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Author Topic: What exactly does it mean to live lukewarm?  (Read 995 times)

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Offline InfiniteFaith

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What exactly does it mean to live lukewarm?
« on: April 09, 2013, 07:39:14 PM »
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  • Does it mean rarely going to Church? or is it more of a sinning issue? As in, how much someone sins.


    Offline Anthony Benedict

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    What exactly does it mean to live lukewarm?
    « Reply #1 on: April 09, 2013, 10:43:36 PM »
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  • BY ST. JOHN CASSIAN

    CONFERENCE OF ABBOT DANIEL. ON THE LUST OF THE FLESH AND OF THE SPIRIT.

    Chapter 1

    Of the life of Abbot Daniel.

    Among the other heroes of Christian philosophy we also knew Abbot Daniel, who was not only the equal of those who dwelt in the desert of Scete in every sort of virtue, but was specially marked by the grace of humility. This man on account of his purity and gentleness, though in age the junior of most, was preferred to the office of the diaconate by the blessed Paphnutius, presbyter in the same desert: for the blessed Paphnutius was so delighted with his excellent qualities, that, as he knew that he was his equal in virtue and grace of life, he was anxious also to make him his equal in the order of the priesthood. And since he could not bear that he should remain any longer in an inferior office, and was also anxious to provide a worthy successor to himself in his lifetime, he promoted him to the dignity of the priesthood.  He however relinquished nothing of his former customary humility, and when the other was present, never took upon himself anything from his advance to a higher order, but when Abbot Paphnutius was offering spiritual sacrifices, ever continued to act as a deacon in the office of his former ministry. However, the blessed Paphnutius though so great a saint as to possess the grace of foreknowledge in many matters, yet in this case was disappointed of his hope of the succession and the choice he had made, for he himself passed to God no long time after him whom he had prepared as his successor.

    Chapter 2

    An investigation of the origin of a sudden change of feeling from inexpressible joy to extreme dejection of mind.

    So then we asked this blessed Daniel why it was that as we sat in the cells we were sometimes filled with the utmost gladness of heart, together with inexpressible delight and abundance of the holiest feelings, so that I will not say speech, but feeling could not follow it, and pure prayers were readily breathed, and the mind being filled with spiritual fruits, praying to God even in sleep could feel that its petitions rose lightly and powerfully to God: and again, why it was that for no reason we were suddenly filled with the utmost grief, and weighed down with unreasonable depression, so that we not only felt as if we ourselves were overcome with such feelings, but also our cell grew dreadful, reading palled upon us, aye and our very prayers were offered up unsteadily and vaguely, and almost as if we were intoxicated: so that while we were groaning and endeavouring to restore ourselves to our former disposition, our mind was unable to do this, and the more earnestly it sought to fix again its gaze upon God, so was it the more vehemently carried away to wandering thoughts by shifting aberrations and so utterly deprived of all spiritual fruits, as not to be capable of being roused from this deadly slumber even by the desire of the kingdom of heaven, or by the fear of hell held out to it. To this he replied.

    Chapter 3

    His answer to the question raised.

    A threefold account of this mental dryness of which you speak has been given by the Elders. For it comes either from carelessness on our part, or from the assaults of the devil, or from the permission and allowance of the Lord. From carelessness on our part, when through our own faults, coldness has come upon us, and we have behaved carelessly and hastily, and owing to slothful idleness have fed on bad thoughts, and so make the ground of our heart bring forth thorns and thistles; which spring up in it, and consequently make us sterile, and powerless as regards all spiritual fruit and meditation. From the assaults of the devil when, sometimes, while we are actually intent on good desires, our enemy with crafty subtlety makes his way into our heart, and without our knowledge and against our will we are drawn away from the best intentions.

    Chapter 4

    How there is a twofold reason for the permission and allowance of God.

