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Offline Gwaredd Thomas

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We are in a real quandary!
« on: December 17, 2018, 06:27:30 PM »
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  • We've been members of a Traditional Chapel for well over 20 years. After we exhausted our supply of itinerant priests we had to figure out where to turn. We interviewed the heads of the Fraternity and the SSPX. Fr. Peter Scott was then the District Superior: it was a good time and so we went with the SSPX. Recently, a grave situation arose between myself and another parishioner. The man scammed us out of nearly $9000 because I had an accent with his ATV. I had never been on an ATV in my life. Nevertheless, he demanded full payment within one week or he would send it to his insurance legal department. We never stated that I was not responsible and that we would pay for it by making monthly payments: that wasn't good enough. In addition, he threatened me with a restraining order if I was to utter a word about this incident. The money he was paid was supposed to be used for the repairs which he never did. He fixed it himself and pocketed over $5000. I went to our current pastor and explained the situation and supplied him with all the documentation of this man's threats and intimation to get his money. His response: "there's nothing I can do about it". This man is the Sacristan a position I held for over 10 years. Now, I can't even go back into the Sacristy because this man stated that I was to have no contact with him either by "email, phone, looks, comments or gestures. He even used his local police department as a catspaw to buttress his complaints. But, as it turned out, this was all a lie since after speaking with a representative of his police department, they paid him a visit. All of a sudden he back off claiming he never said he was going to file a restraining order. The cops already had copies of all my correspondence: they were not pleased.

    Yet, this man walks about with a big silver cross displayed claiming he's a Third Order Franciscan. I checked with the national headquarters of the Franciscans and they never heard of him. Yet, he's protected by the SSPX and they have essentially tossed me under the bus because they don't want any "SCANDAL". My wife wrote a letter to the district office stating that this whole situation has destroyed my faith needless to day, she never heard back and I haven't been back to Church since. Conmen, thieves and liers are alright, but let us not have any "SCANDALS". God forbid. And here all along I was under the impression that these priests had a "thirst for souls". I have never received a call nor an email from out "pastor" wanting me to come back.

    I sincerely hope that I haven't bored anyone with this small dissertation but that's what life has become in the Neo-SSPX.
    Dduw bendithia chi! 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁷󠁬󠁳󠁿

    Offline Maria Regina

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    Re: We are in a real quandary!
    « Reply #1 on: December 17, 2018, 06:30:31 PM »
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  • An accident? Oh my.

    We had a problem similar to this, but one of our neighbors claimed that we had struck his vehicle with ours and that he had proof of the accident at 8 AM. We did not admit guilt as we were not even near his vehicle at the time he claimed the accident happened. In fact, we had gone to the gasoline station to put fuel in our car, and thankfully, we had a dated receipt with 8 AM on it. The gasoline station was about 10 minutes away.

    We ignored the neighbor, but about one year later, we started to get phone calls demanding that we pay $500.00 for repairs to his vehicle. These collection calls were coming twice a day. Then they claimed that they would take us to court.

    We contacted our insurance company and it turned out that his insurance company was the same as ours.  We told the insurance company that this was a scam. At first they did not believe us, so we contacted the local police department bunco division. They investigated as the neighbor was harassing us with these collection calls. With our receipt, we had a proven alibi.

    The insurance company got a copy of the police report, declared us innocent, and stopped the collection calls.

    Is there any way that you could contact his insurance company?

    Lord have mercy.


    Offline Gwaredd Thomas

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    Re: We are in a real quandary!
    « Reply #2 on: December 17, 2018, 08:04:43 PM »
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  • An accident? Oh my.

    We had a problem similar to this, but one of our neighbors claimed that we had struck his vehicle with ours and that he had proof of the accident at 8 AM. We did not admit guilt as we were not even near his vehicle at the time he claimed the accident happened. In fact, we had gone to the gasoline station to put fuel in our car, and thankfully, we had a dated receipt with 8 AM on it. The gasoline station was about 10 minutes away.

    We ignored the neighbor, but about one year later, we started to get phone calls demanding that we pay $500.00 for repairs to his vehicle. These collection calls were coming twice a day. Then they claimed that they would take us to court.

