Author Topic: Was St. Joseph alive when the Magi adored Jesus? (Read 2195 times)

Matthew · « **on:** January 04, 2016, 07:54:41 PM »

I remember reading a Catholic commentary (or perhaps it was a concordance of the Gospels) which mentioned that there was some disagreement among theologians whether or not St. Joseph was alive when the Magi came.

After all, Scripture does mention Jesus, Mary, and is curiously silent about St. Joseph.

On the other hand, it's quite obvious that St. Joseph was alive when Jesus was 12, for the "Finding in the temple" which is the reading for next Sunday, the Feast of the Holy Family.

Does anyone have the concordance (or commentary) handy?

This isn't something I read from a Modernist or a Novus Ordo seminary; this was a Catholic, very old, classic book with an imprimatur.

It was so many years ago, I'm having a hard time remembering what exactly it said about the topic.

Dolores · « **Reply #1 on:** January 04, 2016, 08:59:35 PM »

St. Joseph must have been alive when the Magi adored Our Lord. The Bible is clear that an angel appeared in a dream to St. Joseph after the Magi departed to warn of the Massacre of the Innocents (Matthew 2:13), and also later appeared to St. Joseph when it was safe for the Holy Family to leave Egypt and return home (Matthew 2:19-20).

I do recall, however, a sermon from a past Epiphany Mass that touched on this issue somewhat. According to the sermon, while the prevailing opinion is that the Magi came shortly after Christ's birth, there is a minority opinion that the Magi may not have come and adored Our Lord for up to two years after His birth. This comes from the fact that in Massacre of the Innocents, Herod decreed the deaths of all male children up to two years old.

Matthew · « **Reply #2 on:** January 04, 2016, 09:30:54 PM »

Sometimes these commentaries would pose questions or possibilities, and then give the most correct or widely believed answer. Sometimes a question or belief would be brought up, only to be quickly dismantled or dismissed.

The problem is, I remember reading some interesting discussion about St. Joseph, the Magi, and the timing of it all, but it was many years ago, so it's kind of fuzzy.

Matthew · « **Reply #3 on:** January 04, 2016, 09:34:40 PM »

[11] And entering into the house, they found the child with Mary his mother, and falling down they adored him; and opening their treasures, they offered him gifts; gold, frankincense, and myrrh. [12] And having received an answer in sleep that they should not return to Herod, they went back another way into their country. [13] And after they were departed, behold an angel of the Lord appeared in sleep to Joseph, saying: Arise, and take the child and his mother, and fly into Egypt: and be there until I shall tell thee. For it will come to pass that Herod will seek the child to destroy him. [14] Who arose, and took the child and his mother by night, and retired into Egypt: and he was there until the death of Herod: [15] That it might be fulfilled which the Lord spoke by the prophet, saying: Out of Egypt have I called my son.

I guess I should rephrase my question:

It's obvious that St. Joseph was still alive in verse 13, so WHY did Holy Scripture specifically mention "the child with Mary his mother" in verse 11?

Perhaps this was one of the problems/questions addressed by the commentary in question (which might have been Life of Christ by Fillion), but I've forgotten the answer.

poche · « **Reply #4 on:** January 04, 2016, 10:42:13 PM »

How could Joseph have been warned to flee into Egypt after the coming of the Magi if he were already dead?

Matthew · « **Reply #5 on:** January 04, 2016, 11:26:54 PM »

Quote from: poche

How could Joseph have been warned to flee into Egypt after the coming of the Magi if he were already dead?

Like I said,

Quote

It's obvious that St. Joseph was still alive in verse 13, so WHY did Holy Scripture specifically mention "the child with Mary his mother" in verse 11?

Does anyone know the official Catholic interpretation on why St. Joseph might have been not mentioned in verse 11?

Or is it just a mystery?

Nadir · « **Reply #6 on:** January 05, 2016, 02:19:00 AM »

I doubt there is any need for an official Catholic interpretation on why St. Joseph might have been not mentioned in verse 11.

Wouldn't the protector of the family have already greeted and assessed strange visitors before allowing them to enter the house?

poche · « **Reply #7 on:** January 05, 2016, 03:34:23 AM »

I have heard that the lack of mention in the Bible sometimes is done to highlight the hidden life. He was mentioned when it was necessary but then he kept silent. this silence and hiddenness is what brings us closer to God.
Like when Elijah went to encounter God. there was the wind, and the fire, and the earthquake. But God was in n none of these. Then there was silence. And in the silence Elijah hid himself, because God was present.

Stubborn · « **Reply #8 on:** January 05, 2016, 05:15:35 AM »

According to Venerable Mary Agreda's City of God volume 3, St. Joseph died at the age of 60, Our Lady was 42, which would mean Our Lord was 26 or 27 I think.

Quote

175. The most fortunate of men, saint Joseph, reached an age of sixty years and a few days. For at the age of thirty-three he espoused the blessed Virgin and he lived with Her a little longer than twenty-seven years as her husband. When saint Joseph died, She had completed the half of her forty-second year; for She was espoused to saint Joseph at the age of fourteen (as stated in the first part, book second, chapter twenty-second). The twenty-seven years of her married life completed her forty-first year, to which must be added the time from the eighth of September until the death of her blessed spouse.

