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Author Topic: What are the limits of our obedience to the legitimate government?  (Read 597 times)

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Offline forlorn

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What are the limits of our obedience to the legitimate government?
« on: October 07, 2018, 04:49:41 PM »
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    • I'm not referring to the US government here, just hypothetically speaking. My Catechism says we are to generally obey our government and its laws(render unto Caesar what is Caesar's and what not), but there have been times in history when the Catholic Church openly supported rebellious movements against the governments of various countries(best example I can think of right now is General Franco, may he rest in peace). So what are the requirements for disobedience and even rebellion to not be sinful? 
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    Offline rosenley

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    Re: What are the limits of our obedience to the legitimate government?
    « Reply #1 on: October 07, 2018, 06:53:21 PM »
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    • I have no formal education on the topic, but I hope I can provide an adequate answer.

    St. Augustine famously said "lex iniusta non est lex," or, "an unjust law is no law at all." But, that still begs the question, What is an unjust law? According to Aquinas, an unjust law is any human law that isn't rooted in or contradicts natural law or divine law (Eternal law). Human law is any positive law made by man and possesses dual potentiality for legality and illegality. Illegal human laws are synonymous with unjust laws. However, all unjust laws don't have to be human laws.

    Unjust laws, however, must be opposed openly, and the punishment for the said law must be accepted graciously.
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    "If the Revolution is disorder, the Counter-Revolution is the restoration of order. And by order we mean the peace of Christ in the Reign of Christ, that is, Christian civilization, austere and hierarchical, fundamentally sacral, antiegalitarian, and antiliberal." - Dr. Plinio Corrêa de Oliveira

    Offline forlorn

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    Re: What are the limits of our obedience to the legitimate government?
    « Reply #2 on: October 08, 2018, 02:15:41 PM »
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    • Quote from: rosenley on October 07, 2018, 06:53:21 PM
    I have no formal education on the topic, but I hope I can provide an adequate answer.

    St. Augustine famously said "lex iniusta non est lex," or, "an unjust law is no law at all." But, that still begs the question, What is an unjust law? According to Aquinas, an unjust law is any human law that isn't rooted in or contradicts natural law or divine law (Eternal law). Human law is any positive law made by man and possesses dual potentiality for legality and illegality. Illegal human laws are synonymous with unjust laws. However, all unjust laws don't have to be human laws.

    Unjust laws, however, must be opposed openly, and the punishment for the said law must be accepted graciously.
    Thank you very much. 
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    Offline 800 Cruiser

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    Re: What are the limits of our obedience to the legitimate government?
    « Reply #3 on: October 08, 2018, 03:28:49 PM »
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    • Are you aware of any unjust laws that we must openly oppose?
    What if by doing so it takes us (men) away from fulfilling our roles as fathers?
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    Offline Cera

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    Re: What are the limits of our obedience to the legitimate government?
    « Reply #4 on: October 08, 2018, 06:20:10 PM »
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    • Quote from: 800 Cruiser on October 08, 2018, 03:28:49 PM
    Are you aware of any unjust laws that we must openly oppose?
    What if by doing so it takes us (men) away from fulfilling our roles as fathers?
    A law which permits the killing of innocent babies in the womb is an unjust law. Openly opposing it can be as simple as a weekly rosary in front of an abortion place.
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    Pray for the consecration of Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary

    Offline rosenley

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    Re: What are the limits of our obedience to the legitimate government?
    « Reply #5 on: October 08, 2018, 06:59:36 PM »
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    • Quote from: 800 Cruiser on October 08, 2018, 03:28:49 PM
    Are you aware of any unjust laws that we must openly oppose?
    What if by doing so it takes us (men) away from fulfilling our roles as fathers?
    In the military, if an officer (or any superior) were to command the demolition of a Church, that would be an unjust law. Any Catholic would be obligated to disobey this order, and accept the repercussions (dishonourable discharge, jail time, execution) graciously.
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    "If the Revolution is disorder, the Counter-Revolution is the restoration of order. And by order we mean the peace of Christ in the Reign of Christ, that is, Christian civilization, austere and hierarchical, fundamentally sacral, antiegalitarian, and antiliberal." - Dr. Plinio Corrêa de Oliveira

    Offline poche

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    Re: What are the limits of our obedience to the legitimate government?
    « Reply #6 on: October 09, 2018, 11:21:28 PM »
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    • From the Baltimore Catechism;

    Q. 1259. What are we commanded by the fourth Commandment?
    A. We are commanded by the fourth Commandment to honor, love and obey our parents in all that is not sin.
         
    Q. 1260. Why should we refuse to obey parents or superiors who command us to sin?
    A. We should refuse to obey parents or superiors who command us to sin because they are not then acting with God's authority, but contrary to it and in violation of His laws.
        
    Q. 1266. If parents or superiors neglect their duty or abuse their authority in any particular, should we follow their direction and example in that particular?
    A. If parents or superiors neglect their duty or abuse their authority in any particular we should not follow their direction or example in that particular, but follow the dictates of our conscience in the performance of our duty.

    https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/resources/catechism/baltimore-catechism/lesson-33-from-the-fourth-to-the-seventh-commandment
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