Author Topic: What if Adam had refused to taste the forbidden fruit?  (Read 2428 times)

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Offline Mithrandylan

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Re: What if Adam had refused to taste the forbidden fruit?
« Reply #60 on: December 20, 2018, 04:40:30 PM »
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  • Adam is guilty of choosing to sin, but Eve sinned first, thereby, corrupting his and all of nature. She further seduced him, directly, by convincing him to eat of the apple. He still had free will and chose to sin against God by disobeying Him and following the example Eve.

    Adam gets the blame because he had authority over Eve, for she was created from his rib by God. He was, ultimately, responsible for the fall because he lapsed in leadership, which allowed Eve to be navigated by her own faculties and trust in Satan, but Eve was the first person to meet all conditions required to sin, thus, she was the mechanism for the fall of man and nature.
    .
    In your attempt to draw attention to the faults of women, you actually do the opposite.  In your view Adam becomes less than a man, absolved (colloquially speaking) of responsibility because women are just that powerful and a man just can't do anything to control himself when given suggestions (obviously there's some truth to this, but nowhere near as much as you're contending). 
    .
    I think you have some issues to sort through. 
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    Offline Cera

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    Re: What if Adam had refused to taste the forbidden fruit?
    « Reply #61 on: December 20, 2018, 06:15:29 PM »
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  • Yeah, a waste of time when you can be spending it on applying the already revealed truths to man.

    Speaking truth is not a waste of time.

    Ecclesiasticus is canon. It's truth. Quit speculating on things that don't even matter, but are designed to continue the false notion of some intrinsic female innocence.
    Who said anything about intrinsic female innocence? Eve sinned and the fall did not occur because she was not the head of the family. When the head of the family sinned, the fall resulted from the person with authority. Therefore "As in Adam all sinned. . ."
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    Offline Cera

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    Re: What if Adam had refused to taste the forbidden fruit?
    « Reply #62 on: December 20, 2018, 06:18:47 PM »
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  • and Cera made one of the biggest fallacies I've seen on this forum. She cites two Biblical passages, which have absolutely no relevance to original sin, that show the New fulfilling the Old, then she erroneously proceeds to use that as a parallel to God somehow abrogating the truth (Ecclesiasticus 25:33) of the Old Testament with the New Testament. Truth can't be revoked, because God is Truth, and He doesn't change. He is the same in the New Testament as in the Old Testament.
    The whole point of my post was that the New Testament completes and fulfills the Old Testament. Did you fail to comprehend the words in the scripture passages?
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: What if Adam had refused to taste the forbidden fruit?
    « Reply #63 on: December 20, 2018, 06:49:57 PM »
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  • .
    In your attempt to draw attention to the faults of women, you actually do the opposite.  In your view Adam becomes less than a man, absolved (colloquially speaking) of responsibility because women are just that powerful and a man just can't do anything to control himself when given suggestions (obviously there's some truth to this, but nowhere near as much as you're contending).  
    .
    I think you have some issues to sort through.

    That irony was not lost on me either.

    Offline trad123

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    Re: What if Adam had refused to taste the forbidden fruit?
    « Reply #64 on: December 20, 2018, 09:48:22 PM »
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  • http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/15011.htm

    St. Augustine, On Merit and the Forgiveness of Sins, and the Baptism of Infants (Book I)

    Quote
    21.

    (. . .)

    As a consequence, then, of this disobedience of the flesh and this law of sin and death, whoever is born of the flesh has need of spiritual regeneration — not only that he may reach the kingdom of God, but also that he may be freed from the damnation of sin. Hence men are on the one hand born in the flesh liable to sin and death from the first Adam, and on the other hand are born again in baptism associated with the righteousness and eternal life of the second Adam; even as it is written in the book of Ecclesiasticus: Of the woman came the beginning of sin, and through her we all die. Sirach 25:24 Now whether it be said of the woman or of Adam, both statements pertain to the first man; since (as we know) the woman is of the man, and the two are one flesh. Whence also it is written: And they two shall be one flesh; wherefore, the Lord says, they are no more two, but one flesh. Matthew 19:5-6
    2 Corinthians 4:3-4

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.


    Offline trad123

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    Re: What if Adam had refused to taste the forbidden fruit?
    « Reply #65 on: December 20, 2018, 09:51:12 PM »
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  • From the same book:


    Quote
    Chapter 2 [II.]— If Adam Had Not Sinned, He Would Never Have Died.

    They who say that Adam was so formed that he would even without any demerit of sin have died, not as the penalty of sin, but from the necessity of his being, endeavour indeed to refer that passage in the law, which says: "On the day you eat thereof you shall surely die," Genesis 2:17 not to the death of the body, but to that death of the soul which takes place in sin. It is the unbelievers who have died this death, to whom the Lord pointed when He said, "Let the dead bury their dead." Now what will be their answer, when we read that God, when reproving and sentencing the first man after his sin, said to him, "Dust you are, and unto dust shall you return?" Genesis 3:19 For it was not in respect of his soul that he was "dust," but clearly by reason of his body, and it was by the death of the self-same body that he was destined to "return to dust." Still, although it was by reason of his body that he was dust, and although he bare about the natural body in which he was created, he would, if he had not sinned, have been changed into a spiritual body, and would have passed into the incorruptible state, which is promised to the faithful and the saints, without the peril of death. 1 Corinthians 15:52-53 And for this issue we not only are conscious in ourselves of having an earnest desire, but we learn it from the apostle's intimation, when he says: "For in this we groan, longing to be clothed upon with our habitation which is from heaven; if so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened; not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality may be swallowed up of life." 2 Corinthians 5:2-4 Therefore, if Adam had not sinned, he would not have been divested of his body, but would have been clothed upon with immortality and incorruption, that "mortality might have been swallowed up of life;" that is, that he might have passed from the natural body into the spiritual body.

