Author Topic: What's with the Dimond brothers?  (Read 2105 times)

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Offline forlorn

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Re: What's with the Dimond brothers?
« Reply #45 on: April 14, 2018, 05:57:38 PM »
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  • How can a muslim be saved?
    I don't believe in BOD. 

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: What's with the Dimond brothers?
    « Reply #46 on: April 14, 2018, 06:41:30 PM »
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  • I mean that people who believe it believe that the Church teaches it, and indeed many clergy and even Popes have believed in BOD.

    Yeah, but no Doctor or Church Father or Pope ever taught a form of BoD that would allow infidels to be saved.    They believed in BoD as efficacious only for those who were Catholic in every other way except for the in re reception of the Sacrament.  That's the distinction I always make.

    If someone believes in BoD as St. Thomas did, I personally would not even characterize that as an "error".  I would disagree and think it a mistaken piece of speculative theology.


    Offline forlorn

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    Re: What's with the Dimond brothers?
    « Reply #47 on: April 14, 2018, 07:26:49 PM »
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  • Yeah, but no Doctor or Church Father or Pope ever taught a form of BoD that would allow infidels to be saved.    They believed in BoD as efficacious only for those who were Catholic in every other way except for the in re reception of the Sacrament.  That's the distinction I always make.

    If someone believes in BoD as St. Thomas did, I personally would not even characterize that as an "error".  I would disagree and think it a mistaken piece of speculative theology.
    By their approval of beliefs that allowed people outside of the Church to be saved, they opened the gates for modern clergymen to fling open the gates to all infidels. Now we're stuck with the V2 Popes saying "It doesn't matter if one is Catholic". 

    The belief that Jews, Muslims, etc. can be saved is certainly heresy, but the failure of pre-V2 Popes to condemn it while it was running rampant among the clergy, and the support given to it by post-V2 Popes, means that a Catholic who believes it probably thinks that's what the Church teaches. So it probably isn't a formal heresy in most cases. 

    Offline trad123

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    Re: What's with the Dimond brothers?
    « Reply #48 on: April 14, 2018, 07:30:44 PM »
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  • the failure of pre-V2 Popes to condemn it while it was running rampant among the clergy, and the support given to it by post-V2 Popes, means that a Catholic who believes it probably thinks that's what the Church teaches. So it probably isn't a formal heresy in most cases.

    /thread
    2 Corinthians 4:3-4

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: What's with the Dimond brothers?
    « Reply #49 on: April 14, 2018, 07:44:31 PM »
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  • By their approval of beliefs that allowed people outside of the Church to be saved, they opened the gates for modern clergymen to fling open the gates to all infidels. Now we're stuck with the V2 Popes saying "It doesn't matter if one is Catholic".

    The belief that Jews, Muslims, etc. can be saved is certainly heresy, but the failure of pre-V2 Popes to condemn it while it was running rampant among the clergy, and the support given to it by post-V2 Popes, means that a Catholic who believes it probably thinks that's what the Church teaches. So it probably isn't a formal heresy in most cases.

    That's always hard to say.  Lots of people RATIONALIZE things to themselves because it's what they WANT to  believe, whereas if they had sincerely sought the truth with a good will and with docility to the Holy Spirit, they would have been led to the truth.  Only God can sort them out.  What I objected to was your choice of words that it's "at the most" material heresy.  At the most it's formal heresy.  What you meant is that in most cases you think it's probably only material.  But I see that as not my problem to figure out ... leave that to God.  I will just continue pointing out that it's heresy.


    Offline sedevacantist3

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    Re: What's with the Dimond brothers?
    « Reply #50 on: April 14, 2018, 10:10:26 PM »
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  • By their approval of beliefs that allowed people outside of the Church to be saved, they opened the gates for modern clergymen to fling open the gates to all infidels. Now we're stuck with the V2 Popes saying "It doesn't matter if one is Catholic".

    The belief that Jews, Muslims, etc. can be saved is certainly heresy, but the failure of pre-V2 Popes to condemn it while it was running rampant among the clergy, and the support given to it by post-V2 Popes, means that a Catholic who believes it probably thinks that's what the Church teaches. So it probably isn't a formal heresy in most cases.
    Which pre vat 2 popes are you referring to? Which writings of pre vat 2 speak to muslims or jews being saved?

    Offline forlorn

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    Re: What's with the Dimond brothers?
    « Reply #51 on: April 15, 2018, 10:29:55 AM »
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  • Which pre vat 2 popes are you referring to? Which writings of pre vat 2 speak to muslims or jews being saved?
    I didn't say that at all. What I said is that pre-Vat 2 Popes approved beliefs that allowed people outside the Church to be saved(Pope Pius IX taught invincible ignorance and Pope Pius XII believed unbaptised infants are saved), while also failing to condemn the rampant heresy among their clergy that other non-Catholics can be saved. EENS used to be very simple, NO ONE outside the Church can be saved whatsoever. But by those Popes expanding EENS to include people who are outside the Church, they justified modernist heretics to start teaching that others outside the Church could be saved too. And they failed to condemn those beliefs. 
    Now we're stuck with post Vat 2 Popes who actively support the belief that muslims and jews can be saved, with Francis even saying that "It doesn't matter if one is Catholic." 
    I would not blame the average Catholic layman for thinking BOD is what the Church teaches. It is the fault of the Church for failing to condemn heresies among its own ranks that led to Vatican 2 in the first place, where they proceeded to embrace all those heresies. 

    Offline sedevacantist3

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    Re: What's with the Dimond brothers?
    « Reply #52 on: April 15, 2018, 01:19:57 PM »
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  • I didn't say that at all. What I said is that pre-Vat 2 Popes approved beliefs that allowed people outside the Church to be saved(Pope Pius IX taught invincible ignorance and Pope Pius XII believed unbaptised infants are saved), while also failing to condemn the rampant heresy among their clergy that other non-Catholics can be saved. EENS used to be very simple, NO ONE outside the Church can be saved whatsoever. But by those Popes expanding EENS to include people who are outside the Church, they justified modernist heretics to start teaching that others outside the Church could be saved too. And they failed to condemn those beliefs.
    Now we're stuck with post Vat 2 Popes who actively support the belief that muslims and jews can be saved, with Francis even saying that "It doesn't matter if one is Catholic."
    I would not blame the average Catholic layman for thinking BOD is what the Church teaches. It is the fault of the Church for failing to condemn heresies among its own ranks that led to Vatican 2 in the first place, where they proceeded to embrace all those heresies.
    Pope Pius IX didn’t teach non catholics are saved through invincible ignorance, we can argue that point if you like. Can you give me the quote of Pope Pius XII teaching unbaptized children are saved? I thank you in advance.


    Offline forlorn

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    Re: What's with the Dimond brothers?
    « Reply #53 on: April 15, 2018, 01:51:51 PM »
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  • Pope Pius IX didn’t teach non catholics are saved through invincible ignorance, we can argue that point if you like. Can you give me the quote of Pope Pius XII teaching unbaptized children are saved? I thank you in advance.
    Sorry I misremembered entirely. What he said was very different and I apologise for the mistake, but still a form of BOD. He said unbaptised infants are NOT saved, but that an unbaptised ADULT can be saved through an act of love. So still saying that baptism is not necessary, and a less extreme form of BOD.
    Quote
    An act of love is sufficient for the adult to obtain sanctifying grace and to supply the lack of baptism
    https://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/P511029.HTM

     

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