistaken is the zeal of one who in matters liturgical would go back to the rites and usage of antiquity, discarding the new patterns introduced by disposition of divine Providence to meet the changes of circuмstances and situation.
Pope Pius XII, Mediator Dei
BTNYC...when I read those two beautiful passages from Mediator Del, I almost hear Pope Pius XII talking to traditional catholics who walk away from the novus ordo mass....I see the passages as saying that whatever is inspired by the Holy Spirit, defined by the church (bound by the church), is valid. All rites in all times deserve veneration. The novus ordo mass fits perfectly within this popes message...
Having said that, I have not read those two passages in the context of the entire docuмent which could lead to another conclusion.
Bruce
How nice that you call Mediator Dei "beautiful." Why that's apt to make a Traditionalist troglodyte like me all the more willing to hear you out in your impassioned defense of the Novus Ordo.
I'll provide some context for you: Pope Pius XII is arguing against the kind of "liturgical primitivism" that was in vogue in his day - and went on to inform the liturgical wreckovations of the Council, producing what Pope Benedict XVI admitted to be a "banal on-the-spot fabrication" in place of the organic development of liturgy that had ever been the rule in the Church.
Does it discomfit you at all, Trickster, that the Novus Ordo was the brainchild of the Freemason Hannibal (lit. "Favor of Baal") Bugnini? Does it bother you that the Novus Ordo - irrespective of questions of mere "validity" - has been the occasion of innumerable liturgical abuses and blasphemies - "clown Masses," "Flamenco Masses," "puppet Masses" and the like - that were unheard of and impossible when the Mass of Ages was the only Mass of the Roman Rite? Does it bother you that the Catholicity and sacrificial character of the Mass was cavalierly tossed aside in favor of a bland, bare boned ecuмenical ceremony that would be inoffensive to Protestants?
These questions are largely rhetorical. Indeed, I hardly expect someone who delights in the blasphemous atrocities committed in Assisi to be the least bit discomfited by the things listed above.
But speaking of beautiful papal words:
APOSTOLIC CONSTITUTION
QUO PRIMUM
Pope St. Pius V - July 14, 1570
From the very first, upon Our elevation to the chief Apostleship, We gladly turned our mind and energies and directed all out thoughts to those matters which concerned the preservation of a pure liturgy, and We strove with God's help, by every means in our power, to accomplish this purpose. For, besides other decrees of the sacred Council of Trent, there were stipulations for Us to revise and re-edit the sacred books: the Catechism, the Missal and the Breviary. With the Catechism published for the instruction of the faithful, by God's help, and the Breviary thoroughly revised for the worthy praise of God, in order that the Missal and Breviary may be in perfect harmony, as fitting and proper - for its most becoming that there be in the Church only one appropriate manner of reciting the Psalms and only one rite for the celebration of Mass - We deemed it necessary to give our immediate attention to what still remained to be done, viz, the re-editing of the Missal as soon as possible.
Hence, We decided to entrust this work to learned men of our selection. They very carefully collated all their work with the ancient codices in Our Vatican Library and with reliable, preserved or emended codices from elsewhere. Besides this, these men consulted the works of ancient and approved authors concerning the same sacred rites; and thus they have restored the Missal itself to the original form and rite of the holy Fathers. When this work has been gone over numerous times and further emended, after serious study and reflection, We commanded that the finished product be printed and published as soon as possible, so that all might enjoy the fruits of this labor; and thus, priests would know which prayers to use and which rites and ceremonies they were required to observe from now on in the celebration of Masses.
Let all everywhere adopt and observe what has been handed down by the Holy Roman Church, the Mother and Teacher of the other churches, and let Masses not be sung or read according to any other formula than that of this Missal published by Us. This ordinance applies henceforth, now, and forever, throughout all the provinces of the Christian world, to all patriarchs, cathedral churches, collegiate and parish churches, be they secular or religious, both of men and of women - even of military orders - and of churches or chapels without a specific congregation in which conventual Masses are sung aloud in choir or read privately in accord with the rites and customs of the Roman Church. This Missal is to be used by all churches, even by those which in their authorization are made exempt, whether by Apostolic indult, custom, or privilege, or even if by oath or official confirmation of the Holy See, or have their rights and faculties guaranteed to them by any other manner whatsoever.
This new rite alone is to be used unless approval of the practice of saying Mass differently was given at the very time of the institution and confirmation of the church by Apostolic See at least 200 years ago, or unless there has prevailed a custom of a similar kind which has been continuously followed for a period of not less than 200 years, in which most cases We in no wise rescind their above-mentioned prerogative or custom. However, if this Missal, which we have seen fit to publish, be more agreeable to these latter, We grant them permission to celebrate Mass according to its rite, provided they have the consent of their bishop or prelate or of their whole Chapter, everything else to the contrary notwithstanding.
All other of the churches referred to above, however, are hereby denied the use of other missals, which are to be discontinued entirely and absolutely; whereas, by this present Constitution, which will be valid henceforth, now, and forever, We order and enjoin that nothing must be added to Our recently published Missal, nothing omitted from it, nor anything whatsoever be changed within it under the penalty of Our displeasure.
We specifically command each and every patriarch, administrator, and all other persons or whatever ecclesiastical dignity they may be, be they even cardinals of the Holy Roman Church, or possessed of any other rank or pre-eminence, and We order them in virtue of holy obedience to chant or to read the Mass according to the rite and manner and norm herewith laid down by Us and, hereafter, to discontinue and completely discard all other rubrics and rites of other missals, however ancient, which they have customarily followed; and they must not in celebrating Mass presume to introduce any ceremonies or recite any prayers other than those contained in this Missal.
