Author Topic: What do you consider a guitar mess? (Read 2023 times)

Malleus · « **on:** February 07, 2015, 11:50:43 PM »

Does the mere fact that a guitar is used for the songs in the new mess make it a "guitar mass"?

PerEvangelicaDicta · « **Reply #1 on:** February 08, 2015, 12:20:15 AM »

Pope St Pius X - Instruction on Sacred Music http://www.adoremus.org/MotuProprio.html

The quote below is from a Michael Hoffman essay. Use of guitar is addressed in #5 Malleus.

Quote

The Church's doctrine on liturgical music can be summarized in seven points (all of the footnoted citations are quoted later in this paper):

Types of Music Appropriate for the Mass. The music of the Mass and the Sacred Liturgy of the must be either Gregorian Chant, or must be similar to Gregorian Chant. The primary example of music similar to Gregorian Chant is Sacred Polyphony, exemplified by the compositions of Palestrina.2

Characteristics of Music Appropriate for the Mass. The music of the Mass must have "grandeur yet simplicity; solemnity and majesty,"3 and must have "dignity,"4 and "gravity,"5 should be "exalted" and "sublime,"6 should bring "splendor and devotion"7 to the liturgy, and must be conducive to prayer and liturgical participation, rather than distracting the listener from prayer.8 It must be music that befits the profound nature of the Mass, which is the Sacrifice of Jesus Christ.9 As Pope Paul VI put it: "The primary purpose of sacred music is to evoke God's majesty and to honor it. But at the same time music is meant to be a solemn affirmation of the most genuine nobility of the human person, that of prayer."10

Types of Musical Instruments Appropriate for the Mass. The instrument that is most "directly" fitted for the Mass is the classical pipe organ.11 Other instruments, however, can be adapted to the Mass, including wind instruments,12 and smaller bowed instruments.13

Types of Music Prohibited in the Mass. All secular and entertainment styles of music are utterly prohibited in the Mass.14 The introduction of inappropriate music into the liturgy is regarded as "deplorable conduct."15

Types of Instruments Prohibited in the Mass. All "noisy or frivolous" instruments are prohibited for use in the Mass.16 The specific instruments named by the Popes have included guitars, pianos, drums, cymbals, and tambourines.17 "Bands" also are prohibited, as are all automated forms of music (recordings, automatic instruments, etc).18

Adapting Musical Traditions of Indigenous Cultures, and "Universality." The musical traditions of particular cultures can and should be incorporated into the Sacred Liturgy, but only in such a way that they will be recognized as sacred ("good" in the words of Pope St. Pius X) by people of all cultures. That is, all such music must have the characteristic of "universality."19

Preserving the Church's Musical Tradition. The treasury of the Church's sacred music is to be carefully preserved, rather than discarded.20

Malleus · « **Reply #2 on:** February 08, 2015, 01:15:12 AM »

Quote from: PerEvangelicaDicta

Pope St Pius X - Instruction on Sacred Music http://www.adoremus.org/MotuProprio.html

The quote below is from a Michael Hoffman essay. Use of guitar is addressed in #5 Malleus.

Quote
The Church's doctrine on liturgical music can be summarized in seven points (all of the footnoted citations are quoted later in this paper):

Types of Music Appropriate for the Mass. The music of the Mass and the Sacred Liturgy of the must be either Gregorian Chant, or must be similar to Gregorian Chant. The primary example of music similar to Gregorian Chant is Sacred Polyphony, exemplified by the compositions of Palestrina.2

Characteristics of Music Appropriate for the Mass. The music of the Mass must have "grandeur yet simplicity; solemnity and majesty,"3 and must have "dignity,"4 and "gravity,"5 should be "exalted" and "sublime,"6 should bring "splendor and devotion"7 to the liturgy, and must be conducive to prayer and liturgical participation, rather than distracting the listener from prayer.8 It must be music that befits the profound nature of the Mass, which is the Sacrifice of Jesus Christ.9 As Pope Paul VI put it: "The primary purpose of sacred music is to evoke God's majesty and to honor it. But at the same time music is meant to be a solemn affirmation of the most genuine nobility of the human person, that of prayer."10

Types of Musical Instruments Appropriate for the Mass. The instrument that is most "directly" fitted for the Mass is the classical pipe organ.11 Other instruments, however, can be adapted to the Mass, including wind instruments,12 and smaller bowed instruments.13