    We contacted our insurance company and it turned out that his insurance company was the same as ours.  We told the insurance company that this was a scam. At first they did not believe us, so we contacted the local police department bunco division. They investigated as the neighbor was harassing us with these collection calls. With our receipt, we had a proven alibi.

    The insurance company got a copy of the police report, declared us innocent, and stopped the collection calls.

    Is there any way that you could contact his insurance company?
    Maria,

    No, I can't contact the insurance company since it's too late. He already got his $9000 and he was relying on my ignorance of the law, therefore, the threats and intimidation. He knew full well what he was doing. I'm 70 years old, retired, and my wife suffered a stroke about six years ago. He knew all this but he didn't give a brass farthing. We had to take the money out of our home equity line and when I asked the bloke for a receipt for the repairs he told me to bugger off that the estimate was all I need for a receipt. What a sick, sick, joke since he never had it repaired in the first place. I just bumped into some pine bushes, I wasn't hurt but all he cared about was his machine. He cussed and swore at me and claimed that I had ruined his hunting season. I don't know how since he had another ATV. This blighter is a certified narcissist. And this from a phoney "Third Order Franciscan" and a Sacristan to add to the insult. But no help from the SSPX as they don't care either.
    Dduw bendithia chi! 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁷󠁬󠁳󠁿

    Offline tdrev123

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    Re: We are in a real quandary!
    « Reply #3 on: December 17, 2018, 08:21:55 PM »
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  • Maria,

    No, I can't contact the insurance company since it's too late. He already got his $9000 and he was relying on my ignorance of the law, therefore, the threats and intimidation. He knew full well what he was doing. I'm 70 years old, retired, and my wife suffered a stroke about six years ago. He knew all this but he didn't give a brass farthing. We had to take the money out of our home equity line and when I asked the bloke for a receipt for the repairs he told me to bugger off that the estimate was all I need for a receipt. What a sick, sick, joke since he never had it repaired in the first place. I just bumped into some pine bushes, I wasn't hurt but all he cared about was his machine. He cussed and swore at me and claimed that I had ruined his hunting season. I don't know how since he had another ATV. This blighter is a certified narcissist. And this from a phoney "Third Order Franciscan" and a Sacristan to add to the insult. But no help from the SSPX as they don't care either.
    Don't put your faith in men (sspx) put your faith in God.  He will be judged, and Hell is very hot this time of year.  People who scam the elderly are some of the worst scum of the world.  Trust in God, and talk to a lawyer about getting some of your $9,000 back.  Most ATV accidents are a couple thousand, I mean a brand new ATV is less than $9,000.  Maybe also tell other parishioners what happened and they can pressure him into giving you some of your money back.  The sspx might not help but your other parishioners could help.  Don't lose your faith, money is nothing, God's sight is forever.  

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: We are in a real quandary!
    « Reply #4 on: December 17, 2018, 09:28:46 PM »
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  • In my experience, the folks who tend to walk around Traditional chapels presenting themselves are religious, sometimes even wearing a habit, tend to have psychological issues.

    I've heard of people doing this kind of thing with insurance companies.  You make a claim and get an estimate for a certain amount, but then you pocket the money from the insurance company and never actually make the repairs, or else you perform substandard repairs and keep the difference.  I think that in more modern times, insurance companies probably have regulations where they pay out only to the service provider.

    But here I'm afraid that you're not going to like what I have to say.

    Now, if a PROPER repair to restore the ATV to its pre-accident state would have cost $9000, but the man chose to do the repairs himself and save the money, he's likely in strict justice entitled to the difference in compensation for his labor ... since the need for labor was also caused by the accident.  So it it actually would have cost him $9000 to have it fixed at a repair shop but cut $5000 off the actual price by doing the labor himself, he would still be entitled in strict justice to receive the full amount.

    Certainly this is contrary to CHARITY, since it's likely that his labor was not quite worth the $5,000 ... since the shop's labor rates are likely inflated due to overhead and other considerations.  So it's likely that he should not have been entitled to $5,000 for his labor, but rather something less than that, but he was trying to make a profit off the labor, and so in that way sinned against charity.