Furthermore, by these presents [this law], in virtue of Our Apostolic authority, We grant and concede in perpetuity that, for the chanting or reading of the Mass in any church whatsoever, this Missal is hereafter to be followed absolutely, without any scruple of conscience or fear of incurring any penalty, judgment, or censure, and may freely and lawfully be used. Nor are superiors, administrators, canons, chaplains, and other secular priests, or religious, of whatever title designated, obliged to celebrate the Mass otherwise than as enjoined by Us. We likewise declare and ordain that no one whosoever is forced or coerced to alter this Missal, and that this present docuмent cannot be revoked or modified, but remain always valid and retain its full force notwithstanding the previous constitutions and decrees of the Holy See, as well as any general or special constitutions or edicts of provincial or synodal councils, and notwithstanding the practice and custom of the aforesaid churches, established by long and immemorial prescription - except, however, if more than two hundred years' standing.
It is Our will, therefore, and by the same authority, We decree that, after We publish this constitution and the edition of the Missal, the priests of the Roman Curia are, after thirty days, obliged to chant or read the Mass according to it; all others south of the Alps, after three months; and those beyond the Alps either within six months or whenever the Missal is available for sale. Wherefore, in order that the Missal be preserved incorrupt throughout the whole world and kept free of flaws and errors, the penalty for nonobservance for printers, whether mediately or immediately subject to Our dominion, and that of the Holy Roman Church, will be the forfeiting of their books and a fine of one hundred gold ducats, payable ipso facto to the Apostolic Treasury. Further, as for those located in other parts of the world, the penalty is excommunication latae sententiae, and such other penalties as may in Our judgment be imposed; and We decree by this law that they must not dare or presume either to print or to publish or to sell, or in any way to accept books of this nature without Our approval and consent, or without the express consent of the Apostolic Commissaries of those places, who will be appointed by Us. Said printer must receive a standard Missal and agree faithfully with it and in no wise vary from the Roman Missal of the large type (secundum magnum impressionem).
Accordingly, since it would be difficult for this present pronouncement to be sent to all parts of the Christian world and simultaneously come to light everywhere, We direct that it be, as usual, posted and published at the doors of the Basilica of the Prince of the Apostles, also at the Apostolic Chancery, and on the street at Campo Flora; furthermore, We direct that printed copies of this same edict signed by a notary public and made official by an ecclesiastical dignitary possess the same indubitable validity everywhere and in every nation, as if Our manuscript were shown there. Therefore, no one whosoever is permitted to alter this notice of Our permission, statute, ordinance, command, precept, grant, indult, declaration, will, decree, and prohibition. Should know that he will incur the wrath of Almighty God and of the Blessed Apostles Peter and Paul.
Given at St. Peter's in the year of the Lord's Incarnation, 1570, on the 14th of July of the Fifth year of Our Pontificate.
-
:dancing:
I can name at lease one troll on this forum. Poche. He is not really liked
on other forums and would like to see him leave.
For example that ridiculous article he copied and pasted claiming that
Pope Pius XII supported the establishment of Israel.
How mad can you get.
I thought Poche was a woman.
-
B.F.
I also know indians were used as radio comms men in WW2 as nαzιs couldn't decipher languages.
A number of Indians were early on made into freemasons too!
A freemason Indian saved a trooper officer freemason in 1800's from being scalped and shot by fellow injuns!
PS
Which Pope used to blatantly kiss the airport runway (APRON) as soon as he landed in a country?
It could be that he was afraid of flying and was glad to touch solid ground.
-
communion in the hand
There is nothing new under the sun.
The traditional masses of early Christians were Communion in the hand and domestic language.
Latin and Communion on the tongue came in during the middle ages, centuries after Jesus resurrection.
And Communion in the hand was not to be more reverent, it was to prevent abuse of the Host.
Get educated. You just basically claimed an early Christian practice as being diabolic.
With the original communion in the hand the practice was to recieve in the right hand and to directly consume into the mouth, not the practice that is in use today.
-
B.F.
I also know indians were used as radio comms men in WW2 as nαzιs couldn't decipher languages.
A number of Indians were early on made into freemasons too!
A freemason Indian saved a trooper officer freemason in 1800's from being scalped and shot by fellow injuns!
PS
Which Pope used to blatantly kiss the airport runway (APRON) as soon as he landed in a country?
Yes, "wind-talkers" as the movie is named....awesome story! I wasn't aware that the freemasons accepted indigenous peoples...do you have a reference for me, that is extremely interesting. I am happy that the freemason was spared the scalping...but did you know that was not our peoples practice, that was introduced by the Dutch, and we took a liking to it :) :cheers:
Thank you glaston...you are the first to let me know of the relationship between indigenous peoples and freemason..wasn't aware at all.
Bruce
I heard that at Custers l;ast stand all of the bodies of the American soldiers were mutilated except one. This one was a Catholic who was wearing a brown scapular.
-
Wow, your going to have to give me time to sift through all of that material. Thank you.
Bruce
-
I can name at lease one troll on this forum. Poche. He is not really liked
on other forums and would like to see him leave.
For example that ridiculous article he copied and pasted claiming that
Pope Pius XII supported the establishment of Israel.
How mad can you get.
I think Poche is one of our crosses to bear. But there may be a glimmer of hope for him--what other ardent NOer spends so much time with trads...
Hi OHCA, I am also Novus Ordo..haven't heard anything that would convince me tha that the post-Vatican II church is diabolic or whateer. . .
"Pope" kissing filthy koran; fag masses; clown masses; "who am I to judge;" "proselytizing is solemn nonsense;" communion in the hand; global view that one religion is as good as another; watered-down warnings of hell - or no warnings - or hell doesn't exist--depending on the "presider;" etc.
Wow, a very ignorant statement. How do you propose to be proclaiming the kerygma, the good news of Jesus, how do you propose to deliver his gospel to the ends of the earth, when you start out with ignorance. Your theology may be great, but your delivery sir, lacks a bit of charity.
Bruce
The road to hell is sugar-coated with false "charity." Point to the "ignorance" in my statement. "Ignorant" is a favorite label of modernists.
