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Author Topic: What if Adam had refused to taste the forbidden fruit?  (Read 3461 times)

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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: What if Adam had refused to taste the forbidden fruit?
« Reply #30 on: December 19, 2018, 03:47:34 PM »
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    • Many theologians would disagree with you.
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    Offline Cera

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    Re: What if Adam had refused to taste the forbidden fruit?
    « Reply #31 on: December 19, 2018, 04:06:58 PM »
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    • The fall of mankind is at the feet of Adam. Quid lost his argument blaming Eve on another thread.

    Quid incorrectly blamed Eve by quoting the Old Testament.
    "From the woman came the beginning of sin, and by her we all die." ~ Ecclesiasticus 25:33

     I quoted the New Testament
    “For by a man came death: and by a man the resurrection of the dead. And as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive” (1 Cor. 15:21-22).

    Quid repeated his Old Testament quote and made an infantile statement.

    I quoted proof that the New Testament completes and supercedes the Old Testament.

    The Old Testament declares that man was separated from God through sin (Genesis chapter 3), and the New Testament declares that man can now be restored in his relationship to God (Romans chapters 3-6).

    Hebrews 8:7, "For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second." 8:13, "In that He ( God) says, " A new covenant," He has made the fist obsolete.

    Quid pretended not to hear the truth that “In Adam all die” and jumped over to this thread.
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    Offline Vintagewife3

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    Re: What if Adam had refused to taste the forbidden fruit?
    « Reply #32 on: December 19, 2018, 04:11:12 PM »
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    • Quote from: Cera on December 19, 2018, 04:06:58 PM
    The fall of mankind is at the feet of Adam. Quid lost his argument blaming Eve on another thread.

    Quid incorrectly blamed Eve by quoting the Old Testament.
    "From the woman came the beginning of sin, and by her we all die." ~ Ecclesiasticus 25:33

     I quoted the New Testament
    “For by a man came death: and by a man the resurrection of the dead. And as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive” (1 Cor. 15:21-22).

    Quid repeated his Old Testament quote and made an infantile statement.

    I quoted proof that the New Testament completes and supercedes the Old Testament.

    The Old Testament declares that man was separated from God through sin (Genesis chapter 3), and the New Testament declares that man can now be restored in his relationship to God (Romans chapters 3-6).

    Hebrews 8:7, "For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second." 8:13, "In that He ( God) says, " A new covenant," He has made the fist obsolete.

    Quid pretended not to hear the truth that “In Adam all die” and jumped over to this thread.
    But Cera, Adam was seduced by Eve! 
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    Offline Quid Retribuam Domino

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    Re: What if Adam had refused to taste the forbidden fruit?
    « Reply #33 on: December 19, 2018, 04:11:56 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on December 19, 2018, 03:47:34 PM
    Many theologians would disagree with you.

    The Protties and Novus Ordoites, if they can be considered "theologians" and not narrators of the falsehood.
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    From the woman came the beginning of sin, and by her we all die. ~ Ecclesiasticus 25:33

    International Women's Day is a day we all celebrate Eve's rebellion at the Tree and our plummet into sin.

    Offline Quid Retribuam Domino

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    Re: What if Adam had refused to taste the forbidden fruit?
    « Reply #34 on: December 19, 2018, 04:19:23 PM »
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    • Quote from: Cera on December 19, 2018, 04:06:58 PM
    The fall of mankind is at the feet of Adam. Quid lost his argument blaming Eve on another thread.

    Quid incorrectly blamed Eve by quoting the Old Testament.
    "From the woman came the beginning of sin, and by her we all die." ~ Ecclesiasticus 25:33

     I quoted the New Testament
    “For by a man came death: and by a man the resurrection of the dead. And as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive” (1 Cor. 15:21-22).

    Quid repeated his Old Testament quote and made an infantile statement.

    I quoted proof that the New Testament completes and supercedes the Old Testament.

    The Old Testament declares that man was separated from God through sin (Genesis chapter 3), and the New Testament declares that man can now be restored in his relationship to God (Romans chapters 3-6).