    But I'm not sure what you would have expected the priest to do.  He's not in a position to pursue a lawsuit; only you would be.  He should probably remove him from being a sacristan, since the man's behavior was not particularly edifying, and the people close to the Mass and the priest should lead somewhat exemplary lives.  So, for instance, someone committing adultery, should not be given a position of visibility in the chapel.  Is that what you would have had him do, remove him from being a sacristan?

    But even if the priest mishandled the situation, why would you end up hurting your own soul by not not receiving the Sacraments?  God will handle whatever justice needs to happen regarding this man, but you are responsible ultimately only for your own soul.


    Offline Seraphina

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    Re: We are in a real quandary!
    « Reply #5 on: December 17, 2018, 09:30:09 PM »
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  • Don't lose your Faith because of faithless people.  Trust in Our Lord Who is always faithful, and promises He will never leave us or forsake us.  The SSPX is neither the Faith nor the Church.  It is sinful to give scandal, but it is also sin to take scandal.  St. Paul says to be angry but sin not.  Don't allow the sun to go down on your wrath.  Pray often to forgive this man.

    Also, know your experience with the SSPX, the priests, or those to whom the priests give power are by no means one of a kind.  I was booted out of an SSPX chapel in 2014 because I attended a few private Masses said by an expelled SSPX priest whose family happen to be long-time family friends.  I also got blamed by a group of women who more or less rule the priest for writing a rude letter to Fr. Rostand, then the US District Superior.  The rumor was based upon my having been seen placing an envelope addressed to Fr. Rostand in the collection basket.  The claim was ludicrous because the letter contained a request and stipend for Gregorian Masses for my aunt.  Someone from the chapel did indeed have a dispute with Fr. Rostand, but since she is wealthy, socially and politically prominent, the priest or someone higher up didn't want the "scandal" and loss of income it would cause, should she be outed.  How much easier to blame a relative newcomer, a convert from Protestantism, unknown, and "poor."  (I put poor in quotes as nearly everyone in the chapel was well-off, owners of one or more homes, new vehicles, living in up-scale neighborhoods.  By contrast, I live in a rented room three flights above a store in a not so great neighborhood.  I have a 14 year old car with dents, but it runs well!  I lack for nothing really needed, so I don't consider myself in poverty.)  

    Both matters came to a head in October of 2014 when I was told by the head Sacristan that I should not come to Mass because I'd caused scandal to come on the chapel.  I've stayed home ever since, praying the Rosary, keeping up with the readings, getting sermons on line, keeping the Faith as best I can by myself.  There is no more Resistance Mass in my area, and no other choice but the novus ordo.
    For about three months, I was very depressed. On Sunday I'd drive to some secluded spot to pray, but end up crying, so I just went home.  
    Eventually, I realized I'd taken scandal by allowing unjust people to separate me from God.  I confessed this to OurLord, made as close as I could of an act of perfect contrition, and got on with it.  I will continue until and if Our Lady opens a door to a normal Catholic life.

    OP, you've exhausted your resources.  Let go of the man and his money.  Forgive him, offer your loss up, and get on with being Catholic.  Sometimes it is necessary to literally "shake the dust off your sandals" and walk away.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: We are in a real quandary!
    « Reply #6 on: December 17, 2018, 09:34:22 PM »
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  • Don't put your faith in men (sspx) put your faith in God.  He will be judged, and Hell is very hot this time of year.  People who scam the elderly are some of the worst scum of the world.  Trust in God, and talk to a lawyer about getting some of your $9,000 back.  Most ATV accidents are a couple thousand, I mean a brand new ATV is less than $9,000.  Maybe also tell other parishioners what happened and they can pressure him into giving you some of your money back.  The sspx might not help but your other parishioners could help.  Don't lose your faith, money is nothing, God's sight is forever.  