I think the ignorance is not so much in what you say because there is an element of legitimacy to all you say. The ignorance is that you hide behind a narrow interpretation that you label as not sugar coated and then you loose people by alienating them.
Now, my sense is that when one chooses words that alienate people, and create the environment for people to reject your messsage, then you are guilty of discouraging them to seek the truth. You have alienated Muslem people, the GLBT community, the novus ordo community really disservices your central message of an authentic message about hell. And if you discourage people from seriously considering hell as a reality, then you are an accomplice to the devil by creating the situation through hurting people unnecessarily
In addition, you close communication between novus ordo people who consider traditional one's the "crazies" and "extremists" in Catholicism and one creates division, not conversation and learning together...that is why I say that while you may have very strong points, how effective are you (when you alienate people) in doing your part to spread the gospel to all parts of the earth (which include gαy people, Muslem people, etc.)
Bruce
-
I think Poche is one of our crosses to bear.
What is the "our" stuff- who exactly do you think is on "your" side.
I think you are in a class of your own.
And the discussion of who's in the club and who isn't is rather childish in my perspective. I don't agree with everyone, and with my ratings I know the majority disagree with me.. but that is not what these forums are about, they are about learning, being objective, being authentic and growing together.
Bruce
You would be right if these guys were being exclusionary but someone facetiously mentioned that an amiable guy like Poche is "our" cross to bear.
Now that I have given it twenty more seconds worth of thought, maybe Crossbro was being "exclusionary" in tone if not in intent.
Those are good points. I wonder though if on a CAtholic forum there should be any references to trolls. Since we don't know the heart of one who may fit the definition of trolling I think Jesus' advice of turning the other cheek makes sense. Loving people to death is a good thing, so I take everyone serious and try to respond the best way I can in a manner that is respectful and to the point. We have to beleive that our taking the time to answer a question or be open to a poster rather than labelling him or her as a troll is the more authentic action fof Catholics to take. Does that make any sense to you? Feedback is always appreciated Captain.
Bruce
-
communion in the hand
There is nothing new under the sun.
The traditional masses of early Christians were Communion in the hand and domestic language.
Latin and Communion on the tongue came in during the middle ages, centuries after Jesus resurrection.
And Communion in the hand was not to be more reverent, it was to prevent abuse of the Host.
Get educated. You just basically claimed an early Christian practice as being diabolic.
With the original communion in the hand the practice was to recieve in the right hand and to directly consume into the mouth, not the practice that is in use today.
I agree with you on the original teachings as I remember when communion in the hand was received but what practices in our post-council church are you talking about today? Do you see abuses in how we are receiving communion in the handS?
I am not seeing that in our dioceses, but our diocese has fortunately or unfortunately (depending upon your perspective) been conservative
Bruce
-
B.F.
I also know indians were used as radio comms men in WW2 as nαzιs couldn't decipher languages.
A number of Indians were early on made into freemasons too!
A freemason Indian saved a trooper officer freemason in 1800's from being scalped and shot by fellow injuns!
PS
Which Pope used to blatantly kiss the airport runway (APRON) as soon as he landed in a country?
Yes, "wind-talkers" as the movie is named....awesome story! I wasn't aware that the freemasons accepted indigenous peoples...do you have a reference for me, that is extremely interesting. I am happy that the freemason was spared the scalping...but did you know that was not our peoples practice, that was introduced by the Dutch, and we took a liking to it :) :cheers:
Thank you glaston...you are the first to let me know of the relationship between indigenous peoples and freemason..wasn't aware at all.
Bruce
I heard that at Custers l;ast stand all of the bodies of the American soldiers were mutilated except one. This one was a Catholic who was wearing a brown scapular.
Very interesting indeed, do you by chance have any sources on this? That would be extremely interesting to me.. cause it would tie into my interest in the conversation between indigenous peoples and the church. The Catholic Church had done a lot of work as missionaries and perhaps that would explain the respect for the scapular. Native people generally don't want to disrespect the sacred as that would definitely be bad medicine for them...and when I participated with the Dakota Sioux in their SunDance that sense of the sacred has carrried over the generations.
Bruce
-
communion in the hand
There is nothing new under the sun.
The traditional masses of early Christians were Communion in the hand and domestic language.
Latin and Communion on the tongue came in during the middle ages, centuries after Jesus resurrection.
And Communion in the hand was not to be more reverent, it was to prevent abuse of the Host.
Get educated. You just basically claimed an early Christian practice as being diabolic.
With the original communion in the hand the practice was to recieve in the right hand and to directly consume into the mouth, not the practice that is in use today.
I agree with you on the original teachings as I remember when communion in the hand was received but what practices in our post-council church are you talking about today? Do you see abuses in how we are receiving communion in the handS?
I am not seeing that in our dioceses, but our diocese has fortunately or unfortunately (depending upon your perspective) been conservative
Bruce
It is not a question of teaching it is a quesetion of discipline and practice.
Originally the practiccw was to place the host in the hand. And the recipient would place the host in their mouth.
Now in the "restoration" it is place host in the hand and the recipient will take the host in their other hand and place it in their mouth.
-
B.F.
I also know indians were used as radio comms men in WW2 as nαzιs couldn't decipher languages.
A number of Indians were early on made into freemasons too!
A freemason Indian saved a trooper officer freemason in 1800's from being scalped and shot by fellow injuns!
PS
Which Pope used to blatantly kiss the airport runway (APRON) as soon as he landed in a country?
Yes, "wind-talkers" as the movie is named....awesome story! I wasn't aware that the freemasons accepted indigenous peoples...do you have a reference for me, that is extremely interesting. I am happy that the freemason was spared the scalping...but did you know that was not our peoples practice, that was introduced by the Dutch, and we took a liking to it :) :cheers:
Thank you glaston...you are the first to let me know of the relationship between indigenous peoples and freemason..wasn't aware at all.
Bruce
I heard that at Custers l;ast stand all of the bodies of the American soldiers were mutilated except one. This one was a Catholic who was wearing a brown scapular.