    But for God's permission and allowance there is a twofold reason. First, that being for a short time forsaken by the Lord, and observing with all humility the weakness of our own heart, we may not be puffed up on account of the previous purity of heart. granted to us by His visitation; and that by proving that when we are forsaken by Him we cannot possibly recover our former state of purity and delight by any groanings and efforts of our own, we may also learn that our previous gladness of heart resulted not from our own earnestness but from His gift, and that for the present time it must be sought once more from His grace and enlightenment. But a second reason for this allowance, is to prove our perseverance, and steadfastness of mind, and real desires, and to show in us, with what purpose of heart, or earnestness in prayer we seek for the return of the Holy Spirit, when He leaves us, and also in order that when we discover with what efforts we must seek for that spiritual gladness— when once it is lost— and the joy of purity, we may learn to preserve it more carefully, when once it is secured, and to hold it with firmer grasp. For men are generally more careless about keeping whatever they think can be easily replaced.

    Chapter 5

    How our efforts and exertions are of no use without God's help.

    And by this it is clearly shown that God's grace and mercy always work in us what is good, and that when it forsakes us, the efforts of the worker are useless, and that however earnestly a man may strive, he cannot regain his former condition without His help, and that this saying is constantly fulfilled in our case: that it is “not of him that wills or runs but of God which has mercy.” Romans 9:16 And this grace on the other hand sometimes does not refuse to visit with that holy inspiration of which you spoke, and with an abundance of spiritual thoughts, even the careless and indifferent; but inspires the unworthy, arouses the slumberers, and enlightens those who are blinded by ignorance, and mercifully reproves us and chastens us, shedding itself abroad in our hearts, that thus we may be stirred by the compunction which He excites, and impelled to rise from the sleep of sloth. Lastly we are often filled by His sudden visitation with sweet odours, beyond the power of human composition— so that the soul is ravished with these delights, and caught up, as it were, into an ecstasy of spirit, and becomes oblivious of the fact that it is still in the flesh.


    Offline songbird

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    What exactly does it mean to live lukewarm?
    « Reply #2 on: April 09, 2013, 10:54:42 PM »
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  • I read a book on "Lukewarmness".  It means going from a prayerful life to the point of stopping.  The I don't care attitude, or I would rather sleep in then go to Mass.  Some saints had dry spells but kept up on their prayerful life.  Lukewarmness is the devil working on you and if you give in, it can get to the point of mortal sin.  After that the devil works on you to the point of despair.  For the devil wants the soul to go to the point of ѕυιcιdє so that the devil earns a soul.  

    Offline shin

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    What exactly does it mean to live lukewarm?
    « Reply #3 on: April 09, 2013, 11:07:31 PM »
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  • It made me think of a priest's saying once that people go to Hell often enough not because they are especially wicked, but because they are insufficiently good.

    Very nice to see St. John Cassian and Desert Fathers quotes! The noonday demon of listlessness..

    I have tended to think of lukewarmness as simple lack of sufficient love and effort, but now I will have to look and try to find a real and proper definition of the vice.

    Sincerely,

    Shin

    'Flores apparuerunt in terra nostra. . . Fulcite me floribus.' (The flowers appear on the earth. . . stay me up with flowers. Sg 2:12,5)'-

    Offline Marlelar

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    What exactly does it mean to live lukewarm?
    « Reply #4 on: April 09, 2013, 11:24:02 PM »
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  • Lukewarm is being neither hot nor cold.  A person who doesn't love God but doesn't hate Him is lukewarm; it means not caring one way or the other.
    Rev 3:[15] I know thy works, that thou art neither cold, nor hot. I would thou wert cold, or hot. [16] But because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold, not hot, I will begin to vomit thee out of my mouth.  

    I think ecuмenism is also a good example of being lukewarm, to an ecuмaniac it doesn't matter what religion a person believes in they are all equally "good", ecuмaniacs don't care about ultimate truths but believe everyone is a "seeker" and on the "way" to truth  :faint:

    Marsha


    Offline InfiniteFaith

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    What exactly does it mean to live lukewarm?
    « Reply #5 on: April 10, 2013, 01:43:19 AM »
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  • Quote from: Marlelar
    Lukewarm is being neither hot nor cold.  A person who doesn't love God but doesn't hate Him is lukewarm; it means not caring one way or the other.
    Rev 3:[15] I know thy works, that thou art neither cold, nor hot. I would thou wert cold, or hot. [16] But because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold, not hot, I will begin to vomit thee out of my mouth.  

