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Offline roscoe

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Re: What's with the Dimond brothers?
« Reply #30 on: April 12, 2018, 09:59:24 PM »
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  • Hey, boy, you're fixin' to get destroyed by Ladislaus and Cantarella. :laugh1:
    Don't forget moi. Any piece of paper calling Fr Feeney to Rome or ex-communicating him 4 not complying is a Fraud. And btw-- there is NO SUCH THING as a 'Feeneyite'... :cheers:
    There Is No Such Thing As 'Sede Vacantism'...
    nor is there such thing as a 'Feeneyite' or 'Feeneyism'

    Offline roscoe

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    Re: What's with the Dimond brothers?
    « Reply #31 on: April 13, 2018, 12:16:14 AM »
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  • QUOTE FUNCTION HAS NEVER BEEN WORKING PROPERLY W/ NEW SOFTWARE. :cussing:
    There Is No Such Thing As 'Sede Vacantism'...
    nor is there such thing as a 'Feeneyite' or 'Feeneyism'


    Offline Green

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    Re: What's with the Dimond brothers?
    « Reply #32 on: April 13, 2018, 05:22:33 AM »
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  • Dimond brothers are setting up something that isnt De Fide to be so, condemning others who don't.
    To quote from their website: "There is only one baptism, which is celebrated in water (de fide)." I won't bother linking to that poisonous well.
    What is De Fide? "A term meaning "of Faith," used to identify those doctrines of the Church which are infallibly true."

    According to original 1952 'Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma' by Ludwig Ott (Priest and Prof. in Dogmatics) which has a Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur given in 1954, Baptism of Desire is a doctrine that is sententia fidei proxima which means "A Teaching proximate to Faith (sententia fidei proxima) is a doctrine, which is regarded by theologians generally as a truth of Revelation. but which have not yet been finally promulgated as such by the Church."

    Something that contradicts this would be censured as "a Proposition Proximate to Heresy (propositio heresi proxima) which signifies that the proposition is opposed to a truth which is proximate to the Faith (Sent. fidei proxima)", that is, an opinion approaching heresy.

    Pope Innocent III "Apostolicam Sedem" to the Bishop of Cremona on the subject of Baptism of Desire:

    To your inquiry we respond thus: We assert without hesitation (on the authority of the holy Fathers Augustine and Ambrose) that the priest whom you indicated (in your letter) had died without the water of baptism, because he persevered in the faith of holy mother the Church and in the confession of the name of Christ, was freed from original sin and attained the joy of the heavenly fatherland. Read, brother, in the eighth book of Augustine's "City of God" * where among other things it is written, "Baptism is ministered invisibly to one whom not contempt of religion but death excludes." Read again the book also of the blessed Ambrose concerning the death of Valentinian where he says the same thing. Therefore, to questions concerning the dead, you should hold the opinions of the learned Fathers' and in your church you should join in prayers and you should have sacrifices offered to God for the priest mentioned."
    - Denzinger's "The Sources of Catholic Dogma"  Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur 1955






    Offline forlorn

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    Re: What's with the Dimond brothers?
    « Reply #33 on: April 13, 2018, 07:56:53 AM »
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  • Dimond brothers are setting up something that isnt De Fide to be so, condemning others who don't.
    To quote from their website: "There is only one baptism, which is celebrated in water (de fide)." I won't bother linking to that poisonous well.
    What is De Fide? "A term meaning "of Faith," used to identify those doctrines of the Church which are infallibly true."

    According to original 1952 'Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma' by Ludwig Ott (Priest and Prof. in Dogmatics) which has a Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur given in 1954, Baptism of Desire is a doctrine that is sententia fidei proxima which means "A Teaching proximate to Faith (sententia fidei proxima) is a doctrine, which is regarded by theologians generally as a truth of Revelation. but which have not yet been finally promulgated as such by the Church."

    Something that contradicts this would be censured as "a Proposition Proximate to Heresy (propositio heresi proxima) which signifies that the proposition is opposed to a truth which is proximate to the Faith (Sent. fidei proxima)", that is, an opinion approaching heresy.

    Pope Innocent III "Apostolicam Sedem" to the Bishop of Cremona on the subject of Baptism of Desire:

    To your inquiry we respond thus: We assert without hesitation (on the authority of the holy Fathers Augustine and Ambrose) that the priest whom you indicated (in your letter) had died without the water of baptism, because he persevered in the faith of holy mother the Church and in the confession of the name of Christ, was freed from original sin and attained the joy of the heavenly fatherland. Read, brother, in the eighth book of Augustine's "City of God" * where among other things it is written, "Baptism is ministered invisibly to one whom not contempt of religion but death excludes." Read again the book also of the blessed Ambrose concerning the death of Valentinian where he says the same thing. Therefore, to questions concerning the dead, you should hold the opinions of the learned Fathers' and in your church you should join in prayers and you should have sacrifices offered to God for the priest mentioned."
    - Denzinger's "The Sources of Catholic Dogma"  Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur 1955
    While their conclusion is debateable, their quote is completely accurate. The fact that there is one baptism to be celebrated only in natural water is de fide. It has been repeated in numerous councils including Trent. BOD advocates work their way around this, and perhaps they are correct and BOD is true, but that doesn't change the fact that their quote is 100% correct in its assertion that the one baptism of water is de fide. 