Very interesting indeed, do you by chance have any sources on this? That would be extremely interesting to me.. cause it would tie into my interest in the conversation between indigenous peoples and the church. The Catholic Church had done a lot of work as missionaries and perhaps that would explain the respect for the scapular. Native people generally don't want to disrespect the sacred as that would definitely be bad medicine for them...and when I participated with the Dakota Sioux in their SunDance that sense of the sacred has carrried over the generations.
Bruce
Can anything as simple as a piece of cloth worn as a statement of faith in a promise be this powerful? Certainly! Its this very simplicity si what gives the Scapular its universal appeal. Just wearing it is a prayer, a sign of faith in God, of hope in His mercy, of love for all the Truth He deposited in the Catholic Church. Even non-Christians have been known to respect it, like the black slaves who were ministered to by St. Peter Claver, many of whom were converted to the faith. But one of the most remarkable examples of the respect shown by non-Christians toward the scapular was recorded by the people who inspected the carnage left in the wake of Custer's Last Stand at the battle of the Little Big Horn.
The body of Colonel Keogh, an Irishman of deep Catholic faith, was found propped against a tree. His shirt had been torn open and there, neatly arranged on his breast, was the Brown Scapular of Our Lady of Mount Carmel. The news correspondent who reported this discovery for L'Univers, report that, ". . .Without a doubt the Sacred Badge awakened recollections of the teachings of some devoted missionary; one could see that several of the savages had assisted in bearing the body of an enemy, only a few moments before an object of detestation, to a sheltered spot; there placing it in a reclining position, the head leaning against a tree, carefully arranging the Badge so loved by the deceased upon his breast . . ."
http://catholicplanet.com/articles/article24.htm
-
communion in the hand
There is nothing new under the sun.
The traditional masses of early Christians were Communion in the hand and domestic language.
Latin and Communion on the tongue came in during the middle ages, centuries after Jesus resurrection.
And Communion in the hand was not to be more reverent, it was to prevent abuse of the Host.
Get educated. You just basically claimed an early Christian practice as being diabolic.
With the original communion in the hand the practice was to recieve in the right hand and to directly consume into the mouth, not the practice that is in use today.
I agree with you on the original teachings as I remember when communion in the hand was received but what practices in our post-council church are you talking about today? Do you see abuses in how we are receiving communion in the handS?
I am not seeing that in our dioceses, but our diocese has fortunately or unfortunately (depending upon your perspective) been conservative
Bruce
It is not a question of teaching it is a quesetion of discipline and practice.
Originally the practiccw was to place the host in the hand. And the recipient would place the host in their mouth.
Now in the "restoration" it is place host in the hand and the recipient will take the host in their other hand and place it in their mouth.
Ah, I see what you are saying and that makes sense. I also take communion in the hand the wrong way as well. I think the restoration way is better because for me it allows me not to drop the host and therefore desecrate the Lord unintentionally.
I have no problem with the restoration way, do you have concerns about this practice as I see it as a common sense thing.
Bruce
-
B.F.
I also know indians were used as radio comms men in WW2 as nαzιs couldn't decipher languages.
A number of Indians were early on made into freemasons too!
A freemason Indian saved a trooper officer freemason in 1800's from being scalped and shot by fellow injuns!
PS
Which Pope used to blatantly kiss the airport runway (APRON) as soon as he landed in a country?
Yes, "wind-talkers" as the movie is named....awesome story! I wasn't aware that the freemasons accepted indigenous peoples...do you have a reference for me, that is extremely interesting. I am happy that the freemason was spared the scalping...but did you know that was not our peoples practice, that was introduced by the Dutch, and we took a liking to it :) :cheers:
Thank you glaston...you are the first to let me know of the relationship between indigenous peoples and freemason..wasn't aware at all.
Bruce
I heard that at Custers l;ast stand all of the bodies of the American soldiers were mutilated except one. This one was a Catholic who was wearing a brown scapular.
Very interesting indeed, do you by chance have any sources on this? That would be extremely interesting to me.. cause it would tie into my interest in the conversation between indigenous peoples and the church. The Catholic Church had done a lot of work as missionaries and perhaps that would explain the respect for the scapular. Native people generally don't want to disrespect the sacred as that would definitely be bad medicine for them...and when I participated with the Dakota Sioux in their SunDance that sense of the sacred has carrried over the generations.
Bruce
Can anything as simple as a piece of cloth worn as a statement of faith in a promise be this powerful? Certainly! Its this very simplicity si what gives the Scapular its universal appeal. Just wearing it is a prayer, a sign of faith in God, of hope in His mercy, of love for all the Truth He deposited in the Catholic Church. Even non-Christians have been known to respect it, like the black slaves who were ministered to by St. Peter Claver, many of whom were converted to the faith. But one of the most remarkable examples of the respect shown by non-Christians toward the scapular was recorded by the people who inspected the carnage left in the wake of Custer's Last Stand at the battle of the Little Big Horn.
The body of Colonel Keogh, an Irishman of deep Catholic faith, was found propped against a tree. His shirt had been torn open and there, neatly arranged on his breast, was the Brown Scapular of Our Lady of Mount Carmel. The news correspondent who reported this discovery for L'Univers, report that, ". . .Without a doubt the Sacred Badge awakened recollections of the teachings of some devoted missionary; one could see that several of the savages had assisted in bearing the body of an enemy, only a few moments before an object of detestation, to a sheltered spot; there placing it in a reclining position, the head leaning against a tree, carefully arranging the Badge so loved by the deceased upon his breast . . ."
http://catholicplanet.com/articles/article24.htm
Ah, that is awesome reference to historical and verifiable fact. I thought - like I said in my earlier post on this - that the reaction of our Lakota Sioux brothers would of had something to do with missionaries and the Lakota sense of good and bad medicines. Catholic Planet is also a very reliable source -albeit - quite conservative for me. I love the music section of Catholic Planet.