Volume 2 mentions St. Joseph as being present:

Quote

559. On leaving Jerusalem the Magi again found the star, which at their entrance they had lost from view. By its light they were conducted to Bethlehem and to the cave of the Nativity. Diminishing in size it hovered over the head of the infant Jesus and bathed Him in its light; whereupon the matter of which it had been composed dissolved and disappeared. Our great Queen had already been prepared by the Lord for the coming of the Kings, and when She understood that they were approaching the cave, She requested saint Joseph not to leave it, but to stay at her side. This he did, although the sacred text does not mention it. Like many other things passed over in the Gospels, this was not necessary for establishing the truth of the mystery. Nevertheless it is certain that saint Joseph was present when the Kings adored the infant Jesus. The precaution of sending him away was not necessary; for the Magi had already been instructed that the Mother of the Newborn was a Virgin, and that He was the true God and not a son of saint Joseph. Nor would God have permitted them to be led to the cave ignorant of such an important
circuмstance as his origin, allowing them to adore the Child as the son of Joseph and of a Mother not a Virgin. They were fully instructed as to all these things, and they were deeply impressed by the sacramental character of all these exalted and complicated mysteries.

richard · « **Reply #9 on:** January 05, 2016, 05:15:44 AM »

Quote from: Matthew

[11] And entering into the house, they found the child with Mary his mother, and falling down they adored him; and opening their treasures, they offered him gifts; gold, frankincense, and myrrh. [12] And having received an answer in sleep that they should not return to Herod, they went back another way into their country. [13] And after they were departed, behold an angel of the Lord appeared in sleep to Joseph, saying: Arise, and take the child and his mother, and fly into Egypt: and be there until I shall tell thee. For it will come to pass that Herod will seek the child to destroy him. [14] Who arose, and took the child and his mother by night, and retired into Egypt: and he was there until the death of Herod: [15] That it might be fulfilled which the Lord spoke by the prophet, saying: Out of Egypt have I called my son.

I guess I should rephrase my question:

It's obvious that St. Joseph was still alive in verse 13, so WHY did Holy Scripture specifically mention "the child with Mary his mother" in verse 11?

Perhaps this was one of the problems/questions addressed by the commentary in question (which might have been Life of Christ by Fillion), but I've forgotten the answer.

Maybe St.Joseph wasn't home at the time,he could have been making arrangements for travel or working at his trade.

Marie Teresa · « **Reply #10 on:** January 05, 2016, 07:49:31 AM »

Quote from: richard

Quote from: Matthew
[11] And entering into the house, they found the child with Mary his mother, and falling down they adored him; and opening their treasures, they offered him gifts; gold, frankincense, and myrrh. [12] And having received an answer in sleep that they should not return to Herod, they went back another way into their country. [13] And after they were departed, behold an angel of the Lord appeared in sleep to Joseph, saying: Arise, and take the child and his mother, and fly into Egypt: and be there until I shall tell thee. For it will come to pass that Herod will seek the child to destroy him. [14] Who arose, and took the child and his mother by night, and retired into Egypt: and he was there until the death of Herod: [15] That it might be fulfilled which the Lord spoke by the prophet, saying: Out of Egypt have I called my son.

I guess I should rephrase my question:

It's obvious that St. Joseph was still alive in verse 13, so WHY did Holy Scripture specifically mention "the child with Mary his mother" in verse 11?

Perhaps this was one of the problems/questions addressed by the commentary in question (which might have been Life of Christ by Fillion), but I've forgotten the answer.

Maybe St.Joseph wasn't home at the time,he could have been making arrangements for travel or working at his trade.

Yes, or maybe he was there but Matthew just didn't happen to mention him? Or maybe Joseph met them outside or answered the door and let them in, and they found the Child with Mary His mother in a room in the house? Maybe the Evangelist wanted to emphasize that we will always find Jesus "with Mary His mother." A popular Christmas motif is:

I remember a priest mentioning that he saw a spin on it once, using the Gospel above, that said, "Wise men still find Him with Mary His mother."

I wish I knew how to put words on a picture like so many do; I'd put that line on the bottom picture: "Wise men still find Him with Mary His mother."

Ladislaus · « **Reply #11 on:** January 05, 2016, 10:04:10 AM »

Yeah, there's zero question that St. Joseph was alive. Sounds like nothing but a Jesuitical exercise that can lead to nothing but confusion.

confederate catholic · « **Reply #12 on:** January 05, 2016, 03:27:50 PM »

the explanation that i read from some one or other of the fathers was that the Magi (pagans) would have inferred the Paternity of Joseph, so to emphasize the miraculous nature of his birth God did not have Joseph there when they visited.......... :scratchchin:

TKGS · « **Reply #13 on:** January 05, 2016, 04:12:30 PM »

I have read commentaries that suggest that the Magi may have visited shortly after the birth of Jesus or as long as two years after his birth, which might explain why King Herod ordered the death of all male children up to two years old.

In the latter case, it is theorized that after traveling to Bethlehem for the census, Saint Joseph found that there was a lot of work for a man of his skills and elected to remain in Bethlehem, thus, though Jesus was born in a stable, by the time the Magi arrived, the Holy Family was living in a house. The scriptures are silent about Saint Joseph being present when the Magi arrive for one of two reasons: 1) his presence at that moment really isn't important to the Scriptural account; or 2) he may have been working his trade as a carpenter at the precise moment that the Magi arrived and wasn't in the house.

But I like confederate catholic's explanation as to why his presence was not recorded in Scripture. In any event, the Holy Ghost thinks of everything.

Matthew · « **Reply #14 on:** January 05, 2016, 05:07:37 PM »

Thank you for all your contributions. Whenever I become aware of a particular hole in my knowledge of the Catholic Faith, I like to do my best to rectify that deficiency.

Thank you again.