Types of Music Prohibited in the Mass. All secular and entertainment styles of music are utterly prohibited in the Mass.14 The introduction of inappropriate music into the liturgy is regarded as "deplorable conduct."15

Types of Instruments Prohibited in the Mass. All "noisy or frivolous" instruments are prohibited for use in the Mass.16 The specific instruments named by the Popes have included guitars, pianos, drums, cymbals, and tambourines.17 "Bands" also are prohibited, as are all automated forms of music (recordings, automatic instruments, etc).18

Adapting Musical Traditions of Indigenous Cultures, and "Universality." The musical traditions of particular cultures can and should be incorporated into the Sacred Liturgy, but only in such a way that they will be recognized as sacred ("good" in the words of Pope St. Pius X) by people of all cultures. That is, all such music must have the characteristic of "universality."19

Preserving the Church's Musical Tradition. The treasury of the Church's sacred music is to be carefully preserved, rather than discarded.20

Thanks for the quote, but I wasn't asking if guitars were allowed during Mass, but instead if the mere use of them in songs in the Novus Ordo mess would be considered a guitar mass.

That Hoffman quote is interesting though. Could you give me the original source for the quote? The link doesn't mention guitars. I have looked before for a direct mention of guitars in a papal quote, to no avail, so Hoffman saying Popes have actually mentioned them specifically makes me really want to see it.

PerEvangelicaDicta · « **Reply #3 on:** February 08, 2015, 01:40:07 AM »

Forgive me Malleus. It is Matthew Hoffman.

http://www.matthewhoffman.net/music/

TKGS · « **Reply #4 on:** February 08, 2015, 05:25:02 AM »

The answer to your question is, yes. When a guitar is used as a musical instrument at a Novus Ordo service for the songs sung by the congregation, it is generally considered a "guitar Mass". Even the priests and performers generally use that term. I've seen bulletins list a particular service (usually, the Saturday night service) as a "guitar Mass".

Did you think it meant something else?

Malleus · « **Reply #5 on:** February 08, 2015, 09:15:11 AM »

Quote from: TKGS

The answer to your question is, yes. When a guitar is used as a musical instrument at a Novus Ordo service for the songs sung by the congregation, it is generally considered a "guitar Mass". Even the priests and performers generally use that term. I've seen bulletins list a particular service (usually, the Saturday night service) as a "guitar Mass".

Did you think it meant something else?

Yeah, because when i used to go and a guitar was used, they never called it a guitar mass, nor did they announce it in the bulletin or things like that. It's like it's so common now to use one that it doesn't even get mentioned. They think guitars are totally appropriate and that using them is a great thing even.

That's why i thought maybe the priest himself had to be using a guitar or there had to be a lot of guitars or i don't know something more bizarre had to happen for it to be considered such.

Malleus · « **Reply #6 on:** February 08, 2015, 09:23:11 AM »

Quote from: PerEvangelicaDicta

Forgive me Malleus. It is Matthew Hoffman.
http://www.matthewhoffman.net/music/

Thanks a lot.

Malleus · « **Reply #7 on:** February 08, 2015, 10:51:17 AM »

Quote from: PerEvangelicaDicta

Forgive me Malleus. It is Matthew Hoffman.
http://www.matthewhoffman.net/music/

I checked the sources given in footnote 17 and none of them mentioned the guitar by name. I couldn't locate Pope Benedict XIV's encyclical but I'm not sure if guitars as they exist today existed in his time.

TKGS · « **Reply #8 on:** February 08, 2015, 12:11:49 PM »

Quote from: Malleus

Quote from: TKGS
The answer to your question is, yes. When a guitar is used as a musical instrument at a Novus Ordo service for the songs sung by the congregation, it is generally considered a "guitar Mass". Even the priests and performers generally use that term. I've seen bulletins list a particular service (usually, the Saturday night service) as a "guitar Mass".

Did you think it meant something else?

Yeah, because when i used to go and a guitar was used, they never called it a guitar mass, nor did they announce it in the bulletin or things like that. It's like it's so common now to use one that it doesn't even get mentioned. They think guitars are totally appropriate and that using them is a great thing even.

That's why i thought maybe the priest himself had to be using a guitar or there had to be a lot of guitars or i don't know something more bizarre had to happen for it to be considered such.

You are right that they no longer think there is anything unusual or even notable about having a guitar at the Novus Ordo services. In the 1960s it was often called the "Folk Mass" and the music was generally hippie sounding music.