Thanks again Poche.
Bruce
-
B.F.
I also know indians were used as radio comms men in WW2 as nαzιs couldn't decipher languages.
A number of Indians were early on made into freemasons too!
A freemason Indian saved a trooper officer freemason in 1800's from being scalped and shot by fellow injuns!
PS
Which Pope used to blatantly kiss the airport runway (APRON) as soon as he landed in a country?
Yes, "wind-talkers" as the movie is named....awesome story! I wasn't aware that the freemasons accepted indigenous peoples...do you have a reference for me, that is extremely interesting. I am happy that the freemason was spared the scalping...but did you know that was not our peoples practice, that was introduced by the Dutch, and we took a liking to it :) :cheers:
Thank you glaston...you are the first to let me know of the relationship between indigenous peoples and freemason..wasn't aware at all.
Bruce
I heard that at Custers l;ast stand all of the bodies of the American soldiers were mutilated except one. This one was a Catholic who was wearing a brown scapular.
Very interesting indeed, do you by chance have any sources on this? That would be extremely interesting to me.. cause it would tie into my interest in the conversation between indigenous peoples and the church. The Catholic Church had done a lot of work as missionaries and perhaps that would explain the respect for the scapular. Native people generally don't want to disrespect the sacred as that would definitely be bad medicine for them...and when I participated with the Dakota Sioux in their SunDance that sense of the sacred has carrried over the generations.
Bruce
Can anything as simple as a piece of cloth worn as a statement of faith in a promise be this powerful? Certainly! Its this very simplicity si what gives the Scapular its universal appeal. Just wearing it is a prayer, a sign of faith in God, of hope in His mercy, of love for all the Truth He deposited in the Catholic Church. Even non-Christians have been known to respect it, like the black slaves who were ministered to by St. Peter Claver, many of whom were converted to the faith. But one of the most remarkable examples of the respect shown by non-Christians toward the scapular was recorded by the people who inspected the carnage left in the wake of Custer's Last Stand at the battle of the Little Big Horn.
The body of Colonel Keogh, an Irishman of deep Catholic faith, was found propped against a tree. His shirt had been torn open and there, neatly arranged on his breast, was the Brown Scapular of Our Lady of Mount Carmel. The news correspondent who reported this discovery for L'Univers, report that, ". . .Without a doubt the Sacred Badge awakened recollections of the teachings of some devoted missionary; one could see that several of the savages had assisted in bearing the body of an enemy, only a few moments before an object of detestation, to a sheltered spot; there placing it in a reclining position, the head leaning against a tree, carefully arranging the Badge so loved by the deceased upon his breast . . ."
http://catholicplanet.com/articles/article24.htm
Ah, that is awesome reference to historical and verifiable fact. I thought - like I said in my earlier post on this - that the reaction of our Lakota Sioux brothers would of had something to do with missionaries and the Lakota sense of good and bad medicines. Catholic Planet is also a very reliable source -albeit - quite conservative for me. I love the music section of Catholic Planet.
Thanks again Poche.
Bruce
If you are interested in the Indigenous peoples and the Catholic Church here is someting that may be of interest to you;
One of the more remarkable stories that relate to Salinas Pueblo Missions National Monument is the story of Maria de Jesus de Agreda. Born in 1602, Sor Maria de Agreda is reported to have experienced a period of bilocations beginning in 1620. Sor Maria revealed that while in a trance in her convent in Agreda, Spain, she was also mystically present in New Mexico and other places in the present day American southwest and Mexico. While in New Mexico, Sor Maria reported that she had visited the Jumano Indians encouraging them to visit the Spanish missions to ask that a missionary return with them to their pueblos and villages. By 1626, reports from New Mexico were relaying stories of Native Americans arriving at missions because a "Lady in Blue" had told them to go and speak to the priests at those missions. One location said to have been visited by this "Lady in Blue" was the pueblo of Las Humanas, now known as Gran Quivira. She was also reported to have repeatedly "visited" a group of refugee Jumanos near the mission of Cuarac (Quarai). With the arrival of additional missionaries in 1629, Gran Quivira became a visita (satellite mission without a resident Father) of the Abo Mission. Meanwhile, Fray Alonso de Benavides, Custodian of New Mexico, returned to Spain bringing his report (or memorial) of the Blue Nun in New Mexico. While in Spain Benavides met with King Felipe IV, and with his report on the Blue Nun was able to secure additional funds for New Mexico. Benavides then met with Sor Maria in Agreda for three weeks, confirming that she was indeed the "Lady in Blue." An expanded report was presented to Pope Urban VIII in 1634. The following year the Spanish Inquisition visited Sor Maria and found nothing to discredit her story and writings. In 1643 Sor Maria is visited by King Felipe IV and they begin a 22 year correspondence. Following her death in 1665, the beatification process began in 1673 by Pope Clemente X, who declared Sor Maria a "Venerable," but the process for her canonization has yet to be completed.
A resurgence in interest in the story of Maria de Agreda following her 400th birthday in 2002 has recently brought added interest in Gran Quivira, Quarai, and Abo, and the town of Mountainair, New Mexico. Plans by the Manzano Mountain Arts Council for a public mural in Mountainair featuring Sor Maria are now in the works.
http://www.nps.gov/sapu/historyculture/maria-de-agreda.htm
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communion in the hand
There is nothing new under the sun.
The traditional masses of early Christians were Communion in the hand and domestic language.
Latin and Communion on the tongue came in during the middle ages, centuries after Jesus resurrection.
And Communion in the hand was not to be more reverent, it was to prevent abuse of the Host.
Get educated. You just basically claimed an early Christian practice as being diabolic.
With the original communion in the hand the practice was to recieve in the right hand and to directly consume into the mouth, not the practice that is in use today.
I agree with you on the original teachings as I remember when communion in the hand was received but what practices in our post-council church are you talking about today? Do you see abuses in how we are receiving communion in the handS?