    Offline Hank Igitur Orate Fratre

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    Re: What's with the Dimond brothers?
    « Reply #34 on: April 13, 2018, 01:39:07 PM »
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  • While their conclusion is debateable, their quote is completely accurate. The fact that there is one baptism to be celebrated only in natural water is de fide. It has been repeated in numerous councils including Trent. BOD advocates work their way around this, and perhaps they are correct and BOD is true, but that doesn't change the fact that their quote is 100% correct in its assertion that the one baptism of water is de fide.
    Do you believe that Catholics who believe in Baptism of Desire & Baptism of Blood are going to be saved? 


    Offline forlorn

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    Re: What's with the Dimond brothers?
    « Reply #35 on: April 13, 2018, 02:14:41 PM »
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  • Do you believe that Catholics who believe in Baptism of Desire & Baptism of Blood are going to be saved?
    I don't believe they'll be damned for it. It's speculative theology that I don't agree with. The most extreme form of BOD, the one where non-invincibly ignorant Muslims etc. can be saved, does come close to denying EENS, but I'd still regard it as material heresy at worst.

    Offline Hank Igitur Orate Fratre

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    Re: What's with the Dimond brothers?
    « Reply #36 on: April 13, 2018, 03:53:29 PM »
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  • I don't believe they'll be damned for it. It's speculative theology that I don't agree with. The most extreme form of BOD, the one where non-invincibly ignorant Muslims etc. can be saved, does come close to denying EENS, but I'd still regard it as material heresy at worst.
    Thank you for your prompt and courteous reply. Do you believe that Novus Ordo people will either be damned or in Purgatory longer than (Traditional) Catholics? 

    Offline forlorn

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    Re: What's with the Dimond brothers?
    « Reply #37 on: April 13, 2018, 04:26:45 PM »
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  • Thank you for your prompt and courteous reply. Do you believe that Novus Ordo people will either be damned or in Purgatory longer than (Traditional) Catholics?
    I don't know, if I'm being perfectly honest. I assume by Traditional Catholics you also mean SSPX, etc. who recognise the V2 Popes but resist what Vatican 2 has done to the Church nonetheless. Correct me if I'm wrong.

    Certainly the Novus Ordo Church, its lax attitudes, and ecumenism lead people to modernism, moral relativism and disregarding Catholic dogma, which would then put their souls in grave danger. But just going to Novus Ordo masses and living out a normal Catholic life, unaware of the crisis in the Church and thinking everything's going on fine as before - would that incur such consequences? Obviously praying with and attending mass celebrated by heretics is sinful, and even people who recognise the V2 Popes are well aware the Church is full to the brim with modernist heretics these days, but if someone were to do it blissfully unaware that they were - would it be mortally sinful(it would seem to lack full culpability)? These are questions I certainly don't have the knowledge to answer, and that I doubt could be definitely answered except by the Pope. And well that's the issue, I believe in this time of Great Apostasy that there is no Pope to do that.

    Comparisons could be drawn to Catholics going to mass in dioceses in communion with anti-popes in the past, yet the situation was different as there was always a true Pope present at each of those times.

    So in conclusion, although calling it that is inaccurate since nothing I've said is conclusive, I believe that since there is no true Pope or Church to condemn the Novus Ordo Mass or invalidly ordained priests under V2, Catholics would not be guilty of mortally sinning for attending it(as it would not be performed in full knowledge). Therefore they would not be damned for it, and they'd rely on their own faith and works for salvation just as a Traditional Catholic would. As for Penance, I believe Vatican 2 Priests are invalid and therefore their sacraments are too, however Penance can be received in desire so again they would not necessarily be damned for lack of valid Priests. Those are just my rather uneducated opinions though, this crisis is unprecedented and it's hard to compare it to historical events. It takes a greater mind than mine to speak on it.


    Offline sedevacantist3

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    Re: What's with the Dimond brothers?
    « Reply #38 on: April 14, 2018, 10:15:55 AM »
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  • I don't believe they'll be damned for it. It's speculative theology that I don't agree with. The most extreme form of BOD, the one where non-invincibly ignorant Muslims etc. can be saved, does come close to denying EENS, but I'd still regard it as material heresy at worst.
    How can a muslim be saved?

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: What's with the Dimond brothers?
    « Reply #39 on: April 14, 2018, 12:36:50 PM »
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  • I don't believe they'll be damned for it. It's speculative theology that I don't agree with. The most extreme form of BOD, the one where non-invincibly ignorant Muslims etc. can be saved, does come close to denying EENS, but I'd still regard it as material heresy at worst.