PG · « **Reply #9 on:** February 08, 2015, 09:47:53 PM »

I play the classical guitar(mainly because I was raised playing guitars) and the flute, and I find it strange that Pius x would mention the guitar in general terms specifically(as not allowed), yet allow a small bowed instrument(the fiddle). Yes, the modern guitar(even during pius x time was a profane modern instrument). But, in the guitar family of instruments, there are some legitimate candidates(small baroque guitar). And, you can construct it in such a way to be in my opinion acceptable. The modern fishing line nylon strings with technologically advanced metal wrapped strings and metal frets are certainly modern and a "no go". But, an older more traditional guitar or instrument like it(lute) can have gut strings(like the acceptable bowed instrument) and frets made of gut. This was the traditional setup. It even says in the mass "Confitebor tibi in cithara" - "I will praise thee on the harp". In essence saying, "I will praise thee on the plucked instrument". And, the guitar is definitely a descendant of the harp. And, that is in the very mass itself.

It is good that pius x brought sacred music to our attention, but I think that this one got past him. The bowed instrument is not free of criticism either with sayings like - "the devil rides on a fiddle stick". Yet, pius x approved of it. There is plenty of talk of what is appropriate at mass with many fiercely insisting that the pipe organ be used. But almost all, if not all of the pipe organs being used for masses are computerized and electrified modern contraptions. Fr. Cekada is currently even begging for funds for a new organ because theirs is not technologically advanced enough(that is his punch line - 30 year old electric outdated technology is unbecoming). I guess what I am saying is, people are missing the point.

In sum, it would be very easy to construct a traditional 2 octave(the same as the human voice) guitar type instrument to rival the accepted fiddle to accompany holy mass.

Lighthouse · « **Reply #10 on:** February 08, 2015, 10:15:22 PM »

Maybe, like this:

PG · « **Reply #11 on:** February 08, 2015, 10:59:34 PM »

lighthouse - that is the king of the lutes, the theorbo. Stravinsky(a famous composer and pianist) said that the lute was perhaps the most perfect and personal instrument of them all. It is basically a guitar with a bowl shaped back.

PG · « **Reply #12 on:** February 08, 2015, 11:33:23 PM »

"The flute and the psaltery make a sweet melody, but a pleasant tongue is above them both" - ecclus. xl. 21.

The psaltery referred to in this scripture passage is a plucked instrument like the zither. A zither has stings and a sound box like a guitar. I repeat, like a guitar. I think that pius x position was such for pastoral reasons(convenience and there likely being no immediate precedence in tradition). Yet, it is found in tradition, and I would like to experience it supporting/alongside suitable chant. Variety and a lack of pipe organs is not the problem. The problem is that people do not have the spirit of God. They do not have the faith. That is the problem. That is why the NO lacks solemnity, dignity, and all the other qualities pius x stated as desirous.

Malleus · « **Reply #13 on:** February 09, 2015, 12:35:17 AM »

Malleus · « **Reply #14 on:** February 09, 2015, 12:51:41 AM »

Quote from: + PG +

I play the classical guitar(mainly because I was raised playing guitars) and the flute, and I find it strange that Pius x would mention the guitar in general terms specifically(as not allowed)

But he didn't mention it; all I have seen is people saying the guitar is included, but no actual mention of it in any docuмent.

The couple of times I have asked if guitars were specifically forbidden I have been directed to Tra le Sollecitudini, and that docuмent doesn't mention them.

You'd think that if it was ever really mentioned by name, someone would unhesitatingly show the quote, what with all the guitar messes around, but they never do.

Quote from: + PG +

Yes, the modern guitar(even during pius x time was a profane modern instrument).

Why do you say this?

Quote from: + PG +

But almost all, if not all of the pipe organs being used for masses are computerized and electrified modern contraptions. Fr. Cekada is currently even begging for funds for a new organ because theirs is not technologically advanced enough(that is his punch line - 30 year old electric outdated technology is unbecoming).

How did this come about? Musica Sacra (1958) merely tolerates temporarily electric organs if a pipe one can't be obtained.

Quote

64. As a substitute, the electronic organ may be tolerated temporarily for liturgical functions, if the means for obtaining even a small pipe organ are not available. In each case, however, the explicit permission of the local Ordinary is required. He, on his part, should consult the diocesan commission on sacred music, and others trained in this field, who can make suggestions for rendering such an instrument more suitable for sacred use.