I am not seeing that in our dioceses, but our diocese has fortunately or unfortunately (depending upon your perspective) been conservative
Bruce
It is not a question of teaching it is a quesetion of discipline and practice.
Originally the practiccw was to place the host in the hand. And the recipient would place the host in their mouth.
Now in the "restoration" it is place host in the hand and the recipient will take the host in their other hand and place it in their mouth.
Ah, I see what you are saying and that makes sense. I also take communion in the hand the wrong way as well. I think the restoration way is better because for me it allows me not to drop the host and therefore desecrate the Lord unintentionally.
I have no problem with the restoration way, do you have concerns about this practice as I see it as a common sense thing.
Bruce
Getting a little bolder in your mission here I see.
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B.F.
I also know indians were used as radio comms men in WW2 as nαzιs couldn't decipher languages.
A number of Indians were early on made into freemasons too!
A freemason Indian saved a trooper officer freemason in 1800's from being scalped and shot by fellow injuns!
PS
Which Pope used to blatantly kiss the airport runway (APRON) as soon as he landed in a country?
Yes, "wind-talkers" as the movie is named....awesome story! I wasn't aware that the freemasons accepted indigenous peoples...do you have a reference for me, that is extremely interesting. I am happy that the freemason was spared the scalping...but did you know that was not our peoples practice, that was introduced by the Dutch, and we took a liking to it :) :cheers:
Thank you glaston...you are the first to let me know of the relationship between indigenous peoples and freemason..wasn't aware at all.
Bruce
I heard that at Custers l;ast stand all of the bodies of the American soldiers were mutilated except one. This one was a Catholic who was wearing a brown scapular.
Very interesting indeed, do you by chance have any sources on this? That would be extremely interesting to me.. cause it would tie into my interest in the conversation between indigenous peoples and the church. The Catholic Church had done a lot of work as missionaries and perhaps that would explain the respect for the scapular. Native people generally don't want to disrespect the sacred as that would definitely be bad medicine for them...and when I participated with the Dakota Sioux in their SunDance that sense of the sacred has carrried over the generations.
Bruce
Can anything as simple as a piece of cloth worn as a statement of faith in a promise be this powerful? Certainly! Its this very simplicity si what gives the Scapular its universal appeal. Just wearing it is a prayer, a sign of faith in God, of hope in His mercy, of love for all the Truth He deposited in the Catholic Church. Even non-Christians have been known to respect it, like the black slaves who were ministered to by St. Peter Claver, many of whom were converted to the faith. But one of the most remarkable examples of the respect shown by non-Christians toward the scapular was recorded by the people who inspected the carnage left in the wake of Custer's Last Stand at the battle of the Little Big Horn.
The body of Colonel Keogh, an Irishman of deep Catholic faith, was found propped against a tree. His shirt had been torn open and there, neatly arranged on his breast, was the Brown Scapular of Our Lady of Mount Carmel. The news correspondent who reported this discovery for L'Univers, report that, ". . .Without a doubt the Sacred Badge awakened recollections of the teachings of some devoted missionary; one could see that several of the savages had assisted in bearing the body of an enemy, only a few moments before an object of detestation, to a sheltered spot; there placing it in a reclining position, the head leaning against a tree, carefully arranging the Badge so loved by the deceased upon his breast . . ."
http://catholicplanet.com/articles/article24.htm
Ah, that is awesome reference to historical and verifiable fact. I thought - like I said in my earlier post on this - that the reaction of our Lakota Sioux brothers would of had something to do with missionaries and the Lakota sense of good and bad medicines. Catholic Planet is also a very reliable source -albeit - quite conservative for me. I love the music section of Catholic Planet.
Thanks again Poche.
Bruce
If you are interested in the Indigenous peoples and the Catholic Church here is someting that may be of interest to you;
One of the more remarkable stories that relate to Salinas Pueblo Missions National Monument is the story of Maria de Jesus de Agreda. Born in 1602, Sor Maria de Agreda is reported to have experienced a period of bilocations beginning in 1620. Sor Maria revealed that while in a trance in her convent in Agreda, Spain, she was also mystically present in New Mexico and other places in the present day American southwest and Mexico. While in New Mexico, Sor Maria reported that she had visited the Jumano Indians encouraging them to visit the Spanish missions to ask that a missionary return with them to their pueblos and villages. By 1626, reports from New Mexico were relaying stories of Native Americans arriving at missions because a "Lady in Blue" had told them to go and speak to the priests at those missions. One location said to have been visited by this "Lady in Blue" was the pueblo of Las Humanas, now known as Gran Quivira. She was also reported to have repeatedly "visited" a group of refugee Jumanos near the mission of Cuarac (Quarai). With the arrival of additional missionaries in 1629, Gran Quivira became a visita (satellite mission without a resident Father) of the Abo Mission. Meanwhile, Fray Alonso de Benavides, Custodian of New Mexico, returned to Spain bringing his report (or memorial) of the Blue Nun in New Mexico. While in Spain Benavides met with King Felipe IV, and with his report on the Blue Nun was able to secure additional funds for New Mexico. Benavides then met with Sor Maria in Agreda for three weeks, confirming that she was indeed the "Lady in Blue." An expanded report was presented to Pope Urban VIII in 1634. The following year the Spanish Inquisition visited Sor Maria and found nothing to discredit her story and writings. In 1643 Sor Maria is visited by King Felipe IV and they begin a 22 year correspondence. Following her death in 1665, the beatification process began in 1673 by Pope Clemente X, who declared Sor Maria a "Venerable," but the process for her canonization has yet to be completed.