    I think ecuмenism is also a good example of being lukewarm, to an ecuмaniac it doesn't matter what religion a person believes in they are all equally "good", ecuмaniacs don't care about ultimate truths but believe everyone is a "seeker" and on the "way" to truth  :faint:

    Marsha


    In the third century, St. Clement of Alexandria wrote: “Before the coming of the Lord, philosophy was necessary for justification to the Greeks; now it is useful for piety . . . for it brought the Greeks to Christ as the Law did the Hebrews” (Miscellanies 1:5).

    “We have been taught that Christ is the first-begotten of God, and we have declared Him to be the Logos of which all mankind partakes (Jn. 1:9). Those, therefore, who lived according to reason [logos] were really Christians, even though they were thought to be atheists, such as, among the Greeks, Socrates, Heraclitus, and others like them . . . those who lived before Christ but did not live according to reason were wicked men, and enemies of Christ, and murderers of those who did live according to reason, whereas those who lived then or who live now according to reason are Christians. Such as these can be confident and unafraid” (Justin Martyr, First Apology 46).

    Offline Stubborn

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    What exactly does it mean to live lukewarm?
    « Reply #6 on: April 10, 2013, 06:14:53 AM »
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  • Quote from: Marlelar
    Lukewarm is being neither hot nor cold.  A person who doesn't love God but doesn't hate Him is lukewarm; it means not caring one way or the other.
    Rev 3:[15] I know thy works, that thou art neither cold, nor hot. I would thou wert cold, or hot. [16] But because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold, not hot, I will begin to vomit thee out of my mouth.  

    I think ecuмenism is also a good example of being lukewarm, to an ecuмaniac it doesn't matter what religion a person believes in they are all equally "good", ecuмaniacs don't care about ultimate truths but believe everyone is a "seeker" and on the "way" to truth  :faint:

    Marsha



    Good post and yes, [false] ecuмenism is a good example. Modernism breeds lukewarmness.

    When one is lukewarm he is indifferent - "neither hot or cold" - i.e. being middle of the road, no real conviction one way or the other - or saying one thing then doing the other.

    Either the new mass or the True Mass is fine, and there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church, yet some outside might be saved, are a few examples of being lukewarm.




    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline TKGS

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    What exactly does it mean to live lukewarm?
    « Reply #7 on: April 10, 2013, 08:15:39 AM »
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  • Lukewarmness is the heart and soul of Modernism.  It is the idea that no one can "impose" his beliefs upon anyone else and that everyone has the right to believe whatever doctrine one wishes.  Such people cannot even bear to hear the truth and, in fact, will be indignant that someone dare tell them something they don't want to hear.  They will actually condemn the truth-teller as "intollerant" or "bigotted".  

    The lukewarm soul doesn't care if you wish to privately hold any view, but considers the greatest sin to be expressing a view that conflicts with his own or, even more so, living his life as if such "private views" actually matters.

    Ecuмenism is indeed the most visible and easy example of the lukewarm soul.


    Offline Agobard

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    What exactly does it mean to live lukewarm?
    « Reply #8 on: April 11, 2013, 03:08:45 PM »
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  • Quote from: TKGS
    Lukewarmness is the heart and soul of Modernism.  It is the idea that no one can "impose" his beliefs upon anyone else and that everyone has the right to believe whatever doctrine one wishes.  Such people cannot even bear to hear the truth and, in fact, will be indignant that someone dare tell them something they don't want to hear.  They will actually condemn the truth-teller as "intollerant" or "bigotted".  

    The lukewarm soul doesn't care if you wish to privately hold any view, but considers the greatest sin to be expressing a view that conflicts with his own or, even more so, living his life as if such "private views" actually matters.

    Ecuмenism is indeed the most visible and easy example of the lukewarm soul.


    Perfectly stated. The reason why life in the modern world is worse than Pagan Rome.