    No, it doesn't come "close" to denying EENS.  It's a clear rejection of EENS.  What do you mean material heresy at worst?  Are you using the term as being synonymous with being a "minor" heresy?  Material/Formal depends upon the will of the person adhering to it, and any heresy can be "at worst" formal.

    Offline trad123

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    Re: What's with the Dimond brothers?
    « Reply #40 on: April 14, 2018, 02:54:18 PM »
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  • Quote
    Dimond brothers are setting up something that isnt De Fide to be so, condemning others who don't.


    It is de fide that there is only one Baptism, but it is postulated by theologians that water Baptism, BOD, and BOD is something analogous to the Holy Trinity, three in one.

    I think it's rather that the Dimonds are condemning individuals for what has yet to be condemned.



    Quote
    According to original 1952 'Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma' by Ludwig Ott

    (. . .)

    Baptism of Desire is a doctrine that is sententia fidei proxima

    A crucial categorization.

    Of the 26 theologians compiled by Fr. Cekada, wasn't it only 7 who listed BOD as de fide?

    If it was de fide I don't think there would be a multitude of theological notes applied to the doctrine.




    Quote
    Pope Innocent III "Apostolicam Sedem" to the Bishop of Cremona


    A perfect example of a pope teaching error in a letter, as a private individual.

    This should be discussed in the  "Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?thread.

    An example of the difference between teaching privately and bringing forth a matter of faith and morals, presented to the Universal Church for belief.


    BOD started with Augustine, and it's going to end with Augustine.
    2 Corinthians 4:3-4

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.


    Offline trad123

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    Re: What's with the Dimond brothers?
    « Reply #41 on: April 14, 2018, 02:56:35 PM »
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  • This thread should probably be moved to the Baptism of Desire sub-forum. I can already see the discussion turning towards that direction.
    2 Corinthians 4:3-4

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline trad123

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    Re: What's with the Dimond brothers?
    « Reply #42 on: April 14, 2018, 03:02:42 PM »
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  • I don't believe they'll be damned for it. It's speculative theology that I don't agree with. The most extreme form of BOD, the one where non-invincibly ignorant Muslims etc. can be saved, does come close to denying EENS, but I'd still regard it as material heresy at worst.

    I'm with Lad, it does, despite the notion that such individuals may be united to the the soul of the Church in actuality, and the body by desire.
    Not only EENS, but it wreaks havoc on the visibility of the Church.

    Is BOD postulated as an at death type of grace or that such individuals are in a state of grace while publicly adhering to an entirely different religion?
    2 Corinthians 4:3-4

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline trad123

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    Re: What's with the Dimond brothers?
    « Reply #43 on: April 14, 2018, 03:54:42 PM »
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  • All sides would submit if we had recourse to the Church; to a pope.

    That 1953 letter ain't cutting it.

    The reason why priests deny communion to those who do not believe in BOD is because of the theological note applied by a number of theologians to BOD. That rejection of such a class of doctrine is a mortal sin against the faith.

    But, do these same priests hold as St. Alphonsus does that all who die as non-Catholics are damned?

    No.

    These are strange times we live in.

    I don't think there is any obligation to believe in BOD. Recourse is had to St. Augustine. He started it. He ended it.

    http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/15083.htm

    Chapter 13


    Quote
    If you wish to be a catholic, do not venture to believe, to say, or to teach that "they whom the Lord has predestinated for baptism can be snatched away from his predestination, or die before that has been accomplished in them which the Almighty has predestined." There is in such a dogma more power than I can tell assigned to chances in opposition to the power of God, by the occurrence of which casualties that which He has predestinated is not permitted to come to pass. It is hardly necessary to spend time or earnest words in cautioning the man who takes up with this error against the absolute vortex of confusion into which it will absorb him, when I shall sufficiently meet the case if I briefly warn the prudent man who is ready to receive correction against the threatening mischief. Now these are your words: "We say that some such method as this must be had recourse to in the case of infants who, being predestinated for baptism, are yet, by the failing of this life, hurried away before they are born again in Christ." Is it then really true that any who have been predestinated to baptism are forestalled before they come to it by the failing of this life? And could God predestinate anything which He either in His foreknowledge saw would not come to pass, or in ignorance knew not that it could not come to pass, either to the frustration of His purpose or the discredit of His foreknowledge? You see how many weighty remarks might be made on this subject; but I am restrained by the fact of having treated on it a little while ago, so that I content myself with this brief and passing admonition.

    Go back further and you'll find BOB with St. Cyprian, but not BOD. Sts. Augustine and Ambrose are the BOD pillar.
    2 Corinthians 4:3-4

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline forlorn

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    Re: What's with the Dimond brothers?
    « Reply #44 on: April 14, 2018, 05:56:59 PM »
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  • No, it doesn't come "close" to denying EENS.  It's a clear rejection of EENS.  What do you mean material heresy at worst?  Are you using the term as being synonymous with being a "minor" heresy?  Material/Formal depends upon the will of the person adhering to it, and any heresy can be "at worst" formal.
    I mean that people who believe it believe that the Church teaches it, and indeed many clergy and even Popes have believed in BOD.

     

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