A resurgence in interest in the story of Maria de Agreda following her 400th birthday in 2002 has recently brought added interest in Gran Quivira, Quarai, and Abo, and the town of Mountainair, New Mexico. Plans by the Manzano Mountain Arts Council for a public mural in Mountainair featuring Sor Maria are now in the works.
http://www.nps.gov/sapu/historyculture/maria-de-agreda.htm
Thank you Poche. I don't know if you know, but I visited the Salinas Mission in New Mexico but I did not know the story of this nun. It affirms my understanding of the conversation between aboriginal peoples and th eCatholic church, it is nothing new. There is much for reflection here.
There was what the archeologist think is a kiva structure on the mission grounds and they believe it is a place where the Franciscans and the Pueblo elders spoke about spiritual things. The other thing for me on a personal basis, is that two of my pictures created the image from the sunlight that looks exactly like a chalice and I always took that as a special message from God to encourage me on the road to understanding the dynamics of inculturation and the indigenous - Catholic conversatino.
Bruce
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Hi Poche, I am attaching my picture of the chalice that the sun's reflection made at Salinas Mission. I know it is just the sun's reflection but what an awesome coincidence...sometimes God finds incredibly simple ways to talk to us doesn't He?
Bruce
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Read Trickster and Poche's giddy exchange about the beauties of Communion in the hand and "inculturation" and weep for your Traditional Catholic forum, my friends.
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Read Trickster and Poche's giddy exchange about the beauties of Communion in the hand and "inculturation" and weep for your Traditional Catholic forum, my friends.
True. If the giddiness continues, we may be witnessing the beginnings of our first intra-forum bro-mance!
:tv-disturbed:
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Read Trickster and Poche's giddy exchange about the beauties of Communion in the hand and "inculturation" and weep for your Traditional Catholic forum, my friends.
True. If the giddiness continues, we may be witnessing the beginnings of our first intra-forum bro-mance!
:tv-disturbed:
I would like to see both of them banned. Look at the waste of space to their repeatedly quoting each other and the modernism.
What in the hell is some sixty year old dude going back to school for a degree in philosophy doing anyway?? That speaks volumes per se.
Poche has henceforth been a trivial nuisance. But the Tricker is a giant raw itching hemorrhoid. He thinks the Assisi events were great; he thinks CITH is great; he has a bit too much interest in and "respect" for native "spirituality"--and his slant is much more directed at policing our vocabulary, and sometimes subtly/sometimes not so subtly impressing upon us that modernism is grand.
Please throw some Preparation H on this problem.
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Read Trickster and Poche's giddy exchange about the beauties of Communion in the hand and "inculturation" and weep for your Traditional Catholic forum, my friends.
My post was how the present day communion in the hand was not a true restoration of an ancient practice. In ancient days no one would ever touch their food with their left hand. Whie they recieved communion in the hand they would never use their other hand to consume the host. They took the host directly to their mouth.
This newer version is an abberation.
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Btnyc. What are the nine ways to be an acessory to sin?
Here are a couple : instigating and provoking.
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Btnyc. What are the nine ways to be an acessory to sin?
Here are a couple : instigating and provoking.
Yes, I know that.
Who is provoking whom to what sin, exactly?
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Btnyc. What are the nine ways to be an acessory to sin?
Here are a couple : instigating and provoking.
Mealy-mouthed false charity frequently borders on consent/silence.
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BTNYC, Lighthouse, OCHA, you are the best in your field. I give you that. I don't believe Traditional Catholics share your sense of charity when you are faced with one who "begs to differ" on many things, but when you read my posts you will see a lot of agreement too. Again, you all own your opinions and they are yours and yours alone.
Inculturation was a practice of the traditional church, it may have a new fancy name, but the Traditional Catholic church was always very flexible in the area of missionary work throughout the world, and because I am indigenous and have studied our own experience, both the Jesuits and the Oblates of Mary Immaculate worked with us in terms of bringing our native spirituality closer to traditional catholicism...and this - my friends - happened decades before Vatican II.
OCHA, what is wrong with a 60 year old dude going to university? As we age, we get stubborn and stuck in our ways, and for me, university is the opportunity to get around the energy of the young, getting around the energy of thinkers and so forth, it is an exciting place to be...
Anyways, keep up the loving reflections there brothers...
Bruce Ferguson
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Read Trickster and Poche's giddy exchange about the beauties of Communion in the hand and "inculturation" and weep for your Traditional Catholic forum, my friends.
By the way BTNYC, at last count there are probably two Novus ordo posters, are we that much of a threat to the hundreds of traditional catholic, do not weep for TC forum, rather celebrate that it is reaching out to at least two novus ordo people who are taking your work seriously. This is a great forum because it challenges me to think a bit deeper into what TC are saying....wouldn't you prefer that I engage with you OR go away and be another Novus ordo person who simply considers the TC as crazies?
That's my point there are many liberal catholics (progressive and centralist) Catholics who do not know you or what your forum stands for and then judge the authenticity of both the Traditional Catholic view and indeed Traditional Catholics themselves. And given that Jesus is amongst all his peoples I tread lightly on ignoring the other or judging the other..."what you do to the least of these...."
Poche was just correcting me on my understanding of recieiving communion in the hand and in the late 60's early 70's when the new practice was introduced at our parish, Poche's understanding reminded me of our original instructions....
That was great, but BTNYC, I think you have a good point, perhaps that N.O. conversation should of been taken over to Catholic Answers...
So I hope that clarifies and gets us on the same page again.
Bruce Ferguson
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Btnyc. What are the nine ways to be an acessory to sin?
Here are a couple : instigating and provoking.
Yes, I know that.
Who is provoking whom to what sin, exactly?
BTNYC. You know that you are provoking. Whether I give you any mental power over me that would provoke me to sin is another question.
I do know that some of the comments in this thread have been very disrespectful of fellow human beings, have minimized an authentic process of engagement and if you read the postings after your comment, I am sure you can see where the sins have been committed
Bravo and thank you Viva Cristo Rey for your act of charity towards me.
Bruce
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That was great, but BTNYC, I think you have a good point, perhaps that N.O. conversation should of been taken over to Catholic Answers...