    Hebrews 8:7, "For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second." 8:13, "In that He ( God) says, " A new covenant," He has made the fist obsolete.

    Quid pretended not to hear the truth that “In Adam all die” and jumped over to this thread.

    Your exegesis is wrong, woman.

    1 Cor. 15: 21-22 means the first person to die is Adam, a man, but the person responsible for his death (and the death of all mankind) is Eve as told in Ecclesiasticus 25:33

    Eve sinned first and corrupted Adam to sin, but Adam was the first person to die, just as men, today, generally have shorter life spans due to bearing more physical labors (one of the consequences of original sin) than women (they have their own consequences intrinsic to them).

    Your citing of Genesis 3 and Hebrews 8 is mere padding, and it's absolutely void of supporting your argument that "man (Adam) is the cause of original sin and the fall of nature".

    You lose, again, woman.
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    From the woman came the beginning of sin, and by her we all die. ~ Ecclesiasticus 25:33

    International Women's Day is a day we all celebrate Eve's rebellion at the Tree and our plummet into sin.

    Offline Student of Qi

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    Re: What if Adam had refused to taste the forbidden fruit?
    « Reply #35 on: December 19, 2018, 04:30:38 PM »
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    • Quote from: Quid Retribuam Domino on December 19, 2018, 03:35:02 PM
    She is wrong because all of mankind (did) still would have fallen. Her fall might have transcended over to Adam, thus making him more susceptible to her corrupting him, subsequently, his eating of the apple.

    All of nature fell because of Eve.
    Considering you are on Cathinfo, I presume you to be "Resistance", SSPX, or some flavor of Sede. With this in mind, I would mention that clerics teach the way I mentioned above. A particular Risistance bishop I have heard say it more than once with my own ears. And considering he was SSPX trained and insists he has changed nothing from the way he was taught and formed, we can conclude the SSPX and resulting Resistance clerics hold this position/opinion.

    Quote from: Pax Vobis on December 19, 2018, 03:47:34 PM
    Many theologians would disagree with you.

    That's what I would be inclined to think as well. I have never heard a cleric suggest God would obliterate Eve, as Ladislaus suggested as a possibility, or any other conclusion of what might've happened. In general, this thread is the first time I've actually seen anyone bring up different ideas to this subject. It seems Universal to me so far that Adam would help Eve do penance/contrition and make some form of reparation, but the human race as a whole would not have fallen. That's the position I currently hold on the matter as well. 

    Frankly, while it is interesting to speculate on, what good does it benefit us to think of the "what ifs" on this subject? We cant change our current reality by the speculation, and we may simply be wasting time on it. Please explain to me if one thinks otherwise.


    P.s. I'm not certain if yall were referring to me as "she", but just to be clear, this poster is a "he". 
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    Offline Quid Retribuam Domino

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    Re: What if Adam had refused to taste the forbidden fruit?
    « Reply #36 on: December 19, 2018, 04:34:45 PM »
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    • Quote from: Student of Qi on December 19, 2018, 04:30:38 PM
    Considering you are on Cathinfo, I presume you to be "Resistance", SSPX, or some flavor of Sede. With this in mind, I would mention that clerics teach the way I mentioned above. A particular Risistance bishop I have heard say it more than once with my own ears. And considering he was SSPX trained and insists he has changed nothing from the way he was taught and formed, we can conclude the SSPX and resulting Resistance clerics hold this position/opinion.

    According to you. Even if your anecdote is real, that doesn't mean that bishop is correct. What's his position on EENS? There is quite a bit of division between trad Catholic bishops and priests on that subject, too.