    From the OP's narrative, when he stated that the man pocketed $5,000 after doing the repairs himself, it sounded as if the parts cost him $4,000.  So this was more than a couple-thousand-dollar repair here.  Presumably he did a significant amount of labor as well, in having performed the repairs himself.  Whether it amounted to $5,000 can be disputed.  Was there an estimate from a repair shop produced which indicated that it would cost $9,000?  If so, the man was probably entitled to the $9,000 ... even if in charity he should have reduced the labor amount significantly in having done it himself.  Perhaps the labor was not significant, and it was mostly about parts ... though it doesn't sound like it if $4,000 parts were applied.  So we probably don't have enough detail here to give an informed opinion.  Or did he reduce the amount by using sub-standard or off-brand parts?  Even in that case, he would be strictly entitled to the full value of genuine parts.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: We are in a real quandary!
    « Reply #7 on: December 17, 2018, 09:40:31 PM »
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  • The money he was paid was supposed to be used for the repairs which he never did. He fixed it himself and pocketed over $5000.

    So he DID in fact do the repairs.  What he did not do was take it into the shop that had quoted him the $9,000.  Instead he spent $4,000 on parts (just doing the math here) and did the labor himself.


    Offline trad123

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    Re: We are in a real quandary!
    « Reply #8 on: December 17, 2018, 09:59:07 PM »
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  • Was there an estimate from a repair shop produced which indicated that it would cost $9,000?

    I don't watch judge shows often; always ask for an estimate.

    http://sanantonio.trackerboatcenter.com/atv/

    I bet that $9,000 doesn't take depreciation into account.
    2 Corinthians 4:3-4

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline poche

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    Re: We are in a real quandary!
    « Reply #9 on: December 18, 2018, 12:05:24 AM »
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  • I will pray for you.
    :pray: :pray: :pray:

    Offline Maria Regina

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    Re: We are in a real quandary!
    « Reply #10 on: December 18, 2018, 02:15:37 AM »
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  • Maria,

    No, I can't contact the insurance company since it's too late. He already got his $9000 and he was relying on my ignorance of the law, therefore, the threats and intimidation. He knew full well what he was doing. I'm 70 years old, retired, and my wife suffered a stroke about six years ago. He knew all this but he didn't give a brass farthing. We had to take the money out of our home equity line and when I asked the bloke for a receipt for the repairs he told me to bugger off that the estimate was all I need for a receipt. What a sick, sick, joke since he never had it repaired in the first place. I just bumped into some pine bushes, I wasn't hurt but all he cared about was his machine. He cussed and swore at me and claimed that I had ruined his hunting season. I don't know how since he had another ATV. This blighter is a certified narcissist. And this from a phoney "Third Order Franciscan" and a Sacristan to add to the insult. But no help from the SSPX as they don't care either.
    Could this be a case of elder abuse?
    Lord have mercy.


    Offline dymphnaw

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    Re: We are in a real quandary!
    « Reply #11 on: December 18, 2018, 12:03:55 PM »
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  • Why do people continually try to involve their priest in their secular affairs? You chose to pay the man what he asked for. Why drag Father and the rest of the chapel into it? You say the man scammed you. The man says you paid him what you owed him. How can you ask the priest to get rid of the sacristan because of your legal matter? Catholics are not Jehovahs Witnesses. The entire parish doesn't join in shunning and punishing wayward parishioners. 

    Offline Nadir

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    Re: We are in a real quandary!
    « Reply #12 on: December 18, 2018, 01:12:58 PM »
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  • Why do people continually try to involve their priest in their secular affairs? You chose to pay the man what he asked for. Why drag Father and the rest of the chapel into it? You say the man scammed you. The man says you paid him what you owed him. How can you ask the priest to get rid of the sacristan because of your legal matter? Catholics are not Jehovahs Witnesses. The entire parish doesn't join in shunning and punishing wayward parishioners.
    You are right. I was thinking the same. These things happen in cults!

    Offline Vintagewife3

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    Re: We are in a real quandary!
    « Reply #13 on: December 18, 2018, 06:36:24 PM »
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  • If the restraining order was a lie. Why can’t you be a sacristan? 

    Offline Spork

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    Re: We are in a real quandary!
    « Reply #14 on: December 25, 2018, 08:49:47 PM »
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  • If you were in a Resistance chapel, none of this would happen. Because, holy!

     

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