    2 Corinthians 4:3-4

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline Quid Retribuam Domino

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    Re: What if Adam had refused to taste the forbidden fruit?
    « Reply #66 on: December 21, 2018, 03:15:03 AM »
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  • Who said anything about intrinsic female innocence? Eve sinned and the fall did not occur because she was not the head of the family. When the head of the family sinned, the fall resulted from the person with authority. Therefore "As in Adam all sinned. . ."

    That contradicts Biblical canon of Ecclesiasticus 25:33, "From the woman came the beginning of sin, and by her we all die."
    From the woman came the beginning of sin, and by her we all die. ~ Ecclesiasticus 25:33

    International Women's Day is a day we all celebrate Eve's rebellion at the Tree and our plummet into sin.

    Offline Quid Retribuam Domino

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    Re: What if Adam had refused to taste the forbidden fruit?
    « Reply #67 on: December 21, 2018, 03:16:17 AM »
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  • The whole point of my post was that the New Testament completes and fulfills the Old Testament. Did you fail to comprehend the words in the scripture passages?

    Reiteration due to your cranial density:

    and Cera made one of the biggest fallacies I've seen on this forum. She cites two Biblical passages, which have absolutely no relevance to original sin, that show the New fulfilling the Old, then she erroneously proceeds to use that as a parallel to God somehow abrogating the truth (Ecclesiasticus 25:33) of the Old Testament with the New Testament. Truth can't be revoked, because God is Truth, and He doesn't change. He is the same in the New Testament as in the Old Testament.
    From the woman came the beginning of sin, and by her we all die. ~ Ecclesiasticus 25:33

    International Women's Day is a day we all celebrate Eve's rebellion at the Tree and our plummet into sin.


    Offline Quid Retribuam Domino

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    Re: What if Adam had refused to taste the forbidden fruit?
    « Reply #68 on: December 21, 2018, 03:23:22 AM »
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  • http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/15011.htm

    St. Augustine, On Merit and the Forgiveness of Sins, and the Baptism of Infants (Book I)

    St. Augustine's opinion is just that - an opinion, and not dogmatic truth.

    None of what you cited negates the fact that Eve sinned first, and Adam would not have sinned, if she hadn't first sinned and corrupted him. Because Eve sinned first, nature fell and we all die. However, it is true that if Adam hadn't sinned, he wouldn't have died because there would be no stain of sin on his soul, despite his nature being weakened with the rest of the fall of nature due to Eve's sin.

    #CantSeeTheForestForTheTrees
    From the woman came the beginning of sin, and by her we all die. ~ Ecclesiasticus 25:33

    International Women's Day is a day we all celebrate Eve's rebellion at the Tree and our plummet into sin.

    Offline Quid Retribuam Domino

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    Re: What if Adam had refused to taste the forbidden fruit?
    « Reply #69 on: December 21, 2018, 03:26:16 AM »
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  • .
    In your attempt to draw attention to the faults of women, you actually do the opposite.  In your view Adam becomes less than a man, absolved (colloquially speaking) of responsibility because women are just that powerful and a man just can't do anything to control himself when given suggestions (obviously there's some truth to this, but nowhere near as much as you're contending). 
    .
    I think you have some issues to sort through.

    Strawman argument.

    #gynecomastia
    From the woman came the beginning of sin, and by her we all die. ~ Ecclesiasticus 25:33

    International Women's Day is a day we all celebrate Eve's rebellion at the Tree and our plummet into sin.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: What if Adam had refused to taste the forbidden fruit?
    « Reply #70 on: December 21, 2018, 11:31:19 AM »
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  • #gynecomastia

    Is that something you deal with due to steroid use and excessive consumption of sugar?


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: What if Adam had refused to taste the forbidden fruit?
    « Reply #71 on: December 21, 2018, 11:34:46 AM »
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  • Indeed, Eve was the initial cause of the Fall, but many Catholic sources say that humanity sinned in Adam.  That's because he is the head and only in him can all of humanity be said to have been virtually contained.  Your argument actually undermines this headship of Adam.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: What if Adam had refused to taste the forbidden fruit?
    « Reply #72 on: December 21, 2018, 11:38:49 AM »
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  • In your zeal to blame woman, you're actually undermining man.  If he has the final authority and status of head, so then also he has primary responsibility for the Fall of humanity ... even if that Fall was occasioned instrumentally by Eve.  Eve was merely the instrumental cause of humanity's Fall, with Adam being the formal cause.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: What if Adam had refused to taste the forbidden fruit?
    « Reply #73 on: December 21, 2018, 11:42:29 AM »
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  • But you're still not addressing the central question.  Had Adam not fallen, but only Eve, would their offspring, had Adam chosen to procreate with her, have contracted Original Sin?

    Offline 1st Mansion Tenant

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    Re: What if Adam had refused to taste the forbidden fruit?
    « Reply #74 on: December 21, 2018, 12:39:58 PM »
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  • Is that something you deal with due to steroid use and excessive consumption of sugar?
    :laugh1:

     

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