    The founder (I love him and still think he was blessed, despite his following mistakes) of SSPX erred in teaching non-Catholics can make it to Heaven and there should be no urgency to water baptize a person seeking to enter the Church. He was wrong, and your bishop is wrong about who caused original sin and his hypothesis that mankind would not have fallen, if Eve had only sinned.
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    From the woman came the beginning of sin, and by her we all die. ~ Ecclesiasticus 25:33

    International Women's Day is a day we all celebrate Eve's rebellion at the Tree and our plummet into sin.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: What if Adam had refused to taste the forbidden fruit?
    « Reply #37 on: December 19, 2018, 04:36:39 PM »
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    • Quote from: Vintagewife3 on December 18, 2018, 05:03:04 PM
    I understand what baptism is. I am a baptized Catholic, Quid. I mean if it’s not part of us genetically, what would the purpose of baptism be? You can’t wash away genetics.

    Only its transmission has a genetic component, but there's no Original Sin gene per se.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: What if Adam had refused to taste the forbidden fruit?
    « Reply #38 on: December 19, 2018, 04:39:13 PM »
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    • Quote from: Endeavor on December 18, 2018, 07:03:20 PM
    It is not genetic.

    St. Thomas suggests that there's a genetic component to its transmission (in the quote posted earlier).
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    Offline Quid Retribuam Domino

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    Re: What if Adam had refused to taste the forbidden fruit?
    « Reply #39 on: December 19, 2018, 04:55:57 PM »
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    • Quote from: Cera on December 19, 2018, 04:06:58 PM
    The fall of mankind is at the feet of Adam. Quid lost his argument blaming Eve on another thread.

    Quid incorrectly blamed Eve by quoting the Old Testament.
    "From the woman came the beginning of sin, and by her we all die." ~ Ecclesiasticus 25:33

     I quoted the New Testament
    “For by a man came death: and by a man the resurrection of the dead. And as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive” (1 Cor. 15:21-22).

    Quid repeated his Old Testament quote and made an infantile statement.

    I quoted proof that the New Testament completes and supercedes the Old Testament.

    The Old Testament declares that man was separated from God through sin (Genesis chapter 3), and the New Testament declares that man can now be restored in his relationship to God (Romans chapters 3-6).

    Hebrews 8:7, "For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second." 8:13, "In that He ( God) says, " A new covenant," He has made the fist obsolete.

    Quid pretended not to hear the truth that “In Adam all die” and jumped over to this thread.

    Your exegesis is wrong, woman.

    1 Cor. 15: 21-22 means the first person to die is Adam, a man, but the person responsible for his death (and the death of all mankind) is Eve as told in Ecclesiasticus 25:33

    Eve sinned first and corrupted Adam to sin, but Adam was the first person to die, just as men, today, generally have shorter life spans due to bearing more physical labors (one of the consequences of original sin intrinsic to men) than women (they have their own consequences intrinsic to them).

    Your citing of Genesis 3 and Hebrews 8 is mere padding, and it's absolutely void of supporting your argument that "man (Adam) is the cause of original sin and the fall of nature".

    You lose, again, woman.
    Logged
    From the woman came the beginning of sin, and by her we all die. ~ Ecclesiasticus 25:33

    International Women's Day is a day we all celebrate Eve's rebellion at the Tree and our plummet into sin.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: What if Adam had refused to taste the forbidden fruit?
    « Reply #40 on: December 19, 2018, 08:00:00 PM »
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    • Both St Thomas and St Augustine (and who knows how many other saints) say that Original Sin is due to ADAM’S sin alone.  Don’t ignore them in your quest to correct women.  
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    Offline Quid Retribuam Domino

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    Re: What if Adam had refused to taste the forbidden fruit?
    « Reply #41 on: December 20, 2018, 02:19:36 AM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on December 19, 2018, 08:00:00 PM
    Both St Thomas and St Augustine (and who knows how many other saints) say that Original Sin is due to ADAM’S sin alone.

    Who made what they say dogmatic truth? St. Thomas taught against the Immaculate Conception, but he was obviously wrong there.