Oh, I tried that last year. I was banned for life from CAF for the crimes of fraternally correcting a Catholic who was incorporating Islamic prayers into his own prayers (a form of "inculturation" which I sincerely hope you disapprove of too, Trickster), as well as for calling Moselms "Mohammedans" (a term that was good enough for a millennium's worth of popes and saints, but not for the CAF moderators) and for calling Martin Luther a heretic (which is akin to banning me for calling an apple a fruit - it proves objectively that CAF is staffed by lunatics who not only deny First Principles, but will censure those who do not).
This proved two things to me; first, that the much vaunted "charity" and "open mindedness" of "progressive Catholics" has no more reality or substance than a phantom; and second, that debating with a "progressive Catholic" (read: a Modernist) puts one in the position of Alice debating with Humpty Dumpty:
When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.'
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BTNYC. You know that you are provoking.
You know what I know?
Why didn't you tell us you were capable of reading hearts?
As for me, I'll stick to judging what is objective and not what is subjective. Fr Hesse never failed to stress that distinction. Did you pick up on it when you listened to him?
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That was great, but BTNYC, I think you have a good point, perhaps that N.O. conversation should of been taken over to Catholic Answers...
Oh, I tried that last year. I was banned for life from CAF for the crimes of fraternally correcting a Catholic who was incorporating Islamic prayers into his own prayers (a form of "inculturation" which I sincerely hope you disapprove of too, Trickster), as well as for calling Moselms "Mohammedans" (a term that was good enough for a millennium's worth of popes and saints, but not for the CAF moderators) and for calling Martin Luther a heretic (which is akin to banning me for calling an apple a fruit - it proves objectively that CAF is staffed by lunatics who not only deny First Principles, but will censure those who do not).
This proved two things to me; first, that the much vaunted "charity" and "open mindedness" of "progressive Catholics" has no more reality or substance than a phantom; and second, that debating with a "progressive Catholic" (read: a Modernist) puts one in the position of Alice debating with Humpty Dumpty:
When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.'
I agree with you BTNYC! That is my point exactly, when people - progressive, conservative or traditional are faced with someone who holds an opposite position or a position that is sensitive to the other, then the automatic solution is to disengage, minimize, or call down. Incidently, I have the great record of having all of my threads closed down there :)
It's too bad really that we can't debate each other like adults...oh well... life goes on.
Take care
B
Bruce
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BTNYC. You know that you are provoking.
You know what I know?
Why didn't you tell us you were capable of reading hearts?
As for me, I'll stick to judging what is objective and not what is subjective. Fr Hesse never failed to stress that distinction. Did you pick up on it when you listened to him?
Yes I did BTNYC...but if I remember correctly, you were judging Poche and me indirectly through minimizing our conversation. I don't need to read hearts if I can read writing :) Fr. Hesse has some good points, but I would not hold all he says as absolute either.
Bruce
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That was great, but BTNYC, I think you have a good point, perhaps that N.O. conversation should of been taken over to Catholic Answers...
Oh, I tried that last year. I was banned for life from CAF for the crimes of fraternally correcting a Catholic who was incorporating Islamic prayers into his own prayers (a form of "inculturation" which I sincerely hope you disapprove of too, Trickster), as well as for calling Moselms "Mohammedans" (a term that was good enough for a millennium's worth of popes and saints, but not for the CAF moderators) and for calling Martin Luther a heretic (which is akin to banning me for calling an apple a fruit - it proves objectively that CAF is staffed by lunatics who not only deny First Principles, but will censure those who do not).
This proved two things to me; first, that the much vaunted "charity" and "open mindedness" of "progressive Catholics" has no more reality or substance than a phantom; and second, that debating with a "progressive Catholic" (read: a Modernist) puts one in the position of Alice debating with Humpty Dumpty:
When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.'
No, I support inculturation. That is a key building block for any kind of conversation with indigenous communities and the Catholic Church.
Bruce
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Bruce,
Inculturation is garbage. Should a statue of Our Lady be placed next to a eight handed zombie or some other artifact from a religion of satan?
Inculturation leads to indifferentism.
Inculturation is also deception. A novus ordite pretending to respect other cultures when he has a quasi-conversion planned all along.
Our Lord said that the gods of the gentiles are devils. I'm sticking to that.
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Bruce,
Inculturation is garbage. Should a statue of Our Lady be placed next to a eight handed zombie or some other artifact from a religion of satan?
Inculturation leads to indifferentism.
Inculturation is also deception. A novus ordite pretending to respect other cultures when he has a quasi-conversion planned all along.
Our Lord said that the gods of the gentiles are devils. I'm sticking to that.
True
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Bruce,
Inculturation is garbage. Should a statue of Our Lady be placed next to a eight handed zombie or some other artifact from a religion of satan?
Inculturation leads to indifferentism.
Inculturation is also deception. A novus ordite pretending to respect other cultures when he has a quasi-conversion planned all along.
Our Lord said that the gods of the gentiles are devils. I'm sticking to that.
Then you miss the concept of inculturation totally. Inculturation (taking things from cultures and applying Catholic meaning) has been going on since the beginning of the church. Much of the form of the traditional mass was developed upon Roman buildings and rituals of those days...there's a new book that looks at that and I will have to find it.
Many of the Celtic mythological figures were renamed Saints in the initial conversion of Ireland..and so on and so on.. inculturation is not novus ordo .
Captain, I'd be interested in how you see inculturation leading to indifference.... to me and my experience the effect is quite the opposite.
In terms of all gods of the gentiles are devils may be true, but the gods of foreign cultures do not have anything to do with inculturation at least in terms of how we have experienced it in North America as indigenous peoples.
I didn't quite understand what you meant when you said a novus ordite ...has a quasi conversion planned all along...do you mean people become catholics or new order catholics become something of the culture they are in conversation with...I think both are true, the church becomes the people it absorbs within.
Good stuff, thank you Captn'
Bruce