    Adam is blamed insofar that he allowed Eve to be navigated by her own faculties as she was left alone, rather than leading her, thus she first sinned by trusting in Satan (the Serpent) over God, because she wanted to be like God with knowledge. Adam is, also, blamed because he's the human father of humanity. Eve was created from Adam's rib by God, therefore, Adam had authority over her, and he was, ultimately, responsible for her actions. However, Eve was the first sinner because her action met all conditions required for sin. All of nature fell because of her, and this fall transcended to Adam, thus making him more susceptible to being corrupted by her in the Garden. Ecclesiasticus tells us that the beginning of sin came from Eve, and we all die because of her. Again, the reason is because Eve was the first person to meet all conditions of sin: 1) Its subject matter must be grave. 2) It must be committed with full knowledge (and awareness) of the sinful action and the gravity of the offense. 3) It must be committed with deliberate and complete consent.

    Adam's lapse in leadership didn't meet all conditions required of sin, but he, ultimately, gets the blame by some Church doctors because he's the human father of humanity and he had authority over Eve. Of course, Adam had to, also, sin, which he did by eating of the apple, but it was Eve who sinned first and seduced Adam to eat of it.

    The fall of nature and death transcended through Eve to Adam.

    The salvation of man transcended through Blessed Mary to Jesus Christ.

    Eve chose to sin, and Adam followed her example rather than remaining a humble creature before God and trusting in Him.

    Blessed Mary chose to reject sin which allowed herself to continue to be an immaculate vessel for the Creator of Life - the Logos - Whose human nature, subsequently, chose to reject sin and fulfill the Divine plan of His holy sacrifice so we might have eternal life.

    In short, if Eve hadn't sinned first, Adam wouldn't have sinned and there would be no fall of nature. If the Immaculate Conception hadn't chosen to reject sin in her life, and had she rejected the Lord's plan for her to be a vessel for Our Redeemer, the Word would not have become flesh and dwelt among us, and we would have no salvation.

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    Don’t ignore them in your quest to correct women.

    #soy
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    From the woman came the beginning of sin, and by her we all die. ~ Ecclesiasticus 25:33

    International Women's Day is a day we all celebrate Eve's rebellion at the Tree and our plummet into sin.

    Online Nadir

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    Re: What if Adam had refused to taste the forbidden fruit?
    « Reply #42 on: December 20, 2018, 02:47:30 AM »
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    • Quote from: Student of Qi on December 19, 2018, 04:30:38 PM
    Considering you are on Cathinfo, I presume you to be "Resistance", SSPX, or some flavor of Sede. 
    This is not necessarily so. I've been posting here for over 6 years and I am committed to none of the above. The only requirement, as I understand it, is that a poster be Catholic or sincerely enquiring into the Faith.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: What if Adam had refused to taste the forbidden fruit?
    « Reply #43 on: December 20, 2018, 08:07:37 AM »
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    • Quid,
    You continue to explain what happened in real life, which is not what we're talking about.  We're talking about a "what-if" scenario, which is completely different from our current reality, and which you apparently are unable to comprehend, so you should just stop trying.

    p.s. If you go around correcting random women you're not being a man, you're acting like an nosy, gossiping old-lady.  You have no authority over anyone on this site or anyone you meet randomly, so your zeal for true catholic leadership and the proper hierarchy of authority in the family is grossly misplaced when you act to correct those who are your equals, which 99% of the population are, since you're not their superior.  At best, you can offer fraternal correction and pray they listen, but your abrasive manner impedes any truth you try to convey.
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    Offline Vintagewife3

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    Re: What if Adam had refused to taste the forbidden fruit?
    « Reply #44 on: December 20, 2018, 08:12:47 AM »
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    • Adam sinned of his own free will. Eve didn’t ram the apple down his throat, and even if she’s did forcing him wouldn’t have been his sin either. Adam sinned of his own free will.


    If my husband wants to do something sinful (steal a car, commit insurance fraud, tax fraud, receive communion in a sacrilegious state, etc) but I don’t, and I do everything I can to stop it, and bring justice to the situation. He’s guilty, I’m not. I didn’t commit the sin, but he did. Adam commuted hisnown sin, but not because of Eve. He was weak in that moment, but that’s on him. He hid from God too.


    We are talking about what would have happened if he didn’t sin. Yes, history is set, but we are just wondering/asking questions.
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